Family Values

[Teamedup]

I wish someone would explain that to me. I hear brits say, I like french good family values and I don't understand. Doesn't anyone else have them?

 

Last night we held our AGM for the club I help run. We had one parent who came along who wasn't a member of the bureau. We used to have 12 members of the bureau, and that is now down to 4, two of us with no children participating in the sport. There are forty kids who are members of our club.

What was said was that many parents consider our club as a rather cheap garderie. We have real problems getting our members to participate in competitions now and for all the children say they would like to participate in competitions, the parents say no, some of the reasons are that they can't be bothered to get up, have something else planned, or simply can't be bothered at all. And even when the kids do go to the competitions, we end up with some not being picked up as the parents forget or are at an apero and come later. We benevoles can wait up to a couple of hours for parents to turn up at the end of a long day.

 

So please let us discuss family values and why the parents who dump their kids with our assoc don't seem to have them, or do they?

[Nick Trollope]

Perhaps it is more about inheritance?

Judging by the number of toddlers I see running about the roads or unsecured in a car, or, as TU says dumped on someone else, perhaps French "family values" look up...

Discuss.

 

[Mysfloss]

Define family values first maybe(any country)

[Teamedup]

Myfloss that is what I want to know, what they are, in view of the fact that I have been called a Maman Poule on many occassions here.

[Clarkkent]

I hear brits say, I like french good family values and I don't understand.

It appears to be one of those supposed characteristics of life in France (like universal politeness and nonexistant crime) that cause people who are unhappy with their life in Britain to imagine that they would be less unhappy in France. How people know what goes on in other people's lives is a mystery to me.

I suppose the good family values are responsible for the reported incidence of one French housewife being beaten to death each week.

[chicfille]

My experience of "family values" here in France varies widely from the vast, lovely, welcoming and close extended family (a rarity) to those that see family as a closed and private circle, impenetrable to outsiders.

As for extending a caring attitude onto other people's children, this is not something I associate particularly with France. Children are dispatched to crèches and childminders at a very early age, then in often very large classes in maternelle, garderies etc for at least 8 hours a day. What I'm saying is that children are generally cared for by people outside the family circle from a young age. Busy parents prefer to pay up for childcare and clubs without getting involved unless they feel the need to complain.

Another thing that springs to mind is the attitude to strangers and their children. When I saw a mother running frantically around a hypermarket one day, calling desperately for her young son who had wandered off, the only people who looked even remotely bothered were the staff. Thankfully he was found by a staff member, but the shoppers' lack of reaction shocked me.

My general feeling is that society is as much a case of every man for himself here as it is in the UK, and in some cases, more so.

[Deby]

When I saw a mother running frantically around a hypermarket one day, calling desperately for her young son who had wandered off..

It was probably me who you saw !

Yes, I have pondered this on many ocassions.  I think 'family values'  french-style mean that children are well behaved, give out the bisoux and are well mannered and do not ask questions. This what I have generally observed from French children.

I quite like these things, but are they gained at a price?  Sometimes I nickname french children Stepford children as they tend to be a bit robotic.  The bisoux are forced upon and children are trained at a young age but that is french culture and I shouldn't really be crass about it.

I think family values also mean that families are more maternal in a cultural sense, i.e they sit down for meals at the same time and spend some free-time together as a family, e.g. Sundays, public holidays - usually eating. This is what I would deem a maternal society which is probably what people mean when they talk about family values.  Conversley in Italy, it is a more paternal society where the father generally is head of the family and respect is revered and centred towards him leading the family. The italians are also deemed to have family values too.

TU, is that an answer to your question? 

Deby

 

[Teamedup]

I agree with several of the posters. True the bisoux is a way of life, but kids are not always well behaved. Has anyone else heard the one about grandparents using a fouette on bad grandchildren. That was what was said when we first got here, a few people told me about it, but I don't know whether it ever happened, maybe just the idea a deterrent. 

And that leaves me with french family values as just being a bit of a myth and  there are good parents and bad parents here like everywhere else, just as there are good children and bad children too.

Twice this week the subject of women being beaten has come up, women in our village, women I know. As always sad and one especially as she was our neighbour, and they were such good neighbours and I'm sure that it wasn't happening when they lived next door, but that was a long time ago.

[opas]

Family values as they were instilled in me and my sister  are that you are polite to adults and do not interupt a conversation. Sundays were definatly a family day and we did not ask to go out and call for friends, we visited the park with our mum or if dad was on a day off(shift pattern )then we would go out in the car . Meals were always eaten together at table, an event that would be rarely broken by my mum in wintertime when we would have a fireside tea of toast(on the coal fire) and home made scones.

The longer we are here the more I realise that (in our village anyway) the french family life, as the brits are led to believe, are a farce.

We are regularly knocked on at mealtimes(when the children have told their friends we are eating) to see if they are finished...5 mins after sitting down.

We have their different friends of varrying ages to meals and their table manners are appaling , from not knowing how to use a knife and fork together( yes I know this has been covered!) to twitching about in their chairs (not a formal dinner ...just lunchtime 20 minite one!) slurping drinks, and trying to play hide and seek under the table!

Then you have the school concerts and the other meetings where the parents are asked to see some special work that the children have done, these are normally quite a reasonable time ,7 pm ish...the show of parents is sad to say the least, yes I know they work, but havn`t their children,? it is usually only for about an hour...now that is family values to me, suporting one another!

As a whole the people we know are polite, the `youths` bonjour us and not intimidate us in a group. Our neighbours are kind  and the older end will ask to `borrow ` Mr Os muscles on occassion, but like anywhere we have the nuisance ones, the parents who let their 11 year old out till 1.30 in the morning along with his bande. The parents who go out every saturday night at 11pm and leave their 7 year old to fend for himself, and the new neighbours who are completely gutting the house en face and seem to think that because we have double galzing that we cannot hear the hammer drill at 2 in the  morning.

No great philosophy from me, just think that times are changing.

Mrs O

[Pantouflard]

I wish someone would explain that to me. I hear brits say, I like french good family values and I don't understand. Doesn't anyone else have them?

Surely, it's the usual old thing.  See a family behave in a particular way for a few minutes and extrapolate it to how a whole nation behaves all the time.

[Miki]

[quote]I wish someone would explain that to me. I hear brits say, I like french good family values and I don't understand. Doesn't anyone else have them? Surely, it's the usual old thing. See a family be...[/quote]

".....Surely, it's the usual old thing. See a family behave in a particular way for a few minutes and extrapolate it to how a whole nation behaves all the time"

Couldn't put it much better than that and you can very much use that phrase as an example for so much of what is supposedly so much better here, than in the UK.

[Patf]

There seem to be more grandparents looking after children , I suppose because their parents are at work, than in uk. Perhaps because they can't afford creche. Pat.

[Mistral]

There seem to be more grandparents looking after children , I suppose because their parents are at work, than in uk. Perhaps because they can't afford creche. Pat

More probably because there aren't any places at the creche and because grandparents are free. Creche prices are generally income-related and you get some money taken off your taxes, but in some towns you have to put your child down on the waiting list at conception and in more rural areas they sometimes only have very small creches because they can't get the staff.

I think this has got something to do with french "family values" When my sister had her first child, my mum told her that she was definately available for babysitting and helping out, but no way was she going to be unpaid childcare. When I had my first child my in-laws seriously talked about looking after him even if they live 45 minutes away from us (we hadn't contemplated it for a minute) My sister in law took a year before she applied for a creche place because she assumed that her parents would look after the baby (and they still do 4 years on)

Maybe I'm cynical but I've always seen it as the older generation not being able to let go of their children. I know so many people who go on about how they have to help/support .... their children. I expect to be told the child in question is in their early teens and have a shock when I'm told they are in their thirties.

[chicfille]

Absolutely, Mistral. Parents seem to cling to their children for dear life much more than they do in the UK, which can eventually push them away. Children, especially boys, often seem to be brought up deliberately dependent on their mothers - few of our male friends knew much about money, laundry or cooking until they finally left home (some not until nearly 30), when their exasperated other halves had to teach them about real life while their mothers tutted "she's not good enough for my son" under their breath!

And a number of these friends avoid visiting their families or only go under duress because these "family values" often seem to boil down to a lot of obligation to do what is expected of them and guilt if they don't. 

[Mistral]

And a number of these friends avoid visiting their families or only go under duress because these "family values" often seem to boil down to a lot of obligation to do what is expected of them and guilt if they don't. 

Are you sure you haven't met my husband??

 His parents brought him up to know how to cook, clean, but they didn't want him to be independant. They had (still have and he's 39) enormous trouble letting go. And yes, the result is the heavy feeling of obligation. He visits them because he feels he ought to not because he wants to.

Actually, I was thinking of a colleague who has no spare money at all because her son (late twenties) is a student in Paris "and you understand, he has so much work and he should enjoy himself in the little spare time he has" and another who works part time but "may go back to full time when her son is older and doesn't need her so much" He's 17.

[Tourangelle]

I can see why you didn't consider your in-laws for long term child-care duty!

It seems to me that there are two diametrically opposed schools of thought in France when it comes to child care, either they put the child in a nursery from about three months, or they stop all other activity until he/she is at least at college, with absolutely no happy medium.

[chicfille]

Are you sure you haven't met my husband??

Unlikely Mistral, but mine is just the same (except that I acquired him without any domestic or practical knowledge whatsoever!). He telephones when he thinks he should, which is not often, we visit only very rarely and don't particularly enjoy it when we do. But we must pretend to, like we must feign interest when the ma-in-law spends hours whingeing about assorted inconveniences, including how difficult it is having three of her four children (aged between 26 and 31) still dependent on them. Wonder why that is...?!

I think some of the perceived closeness of French families may be linked to the fact that most school leavers go on to attend their nearest university. Those that cannot commute daily go home every weekend, so no real independence is developed. When they finish their studies and can't find work they go straight home, look for work locally because wages are so low they couldn't afford their own place, and hey presto, they are still either living with or at least financially dependent on their parents well into their twenties and thirties.

[Val_2]

To be completely honest I have not noticed much difference at all in the way the french families behave compared to UK families. Many parents here, it seems to me, get rid of their kids as early as they can to get to work and then leave them either in the garderie,with grandparents or on their own from the close of the school day until they arrive between 6-7pm. I was and still am shocked at how the mothers here go off to work and leave their kids from the primaire to come home by themselves and stay indoors until they arrive. My neighbour thought nothing of strapping her babies down in their cot inside those bag things whilst she went out shopping, I used to worry terribly in case there was fire. Family values to me are what you have instilled in you from a young age and what you pass onto your kids.There will always be families all over the world who don't give a monkeys about family life and that will never change. Kids here can be just as obnoxious as UK kids when told to go and play elsewhere with a football and look at the attacks on each other in the big collèges and Lycées.