Land of opportunity

[Viv]

I think it is beyond tosh and bordering on arrogance to say that those who have contributed to this posting know little of French culture etc.

Perhaps, Laotze and Ray, you would like to look at this this link? (You may have to cut and paste). Perhaps these people have got it wrong too

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4105412.stm

[Logan]

[quote]France is stuck in a time-warp where business and daily living is concerned. Nothing changes and new ideas don't seem to be encouraged however good they may be - everyone hangs onto how they have been...[/quote]

Trouble is in life you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The time warp that is France is why I love the country so much. It goes it's own way, holding fast to cultural values of family life and quality of life.

Long may it be so. France is French not anywhere else. 

[Viv]

[quote]Trouble is in life you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The time warp that is France is why I love the country so much. It goes it's own way, holding fast to cultural values of family life and qu...[/quote]

But the quality of life could be a lot better for a lot more, if some changes were implemented. 

Sorry quoted wrong bit

[Miki]

"...Trouble is in life you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The time warp that is France is why I love the country so much. It goes it's own way, holding fast to cultural values of family life and quality of life.Long may it be so. France is French not anywhere else."

Again it really is far too general. No one wants cake, especially the French rubbish (in general, of course) but there are things that some of us would like to see and happen and to be honest, half the British (or other immigrant)folks here in France would not even notice the differences from the safety of their garden and their weekly trip to the local 8€ resto !

This is again surely one talking purely of small village life and sorry, even that is fast disappearing, e.g did the kids parents drink scotch and take drugs in the local bus stop (course that doesn't happen as one doesn't see it, does one !!) As for "France holding fast to family life" well that is really strongly debatable as to wehether it compares to a generation ago and as for quality of life, how does one define that to someone living in a low rent batiment on RMI and with no chance of work ? Or to many village folks who do no better than the SMIC and find life a struggle all the time. Suicide rates which are amongst the highest in the EU. Sorry but people talk from their "little world" within France's countryside that they have bought and anything outside that regime, is dismissed as not relevant (or even not true !), whereas to the REAL inhabitants of France (i.e The French)I am describing life for a huge percentage here today.

[RayB]

[quote]I think it is beyond tosh and bordering on arrogance to say that those who have contributed to this posting know little of French culture etc. Perhaps, Laotze and Ray, you would like to look at this ...[/quote]

**Perhaps, Laotze and Ray, you would like to look at this this link? (You may have to cut and paste). Perhaps these people have got it wrong too**

I think that it is a fairly well-balanced report. A few comments:

1. Paris is no more France than London is England and New York City is America. They are big cities and only one miniscule part of a country. They never reflect the total character of a country.

2. Anyone can create an interview to prove any point they want. Mass media does it every minute of every day. Tell me what you want it to say and I'll get you the 'proof'. Some on this forum are very good at it. (g)

3. We have travelled in every department in Bretagne frequently and one thing is evident in all. There are new homes, from small starter homes to 5-6 bedroom homes, being built in small villages most everywhere. These are not built for Brits or other foriegn folks, these are for French folk. That means that the villages are not dying but in fact are growing. We live in a commune of about 600 that is not on the way to anywhere in particular and not a bedroom community for any nearby town. These are for 20 and 30ish people who work nearby. That is a healthy sign no matter how you cut it.

People see what they want to see and this is how we, and some others it appears, see it.

If others want to think differently and look for the negatives and moan and groan about it, then so be it. I'll bet we enjoy life here more than they do.

[Viv]

The big difference as Miki pointed out is that you are retired and clearly live in a different reality to those of us with small children and who have to work.

I want my children (when the time comes) to be able to stay here and work and not have to go to the UK or elsewhere. Clearly you do not have to give any thought to these issues.

And,Yes I do enjoy my life in France or I wouldn't be here! But I cannot afford your smugness!

[Miki]

Ray”....….If others want to think differently and look for the negatives and moan and groan about it, then so be it. I'll bet we enjoy life here more than they do.”

Negatives ? so real Life and truths are dismissed as negative ?

I would say that one’s head in the sand was negative and as a gambling man, I bet you don’t enjoy life more ! Don’t mistake someone who puts across the real happenings in France, against the insular Brit (sorry American) outlook, as a person that has no life (or fun as you put it !)it really has no relevance !

Our life is pretty full from the start until the finish of the day, we are living and working in France, (just like the French !) and have an outlook to match on things “French”. We hopefully fulfil life's requirements, funwise !

Now your thoughts that houses are being built means ALL is healthy, do you know just how cheap these places can be bought for and just how low the credit is to buy them, especially for the young? More importantly, where did you think the people would live if houses are not built? That’s right, they have to build homes for each generations that follows.

Houses simply have to be built to put people in, if they don’t build, they sleep where exactly then ? Those that work outnumber those that don’t so they can try to buy, those that cannot find work and thereby get credit, do you know how they live, or where ? Not sure if you know either how new build works here ? They are for the most part built to spec and not as in the UK, built then see who will buy.

Please think before you quote things like “houses are being built” as if that means ALL is therefore well. In the south of France house prices have zoomed to incredible heights, wages have not, there are job losses, and finding work is difficult (not sure if it is worse or better than here) new house are being built also but sorry, that proves sod all, as previously explained.

It proves to me, that you in particular have no idea of the enormity here in Brittany of the now very serious nature of the chomage here. I stated that it had worsened by 12% on last year and this winter , Brittany's chomage, just in our area, will be between 11-12%. You look at houses to judge it by, I will take my figures from the official Breton papers.

I really cannot believe you do not know just how poor many folks are here in Brittany, but perhaps I do, the view from the garden is pretty rosy eh !

Or as Viva says, being smug in ones own self satisfaction is not a true reflection on actually living here for many of us that work and have kids and that includes for the majority part, the French themsleves.

I will also mention that Ray refuses to answer my Q's or points different to his, as I don't see life here as he sees it, so I am seen as a person non gratis to him.

[RayB]

[quote]The big difference as Miki pointed out is that you are retired and clearly live in a different reality to those of us with small children and who have to work. I want my children (when the time come...[/quote]

**The big difference as Miki pointed out is that you are retired and clearly live in a different reality to those of us with small children and who have to work.

I want my children (when the time comes) to be able to stay here and work and not have to go to the UK or elsewhere. Clearly you do not have to give any thought to these issues.

And,Yes I do enjoy my life in France or I wouldn't be here! But I cannot afford your smugness!**

Allow me to ask you two questions in all sincerity.

1. How do you suppose we got to be able to retire here in France in relative comfort?

2. Please explain where 'smugness' enters into what I said?

[Viv]

i have no idea Ray since I don't know you!

I assume perhaps from working ( clearly sucessfully ?) in countries with an economy unlike France's since you have chosen France simply to retire to in.

I think the smugness is self evident really. You want to keep France exactly the same because the real life issues don't affect you. This is like retiring to the caribbean for example, sitting on the beach enjoying a pina colada all day, thinking how great it is that you have a big villa etc and the sun is shining, while the rest of the population is trying to eke out a living. If it's not smugness then its just ignorance!

And before people get the wrong end of the stick - I do not think France is exactly the same as the caribbean , its just a metaphor!

[Miki]

I would agree with your reply viva

Ray, surely not all Americans act so childishly, well that was not phrased correctly perhaps, as I have met everal people from the States who do have proper etiquette and who do answer questions posed, even if different to ones own views. I find it bad manners and the reason for not answering quite pitiful to be honest.

[Miki]

I would agree with your reply viva

Ray, surely not all Americans act so childishly, well that was not phrased correctly perhaps, as I have met several people from the States who do have proper etiquette and who do answer questions posed, even if different to ones own views. I find it bad manners and the reason for not answering, sadly I find quite pitiful to be honest.

[RayB]

[quote]i have no idea Ray since I don't know you! I assume perhaps from working ( clearly sucessfully ?) in countries with an economy unlike France's since you have chosen France simply to retire to in. I ...[/quote]

**I assume perhaps from working ( clearly sucessfully ?)**

That's right . . . AND working damned hard, getting an education, earning our way up in our careers along with all hardships and failures along the way. We EARNED it! We are/were very aware of the inequities of life, but that is part of life. We have and are still involved with them both in the US and here. If you want to call that smug . . . fine.

I wish you and your family well and hope that you succeed wherever and with what ever you do. Anyone can if they try hard enough and long enough. Go for it!

[Viv]

Sorry Ray, I am losing the drift of your point.

I worked hard and got an education in the UK. I don't think that you are unique in that respect. But I am not of retirement age yet and need and want to work in France.

Is your recommendation that I should go back to the UK and keep working 'damned hard' in the industries that you don't want here and then return at 65 to enjoy France as a large old folks home?

[Viv]

Sorry Ray, I am losing the drift of your point.

I worked hard and got an education in the UK. I don't think that you are unique in that respect. But I am not of retirement age yet and need and want to work in France.

Is your recommendation that I should go back to the UK and keep working 'damned hard' in the industries that you don't want here and then return at 65 to enjoy France as a large old folks home?

[Russethouse]

Ray,

Are you missing the point on purpose ? From what I have read of you on forums, you have worked both in the USA and UK, and you are now reaping the fruits of your labors. What Miki and Viva are saying that for many French people the opportunities to do what you did does not exist in France in the same way. There is too much bureaucracy, too much 'pigeon hole-ing' for want of a better expression. Too much of a blinkered outlook from officialdom.

For instance on my last trip to Brittany a French lady told me about leading scientist who was virtually frogmarched from his laboratory where he was undertaking ground breaking research into cancer, the reason - he had reached the state retirement age!

This scientist went to the USA and now works in state of the art surroundings and is feted and respected, as he should be.

You mention new properties being built in communes near you but to me this represents a change in itself, home ownership has certainly increased in France during the last 20 years - AFAIK before that it was much more common for families to rent, possibly all their lives.

I'm afraid your idea of being a guest is also an anathema to me - once you contribute to the system ie - pay tax, you cease to be a guest.

[Miki]

"...Sorry Ray, I am losing the drift of your point"

You are lucky, I missed it ages ago !

What working hard and then going to France has got to with anything, has surely missed the mark by many km's ! I know many people, some with their families, who have come here and had to hit the ground running to make a living here. We are among those folks, the ones that had to try and fathom France, its people and their ways out pretty quickly, to ensure we stayed here. Coming here in retirement with money, earned or otherwise, means nothing to us, or the French. Surely any fool can do that and then lead a life of Reilly (was he French perhaps ?)

[Laotze]

[quote]OK so I'm being controversial - But I am not a troll!!! I know that there are a lot of hurdles to leap to be able to live let alone be able to attain a sucessful business in France BUT don't you thin...[/quote]

I have been reading back this thread which started with the original poster wondering about opportunities in France and then went off track with people banging the tired old drum about France being such a backward country. France is a country which has been to the forefront of medicine, microbiology, aeronautics, engineering etc etc but many who come to live here come without knowledge of Frances rich cultural heritage. Many seek to change something they dotn understand in the first place. We all have different experiences of France. I was born into a French speaking household and grew up with the traditions that I see all around me everyday in France. I saw what Sunday opening and 24/7 did to the Uk and I I pray this never happens in France. I am not living in a fools paradise and even in the tiny village where I live there are problems with drugs, and the family unit is figting a rearguard action - but its still fighting whereas the fight is all but lost in the Uk. When I used to speak to people in the Uk of how my cousins were like my siblings it was as if I had grown another head. Its the norm here - yes even on the big cities people travel to spend weekends and holidays with their families. This accent on family life before and above anything else is something that the British just dont get. I am not being superior - MOh is British as are many of my friends. Its a different way of life. The French are fiercely proud of their traditions and their culture and do not want to be mini USA. Yes it will change but it will change in line with what the FRENCH want. And if you are not French by birth or acquisition of citizenship then you ARE a guest (some guests are not invited - some are not even welcome!) And if you delude yourself that you have any other status then ask the French to define it for you. And being a guest doesnt mean that you cannot speak out when something is wrong - it just means having a sensitivity about doing so. When we bought our house there were no British at all in the area. In the last couple of years the trickle has become a flood. They come out for a better quality of life - some well prepared and ready to adapt to a way of life in a foreign country ............but increasingly I see those who arrive knowing nothing about their host country and expecting and demanding that it changes to accommodate them. They stay in their cliques, laugh at French customs, drink too much and display bad manners at every turn - and after a couple of years they head off back to the UK because France is too backward and didnt change the way things are done to suit them.

Before anyone flies at my throat - I am NOT targeting this at any person on this thread. I know nothing about any of you .........but if the cap fits and you dont find it comfortable dont bother ripping in to me. I know when I am beaten, and some of you would argue both sides against the middle so I might go and bang my head against a brick wall as an alternative to posting here again. There are lot of great people on this forum - and a lot of people who grate. I dont normally descend to personalities in an argument but I really do not understand why a couple of people on this thread find it necessary to use emotive language and snide insults instead of debating the points under discussion.

[Viv]

Hang on - Laotze, it was you that took it off the direction in the first place!!!!

[Russethouse]

I think you knew the wrong people in the UK Lao, we had/have a close family life with cousins included and we were certainly not alone in the area I come from. I do think Mr Tebbit had an input into into spreading families out and changing the social fabric of areas with his entreaty to 'get on your bike' !! However, how family friendly is the way of sending French teachers to their first school ? How many young adults continue to go home for the simple reason that Mum & Dad are putting their hands in their pockets far, far longer than is the norm in the UK or USA ? I know someone who has just stopped 'helping' his daughter (much to her disgust) - she is 30 !!! (No wonder the English are dismayed !!! )

I also wonder if unemployment in France continues to rise and the French have to relocate to work, this may also effect this 'family' aspect of French life.

Lets face it, nothing will change the French if they do not want it too, but I think many of them can see that some aspects will have to change to allow the country to thrive and maintain its position in the world.

[Miki]

Laotze "...I have been reading back this thread which started with the original poster wondering about opportunities in France and then went off track with people banging the tired old drum about France being such a backward country.”

Yep, quite right but we were talking business wise and starting up here and what were the opportunities of doing so NOT medical, aeronautics , engineering etc, that’s a completely different subject and as stated, you were a chief culprit of taking the original thread well off line.

Laotze “I saw what Sunday opening and 24/7 did to the Uk and I I pray this never happens in France. “

WHAT, Intermarché to name but one, have been opening on Sundays for ages. OK not the full range of supermarkets are open (some French openly blame the 35 hour week for stopping them being able to shop where and when they want though( but I see more and more shops opening around here on A Sunday. The bottom line is demand, have no fear about that, Saint Malo shops are almost all open on a Sunday, yes because of demand but that’s all it takes to start a trend.

Laotze “I am not living in a fools paradise and even in the tiny village where I live there are problems with drugs, and the family unit is figting a rearguard action - but its still fighting whereas the fight is all but lost in the Uk.”

But they fought in the UK as well to stop it, surely you can see that but they couldn’t. France will fare no better that’s for sure.

Laotze “This accent on family life before and above anything else is something that the British just dont get”.

How crazy is that to generalise about, as a family, although spread about a bit, we get together whenever we can, however long it can take and I can say the same thing for my family and friends families.

Laotze “..Yes it will change but it will change in line with what the FRENCH want”

I think you will find a few of us have already said that and we ahbe already said that the French we know want the change to happen sooner, rather than later.(or too late)

Laotze "..And if you are not French by birth or acquisition of citizenship then you ARE a guest (some guests are not invited - some are not even welcome!) And if you delude yourself that you have any other status then ask the French to define it for you."

On behalf of some of us today whilst talking to our French insurer here to talk insurance !! I asked him if I and my family were seen as guests, he quite seriously told me that we are extremely welcome and he felt the Brits had added a little more prosperity in to an area that always had needed financial help. Guests, he said, no way, you are part of the community and living here, guests do not “live” anywhere else but they might stay temporarily somewhere away from home. I agree with his thinking and anyway as stated before never have felt a guest, what a funny thing to be” a guest in the place you live….Why you can say that is beyond my thinking.

Laotze “They stay in their cliques, laugh at French customs, drink too much and display bad manners at every turn - and after a couple of years they head off back to the UK because France is too backward and didnt change the way things are done to suit them.”

Pick out a few families that could easily have gone to Spain or Australia will not make most of us others in to “guests” These people can be found anywhere, even among the French. I have witnessed teenage kids here taking the p*** out of the old fisherman singing their songs at a fete or old Bretons dancing. I have my eyes wide open and by doing so can see good and bad in anyone and from any nationality. You insist on generalising French and British, there is no such thing. And to make a further point, many French stick together in England, so what's new about doing that anyway ? Been to Earls Court ever ? Been to Southall ? Been to many parts of London and seen just how many races have stuck together for centuries ?

Your last paragraph is not worth discussing and I really cannot agree with it.

[Viv]

Laotze.

You say that you grew up in a French speaking household - are you French/ of French descent?

if so -Do you have issues with Brits?

I certainly think if I were to take your comments 

" if you are not French by birth or acquisition of citizenship then you ARE a guest (some guests are not invited - some are not even welcome!) And if you delude yourself that you have any other status then ask the French to define it for you"

to the UK and replace French for British many people in the UK would send me off to join the National Front!!!

This, I agree , has nothing to do with the original posting but what the heck!

[SaligoBay]

Laotze, I don't consider myself as a "guest" because that's just not how I think.  In the UK it would never have crossed my mind to class anyone as a "guest", whether they were Pakistani, Chinese, French, or American or anything else.  They're just people, and just because I bought a passport that allows me to say that I'm a UK citizen does not make me consider myself superior to them.  It only means that I have a different set of legal rights from them, that's all.

I have never judged a person's worth by the documents they carry, and I'm very glad that my French friends don't either. 

[Logan]

[quote]Laotze, I don't consider myself as a "guest" because that's just not how I think. In the UK it would never have crossed my mind to class anyone as a "guest", whether they were Pakistani, Chinese, Fre...[/quote]

A large hurrah to that Saligo Bay. Assuming the mantle of 'a guest' surely immediately sets yourself apart. Where is the sense in the creation of invisible barriers?

I would like to return to the subject of the thread and the poster asked about opportunity in France.

Well having lived here in France for 20 odd years I think I have seen and heard  many differing opinions on the interpretation of 'opportunity'.

Opportunity can mean all things to all men. Some folks see opportunity as a way of helping others. Some think it means self-enrichment. Don't get me wrong, I think becoming rich is OK. However I don't believe that means necessarily having a happy or fulfilling life. I mean you would not come to live in France to get rich would you? Most folks come here in search of something else. That is, I guess my point. France offers a different way to live, particularly in the countryside. Business opportunities are virtually zero. It's not that kind of place, France is different, an island in a sea of similarity among other EU countries throwing off the yolk of Soviet domination and the long hangover from the cold war.

France is a quirky place full of contradictions and double meanings. Frenchman for example were among the first to colonize ‘the new world’, and were there 100 years before the Mayflower arrived. A fact not mentioned by the current US administration!

France is indeed “Old Europe” and because of that is sees merit in trying to retain the values of its forefathers. Business and capitalism have an important place in modern France but in my opinion the balance has to be maintained between capitalism and socialism in order for France

[Viv]

I am sorry Logan but I think it is ridiculous to say that anyone coming to France should not even think about starting a business.

My original post was to discuss the 'opportunities' for businesses in France given that it is so different to the UK.

It was pointed out how difficult the system is for any small business to get going and so I threw another idea into the pot, why don't established businesses seek to expand over here?

I never said that I wanted to see wall to wall shopping malls, I just wanted to engender some debate. The only shop that I said I would like to see was a N*xt and I used this as an example. I hardly think that if such a store opened in Rennes, it would destroy the moral, social and spiritual fabric of France! Indeed, I think it would just create jobs and money .

Then the topic got hi-jacked by people, who I don't think had followed the original postings but instead chose to select the odd line, take it completely out of context to start their own debate.

This subject was never about 'Hands up if you think France should stand still' or ' Mind your own business 'guests' and speak when your spoken to'.

Yes, we all like France and have come here for different reasons and no, I didn't come here to get rich. However, as Miki pointed out, I think those that do not need to work are quite happy with the status quo. But you also recognize that change is needed and not all change is for the worst , though I appreciate that the word 'change' has negative connotations for many people -hence your comments "I along with millions of Frenchman do not want change at the expense of the social values"  . Perhaps then,I should have said it is progression that is needed .

[Logan]

Viva, I entirely understand the points you are making. My negative views about business start up opportunity in France are based on personal experience and seeing the many people I have known attempting to break the mould. I cannot think of a single one that has succeeded in 20 years. Failures bring severe personal consequences. I have known successful UK businesses men brought to their knees by the unyielding French system. The simple truth, France is not business friendly. Try walking into any French bank to finance a business idea or plan and they will reject virtually everything that has no existing income stream. There is no understanding of business among the establishment and little in the wider population. The French hate competition the life blood of any business and do not recognize risk. The State wants to drain you of your resources at every opportunity and hold you in check with as much red tape as possible. Faced with these difficulties why on earth would you want to try? A challenge perhaps but your chances of succeeding are very slim. I personally want to see France change for the better but not in the way Britain has gone. There is a balance which can be achieved by slow and gradual progression and not throwing out the values which make France different and unique.