Learning the Language

[Teamedup]

 

If you are 'planning' the move, my suggestion is, learn to parlez-vous. It doesn't half simplify life in a country where everyone speaks and does their business in french.

Sometimes the questions we get on here really do shock me, and I am shocked I can still be shocked.........

[Tresco]

There will be people who disagree with that TU, but not me.

It is really hard, once you get beyond small talk, to take part in the kind of conversations you take for granted in the UK unless your French is reasonable. I'm talking about casual chit chat with neighbours, about whats going on in the area, the news, your/their family, your/their work etc - the kind of conversation that is so forgettable, but so important.

If you absolutely know for sure you are a 'picker upper' in terms of learning style, consider that if you move to a rural area, the opportunities to 'pick up' the language are rare.

There was a thread about it the 'language' section a few months ago which people thinking about moving permanently with no French should root out (it's a good idea to root through all the archives anyway). There is also a thread in the same section at the moment called 'Do you speak French' which is worth a look.

[Sprogster]

I have often wondered to what extent individuals vary in their natural ability to learn a foreign language in adult life.

Clearly age and health is a potential factor, but some people do seem to have a natural born ability to learn other languages. Whereby others who put in the same time and effort really struggle.

That is why I believe it is so important to learn French before you move. As if you find languages a real struggle, better to find out sooner rather than later.

I put myself in the strugglers camp!

 

 

[letrangere]

Sprogster, I agree with you.  I'm currently trying to learn basic Italian.  Having fluent French and in particular an excellent grasp of French grammar, everyone says, "oh, it'll be so easy".  But it isn't, it's bloody hard work.  I have a lesson tomorrow and I can't remember a word from last week's class.  Sorry folks but I'm convinced age has something to do with it.  Being of a certain age I am already finding myself thinking, "what did I come in here for?" and, "did I send that e mail yesterday?" so it's natural that it's going to take me eons longer to learn how to conjugate essere than it would have done if I'd started 20 years ago.  Sad but true alas...  M

[Liz]

I entirely agree with TU.  In fact, I wouldn't make it a suggestion I would make it an essential. I am frequently appalled when I hear people in the local DIY store trying to make themselves understood, most of the staff can attempt a few english words but many of the British don't even try.  Surely they could check the dictionary and make a note in advance of the things they are likely to need.  I was in the queue the other day to order something, this particular shop works by catalogue numbers, two english chaps in front of me, one who was the customer and the other who was along to do the translation.  The translator asked the customer if he knew the catalogue number. The customer replied no he didn't, he never bothered with that rubbish, let the staff sort it out.  I was disgusted with his arrogance.  On the other hand I was in the post office and a British chap on the next counter asked in very correct french for two lots of stamps.  He clearly wasn't a fluent french speaker but he seemed to have made a lot of effort to learn the phrases he needed;  I was impressed.

I know it isn't easy and one thing that doesn't often get a mention is that 'learning french' is not a one off occupation.  It often sounds as if you can have a few lessons in advance of a move to France and you are then set up speaking passable French for life.  Any learning that is done in advance has to be built on for years and years and if you happen to go away from France for any length of time fluency in the language is very quickly lost.

I also agree with Tresco about the opportunities for learning in a rural setting.  I have had several conversations lately with a neighbour whose electric fence was causing interference on my computer.  My OH admitted after the neighbour had gone that he had not understood a word that had been said but, if only the neighbour would speak a little slower he would be in with a chance of following what was going on - he won't of course his only concession is to lapse into his own, not very good, english.

Liz (29)

[YCCMB]

Sorry folks but I'm convinced age has something to do with it

Well, MWJ, it's very true! Apparently, your ability to learn a second language decreases exponentially from the age of..............11!!

So it's not surprising that so many people find learning French so difficult if they haven't done it for years (if at all).

[Teamedup]

I have doubts about speaking slowly.

I cannot make any sense of it if someone speaks slowly.

What I used to hate was people shouting to 'help' me understand.

[Tresco]

Liz, I was thinking again about the comment I made - about the limited opportunities to 'pick up' French in Rural areas.

People with children will clearly have more frequent relaxed and, valuably, repetitive (in terms of language) situations where they interact. 

It took me a while to realise I had to 'put myself out there', that is apart from the once a month club outings and other events we go to - once a month is not enough. Even listening to French radio and tv does not take the place of real contact (though I agree with the point TU(?) made about the 'music' of the language, perhaps in another thread).

My French is getting better now that spend more time going out doing strange things in fields and barns with the neighbours

[Teamedup]

How I agree Tresco, once a month is not enough, neither in my opinion, is once a week.

Parents can have that regular contact especially if they get stuck in and join things associated with school and helping with activities.

No kids and I would imagine that the contact or lack thereof can be quite different. Getting a baguette or a couple of pork chops is rather easily mastered.

[Pangur]

I just don't understand how, practically speaking, people can live in a country where they cannot communicate in basic terms with people in the shops.  How on earth do they get things done?  Do they have to buy everything from other anglophones or import directly from the UK?  How can you decide what insurance to buy if you can't read basic French or communicate with the salesmen? 

It's a tough slog with the language and unless you work with French speakers (which I assume most non-fluent speakers don't), it is hard to improve at a decent rate.  My comprehension has improved immensely in the last year, and I have a pretty good level of reading but without very regular practice, rather than shopping, reading and a night out a week, it's hard to get to a stage of feeling comfortable.  I reckon trading my husband for a French man might be the quickest route to fluency.

[letrangere]

Pangur, I don't understand either and have said so so many times here that I promised myself I would stop for I was beginning to sound like a broken record.  So, for the last time, IMHO anyone who moves to the depths of the French countryside without at least some French must be stark staring bonkers.  And you are NOT going to "pick it up" just by grace of living there!

BUT, as we constantly see on the Forum, people do move without a word of the language and, amazingly, they do survive, though goodness knows how. 

Still, as I said to the man with not a word of French who later sent me incredibly rude hate mail, I would far rather be in my shoes than his when having to take on EDF and FT and, yes, I'm sure I also mentioned the insurance company.  And that's before you consider the pleasure of being able to chat in shops, to your neighbours, make friends, etc. feel part of the community.

The best way to learn is in well advance, ideally full time, or at least several evenings a week, in a formal classroom setting with native French speakers.  It's hard, it can be expensive, but it's necessary.

M

 

[Mistral]

I reckon trading my husband for a French man might be the quickest route to fluency

I certainly helps  But you get a French mother in law at the same time, which is strong enouragement not to speak the language

[Deimos]

[quote]I have doubts about speaking slowly. I cannot make any sense of it if someone speaks slowly. What I used to hate was people shouting to 'help' me understand.[/quote]

Quote (Teamedup): “What I used to hate was people shouting to 'help' me understand.”

Most British people should be aware that talking loudly does not help anybody understand you. Over many years and through trial and error the British nation has learnt that you must BOTH “talk loudly” AND “point” to make yourself understood.

Ian

[Deimos]

[quote]Pangur, I don't understand either and have said so so many times here that I promised myself I would stop for I was beginning to sound like a broken record. So, for the last time, IMHO anyone who mov...[/quote]

Quote (MWJ): “… anyone who moves to the depths of the French countryside without at least some French must be stark staring bonkers. And you are NOT going to "pick it up" just by grace of living there!”

I am unsure about this and think it may be more how you live than where you live. I am in the “learning” category (“just starting” level) and live rurally. Even when living in rural areas, I think it may be that ones language skills improve depending on interaction with others and how prepared those others are to correct your errors. I have taken up several “activities” and told others around to correct me when I make mistakes and have found that most will and at a very reasonable level. People are not forever picking up my every error but just occasionally saying “no, you say …”.

I think it may be lifestyle rather than location.

Ian

[MargaretD]

As I'm classed as "sans emploi" I've been able to go to the local AFPA and I'm doing a corresponance course with CNEFAD (?).  I'm doing the course 'S'exprimer en francais'.  I've learnt a lot.  It's based on writing, but I realise now where I'm making mistakes in my spoken French!

I've only been doing it for a week, and today I've had my first homeworks sent back to me.  To say that I'm not having to pay anything for the course - I'm quite impressed!

The man at AFPA spoke with me at length and decided that their Francais comme Langue Etranger wasn't relevant - whether that means he thinks I can manage the spoken french etc...

I hope that they do other French courses after this one, because it will take some time for me to get my written language up to a suitable level.  (I'm wanting to get into school teaching).

Margaret

[Ormx]

Having a French husband should improve my French but, apart from the daily practice, it doesn't as he never corrects me, and his English is good enough to understand my funny constructions etc.

However having a 1/2 French 5-year old is wonderful. She corrects my le and la constantly, esp when I skim over and don't really say one or the other. She loves correcting my pronuciation of "ou" versus "u" as in "vous" and "vu".

Oh well

[nimportequoi]

Margaret,

if you want to get into school teaching, I'd start by trying to improve your English grammar - its not really grammatically acceptable to say 'I'm wanting' even though David Beckham does...

[Russethouse]

SusanAH, Did you by chance see Stephen Fry talking to Jonathan Ross about the English language, on Friday evening?

[Dick Smith]

Gay - I've just had my son (to whom English grammar is a whole shelf of closed books) waxing extremely lyrical about SF. Can we get a transcript of what he said, do you know?

[Russethouse]

I'll see if there is anything on the web site. It was very captivating !

edit

Friday Night with Jonathan Ross does not have a web site - drat ! However I have emailed the BBC to see if a transcript is available.

By the way SF has a new book out (quelle surprise !)

The Ode Less Travelled: Unlocking the Poet Within

[nimportequoi]

Gay,

Yes I did see SF on JR, an excellent interview and I agree that language does evolve, however, I wouldn't necessarily teach people to talk like that (for example "I done it") as if they were using grammar like that in a professional situation it wouldn't sound good. However, I do think that if I'd have been taught  some 'argot' vocabulary when I was at school, I would have understood a lot more of what my French neighbours when I first moved here! 'The Complete Merde' is a useful little book to have on that subject.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I suppose we must come in the 'stark raving bonkers' category.  We have moved to France with extremely limited grasp of the language.  In our three weeks here we have already made friends with a french couple with an extremely limited grasp of English.  We play lots of charades just trying to get basic thoughts across.   We have a beautiful little dog which everyone falls in love with so we find ourselves being forced to try to communicate more and more every day. For us, this was the fun of moving to France.  We wanted the challenge and the wonderment of not understanding a thing anyone says.   It's fun and highly recommended for all the 'stark raving bonkers' people our there!!

 

. 

 

[letrangere]

We wanted the challenge and the wonderment of not understanding a thing anyone says.

But how did you get your utilities connected?  And the house insured?  (English speaking estate agent?)  What do you say if the phone rings and someone starts gabbling away in French?  What would you do if - heaven forbid - one of you is suddenly taken seriously ill and you needed a doctor or an ambulance or there's a fire?  Can you explain where you live, give your address in French or even your phone number?  I don't wish to cause offence, I'm merely curious, extremely curious.  M

[GRT17]

Margaret

You have made the points I was about to make.

Lynda and Richard, the smile and wave technique may work in the short term but fingers crossed that you never have a crisis in France.

bonne chance (good luck)

Gill

[Tresco]

Margaret, most of those things are really easy to sort out without any assistance from estate agents or hand holders.

Extended casual, impromptu conversation is far more difficult for those of us who put ourselves in the 'stark staring mad' category, than filling in forms and answering the same questions over and over again 

Re; the terrible accident or illness scenario, where panic may prevent clear thought, when I first came I had a card with things like 'he is not breathing' 'his leg is detached' etc written down next to the phone