The good old days

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Yes, TU and, M'ssieurs Dames, the craze it is only starting ! (as Poirot would say). Seems to me that 12/15 yrs ago most Brits would put some thorough planning into their big continental moves. Now, 100's appear on telly on these sunny climes conveyor belt types of progs (about 3/4 progs a day in the winter !) almost proudly announcing to the world that 'well, they've never really been to France proper before but they thought it could be the right move for them' !!! Would they consider renting before moving there lock, stock and wine barrel ? -Bah, na, what for ? it's just the same country really, just the lingo's different, that's it !

[Teamedup]

We didn't plan, I must admit it. But as a youngish couple with no kids and there was a job for my husband, that was essential and the most important thing there was skiing in the best ski resorts in the world within easy driving distance (just my humble opinion ofcourse) it sounded just right for us. Expensive though, there again everything was here in 1981. If we hadn't liked it we would have moved on or back. Husband was here within weeks, me a little  later. We came on a whim, no planning whatsoever and were 'unusual' at the time.

Vraititi, weren't you unusual too when you moved in the other direction.

I do bear in mind what we did. But I can't understand why there  has been this mass emigration really and who is coming, is it the power of tv?

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Like you, my move to the UK was pretty much on a wing and a prayer: no job, no address, no dosh, a clapped out 2CV and an army holdall, just the vague promise of a hand-to-mouth job in a Morrocan boui-boui on the coast. Status wise, I was not unusual, most male Frenchies here at the time were perfume or wine reps, reject chefs or part-time vagrants. Number wise, well, maybe, I suppose, there were less than 10,000 registered (at the French embassy) Frenchies in the UK (175,000 now + an estimated extra 150,000 non registered). But 2 yrs later I was unusual all right, as a graduate French teacher in Hartlepool, and in more ways than one ! 

 

[SaligoBay]

 Mistral, you wicked woman!!!!

Strangely enough (and I'm feverishly massaging a HUGE piece of wood to smoking point here), Mr SB and I manage to remain in good health, at least physically if not mentally.  It's all the rest who cause the problems. 

The subject of guests is, of course, deserving of a thread of its very own.......

[Teamedup]

Lots of my sons friends have travelled all over the place. They have all without exception returned to France.

I am starting to wonder if any members of our family know you? Teachers in Hartlepool and all that. A place that has improved almost beyond recognition over the last 10 years and a place that we will have to visit again when we are back next time. Hartlepool and a french man, you, ofcourse know the story

[Christine Animal]

Vraititi, how long have you been in England?  You don't seem to mind it over there.

TU, you have been here a while and like me still can't quite grasp this present exodus, at least not the extent of it.  Someone told me they are not only leaving for France, of course there is Spain, but also Bulgaria, etc. as long as they can "get out".

Christine 

[Teamedup]

Christine A, my very first post on here was 'why are you all moving to France' or something along those lines. I was subjected to a near public flogging for such heresy. I was attacked on all fronts by many of the then posters, not all thank goodness. Then a self appointed knight in shining armour decided to protect the honour of the board from people such as myself and posted my full name, address and telephone number,  his belief was that that should happen to trolls who know nothing about France. Logic obviously escaped him  he had posted my french address, and as I lived in France, maybe I did know something about France.

 

I still don't understand. I'm too hot to post my thoughts as to perhaps why. And I really couldn't face the lambasting that I have had in the past, well not tonight anyway.

[Christine Animal]

Désolée TU! Hey, TU is tu.  Je ne comprends pas tellement.  If you can't ask a plain question and receive a plain answer.  I have nothing to hide, I don't even have a pseudo...  Let's just forget it then.

[Teamedup]

Sorry Christine A. What I was saying was that I still don't understand and when I asked, I was blasted.

And I still don't understand. Just the idea of looking to France as some sort of saviour or eden amazes me. And it amazes me because I just see the France I live in and lots of things aren't that different to where I am from in the UK.

I am sorry I can't be clearer, I would love it to be clear to me. But that is as likely as me leaving my doors unlocked when I go out or at bedtime.

Does that make any sense. Maybe someone can give you some reasons, I can't and wish I could.

[Hegs]

>Someone told me they are not only leaving for France, of course there is Spain, but also Bulgaria, etc. as long as they can "get out".

Remember the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia too. From memory France is actually a fair way down the list in terms of actual numbers.

>TU, you have been here a while and like me still can't quite grasp this present exodus, at least not the extent of it.

It's not rocket science. This is quite an interesting read on why people want to leave: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FQP/is_4699_133/ai_n6156974

"As to why they are leaving, 30 per cent mention work but 51 per cent give "other" reasons.

These are not hard to find. A survey in Emigrate magazine found that roughly three-quarters of potential emigrants think quality of life in Britain is deteriorating. The YouGov poll cited crime, council taxes, congested roads, lack of space. Eighty-five per cent thought Britain was "grinding to a halt". ICM added a few more reasons to be miserable: bad weather, long working hours, regional unemployment, high house prices."

The other side of the coin is the economic and structural factors that make emigration easier these days: high equity levels in the UK, EU single market, remote working, the internet, cheap phone calls, cheap flights, Eurostar, general increase in mobility especially in young europeans.

Personally I think the house price issue is driving this a lot more than realized from both the push and the pull. What are the young people completely priced out of buying any sort of home, full stop, in 91% of towns in the UK going to do when they want to settle down and have a family? Until the UK gives them some kind of hope, they are going to be thinking of emigrating.

[Alexis]

We have three immobiliers in our small town now and we were just saying the other day that things are slowing down.  Houses seem to be on the market for ages.

Saying that, you have to push your way through the crowds of English people looking in the windows at the adverts.  They do seem to be younger too, with small children.  I had to kick loads of ankle biters into the road to pass

[Patf]

As Hegs says, the cost of houses in uk has a lot to do with it. Even confining the argument to retirees, probably many would be happy with a little country cottage in the uk, as my parents were in the 60-70s and as we would have been. Now this is unaffordable. France is only a step away from uk, and we are both in the EU, so why not look for a place there? I also think that we as an island nation have always had more of a wanderlust than other europeans. Pat. ps connection to "the old days"- why do people continue to come to live in France after all the off-putting messages on the forum?

[bixy]

Vraititi, as a would-be sociologist I'm also fascinated by the movement of people to France. In fact I can't wait to hear what I'm going to say next. I'll try to answer your questions. I'm not in fact yet resident in france but spend about 4 months a year there. When we first bought our house there - 10 years ago - the other Brits we encountered were what you would expect - mainly middle class, professional types. For them speaking half way decent French, having French friends, "integrating" was important.

In the last few years something new has happened. Our French banker friend summed this up when he described the people more recently coming over as being of a "nouvelle gamme". They are generally people who you would not describe as a middle class, not highly educated, not speaking French or speaking it very little. Very practical people - not the least daunted by the most major renovations or, apparently, the French planning process [I wonder how many bother with planning permission]. I get the impression that they are not the least bit interested in/knowledgable about French culture. What matters to them is the bbq and the swimmimg pool. The thing is that these are the people that the SAS might sneer at and say "they'll never manage, can't even speak the language". But in my experience they manage perfectly well. Another fascinating aspect of this from the would be sociologist point of view is that they bring their own networks. No sooner does one family/couple come over than they are quickly joined by other friends or relatives who also make the move and come and live nearby. This, no doubt, must be partly the reason they manage so well. In all the above I make no criticism - each to his own and good luck to them.

Your questions 2 and 3. What do they say about the French? I don't think they're the least bit interested in the French. And no they don't seem to be at all concerned about their lack of French language.

Qu 4 I don't know anybody who intends to rely on the French benefits system.

Qu 5 Are the SASs really integrated. Mmmm there's a question. I really wonder about this. Can you ever have that real intimacy of friendship with people of another culture and language? The answer is I don't know. Those who are long term settled in France can answer that one.

So, Vraititi is that enough to be going on with?

Patrick

[Christine Animal]

[quote]Sorry Christine A. What I was saying was that I still don't understand and when I asked, I was blasted. And I still don't understand. Just the idea of looking to France as some sort of saviour or ed...[/quote]

TU, sorry, I did understand what you were trying to say, it was the situation I was referring to, not you (and then you didn't quite get what I was trying to say....!).

Hegs.  Thank you for kindly stepping in and trying to explain things.  The roads, how many times have I heard about that M25!  I suppose all those things put together make one big reason to leave.  It's perhaps that TU and I have been out of it for so long that it's rather difficult for us to perceive.  Thanks Hegs.

[Tresco]

coming in to this late, so back to the original Q to start with. About the forum, in her original question here SB said

What happened to all the rose-tinted loonies who were soooooo defensive about France?   The slightest suggestion that there might be a tiny imperfection in their dream country, and wallop, they'd hit you with the dreaded "if it's so bad, why don't you go back where you came from?".

SB we saw an example of this not long ago, the thread entitled 'getting cold feet' in Education. 

It was a classic, multiple questions about complex and personal issues, all underpinned by how  pollution, crime, and drug free France is, and when some people started to question the poster she and a couple of others ripped their teddies arms off before chucking them right out of the cot. They did this by deleting all their own posts, leaving the thread a nonsense so it had to be deleted. So the rose tinteds are alive and kicking (or writhing).

Generally i think the forum goes through phases, It went very very quiet after the change to the new software, and it seems a bit quiet at the moment too. I've noticed the 'fluffy side' is very quiet too. Also I think there have been some great newish arrivals here recently, Christine A, FurryNix, Deimos, and Vraititi all stand out to me, a mixed bag I know, and this list is not exhaustive.

[SaligoBay]

It's perhaps that TU and I have been out of it for so long that it's rather difficult for us to perceive. 

Is it also perhaps that people see different things, depending on their interests, and their level in French?

The good old media, for example.  You don't realise just how fast your brain picks things up in your own language - a quick visit to the corner shop for milk, but on the way in past the papers your brain has read the murder/corruption/Blair/NHS headlines without you even realising it.

At first in French, you can't do this, and ignorance truly is bliss.  I'm a voracious and indiscriminate reader (there's always something to be learned!), and you know, the news is not so different between the 2 countries.   Does Courneuve say anything to you?   A dead child shot by a stray bullet, estates where the flics are scared to go?   And if you watch the news at holiday time, are you really not impressed by 80km tailbacks of Parisians going on holiday?

The difference is that the French don't make the connection "Bad things happen in France, therefore France is a dreadful place, and it's not surprising that so many French people leave". 

I do think that Britain would be a better place if they adopted the fine idea of aperitifs.   Would you like France so much if you had apero-free neighbours?   Think about it!      

[Val_2]

Did anyone die at Glastonbury this year from either being murdered or taking a drugs overdose? Well I havn't heard anything so I presume not. However for the rose tinted specs brigade who feel there is no crime of any sort here and there are an awful lot of them here now,there was a Teknival in a very small hamlet,not even a village some 25 miles from here inland  over the last weekend. It was all properly organised,the prefet,the gendarmes,pompiers and other officials all doing the rounds and then hey presto as they clear up on Sunday night, the dead body of an 18-year old girl is found in a tent and murder is the presumed act. Now I wonder what some of these people who have holiday homes or live near there are thinking when the nearest to crime in the UK that they have ever been remotely close to is probably being stopped for speeding in a 30mph zone and yet they refuse to acknowledge the fact that France is no different at all where crimes are concerned. I've forgotten how many times I've been labelled a doom monger on this site and others but I don't care,I have a very thick skin which has grown double thick living in France and if I tell it how it is and folks object,well that's their perogative,but no way am I going to lie and be all sweetness and light making out France is the paradise is jolly well isn't. As regards french people leaving a doing the opposite of what most of us on this site have done,in most cases its to find work and a decent salary as these are getting like hens teeth to find here now especially in country areas. What I do object to is being lumped in with all those brits now coming here and being perceived to be rolling in money, I soon set the score straight on that one with anyone who suggests such a thing and tell them that without people buying property whether they are french,english or vulcan a lot of communes would have disappeared long ago. As regards aperitifs,our neighbour could do without them as he dosn't know when to stop except when his wife's face gets in the way if you know what I mean,but socially,yes I'm all for them and the nibbles too.

[Gine]

Apero free voisins would do my liver a power of good !

You will never change some of the rose tinted brigade. Dare I say that some of them will never admit to France having faults as surely one of the reasons for living here is to make the not so fortunate English friends and relatives a little jealous ?

I like to compare like for like. I work in Paris and London and see bad and good in both. I live in rural England and rural France and see roughly the same there. Difference is price (when earnings come from UK) and weather.

I will retire to France for those 2 reasons, not because France is "better".

[Teamedup]

We have apero free voisins at the moment. There are good reasons for this, very good reasons and I'm happy with it all. We have found ourselves as the ones who talk to everyone, whereas some of our neighbours are not on good terms. We eat with the neighbours we are closest to quite often. The others we just chat to these days and it is all very amicable.

 

The weather, I can't say I find 36° 'nice' or 'good'. I am wilting. I live in the dark and have trouble finding a breath of wind outside, although we have some wonderful shaded areas, it still feels like sitting in an oven. We have two friends who love it. I don't.

[cafeman72<br><br><br>-- <br>Saintes (17) - nope I dont live in Sarthe, 72 is when I was born.]

This new wave/range/class (whatever you call it) of people who have come to France in the past couple of years have done because the relative cost of housing has allowed them to. Were it not for that one simple fact then they would not have. That along with all the TV programs giving them the idea it's a piece of p***. I know a number of newbies (and we are among their number) and this is true for 100% of them. It's not that difficult to imagine... it's a simple truth - I believe

As for the original question about the rose-tinted brigade. I see it like this. Some people need to justify their actions to themselves and others in order to feel good about themselves. Moving to another country is a biggy (for some) and so for them they need to believe that they've made the right decision. If that means wishy-washy thinking with a little bit of ignorance thrown in, then so be it. Live and let live. I don't go around telling people that yes, their bum does look big in that, and while you're at it you could do with losing a few pounds all over. Sometimes it's just down to being civil. A lot of things that are said on a forum would NOT be said in person (or bloody noses would no doubt ensue).

I've been a long time lurker on here (I used to even lurk on the old board). However, I have been forced to register because I wanted to send a private message to someone asking for advice. I hope they don't treat me like an idiot because I'm a newbie who's still enjoying himself over here and has to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the UK whenever I have to go there!

[Weedon]

[quote]This new wave/range/class (whatever you call it) of people who have come to France in the past couple of years have done because the relative cost of housing has allowed them to. Were it not for that...[/quote]

Neatly summed up and agree with everything you say.

weedon

Now back to my lurking.

[Christine Animal]

Cafeman72

We love newbies, lurkers and lurchers.

Welcome!

Christine

[Val_2]

.....and occasionally the odd viscious troll too when they get their knickers in twist. Forums would be dull if we were all identical in thought and ideas.

[cafeman72<br><br><br>-- <br>Saintes (17) - nope I dont live in Sarthe, 72 is when I was born.]

I can feel the lurve, thanks for the welcome

There was something I forgot to add to the above, even though I was thinking it at the time, so it would be rude not to add it now wouldn't it?

Of course, it's also the case that some people need to feel superior by actively putting others down in order to feel good about themselves. I can't say that I'm not immune to this myself (sometimes), which is shameful - but I'm working on it!

OK, back to my handbook on "Self esteem: Yours and others'" hehe

In truth I think this forum is great. Well, actually, I think the people on it are by and large very good people, from whom I have learned a lot. On the other hand, I think the forum software stinks! There, just putting the webmaster down to make myself feel a tinsey bit better ... works for me!

[Tresco]

Well, actually, I think the people on it are by and large very good people, from whom I have learned a lot. On the other hand, I think the forum software stinks!

I agree with both these statements, but Cafeman, I'm so intrigued as to why you registered to send a pm rather than to ask your question on the forum itself.

Well really I am just dying to know what the question was