What does rioting achieve?

[SaligoBay]

According to the Grauniad....

The government released details of a package of measures to improve conditions in the suburbs of major cities, aimed mainly at ensuring the education system served north African and black youths better and improved their chances of getting a job. All unemployed people under 25 and living in one of the 750 sensitive suburbs will be assessed by job centres and given guidance and work placements. Benefit claimants will get a one-off €1,000 payment to return to work as well as €150 a month for 12 months.

Damn, I knew I should have joined in!!   

Some 5,000 extra teachers and educational assistants are to be recruited in schools serving the estates concerned, 10,000 scholarships will be awarded from next year to encourage academic achievers to stay at school and 10 boarding schools created for those who want to study away from their suburb. The school leaving age will be lowered to 14 for underachieving pupils eager to take up an apprenticeship.

I'm not saying a word about our understaffed cute village school with classes of 30, no computers, no school trips.....

[Afy]

The rioting will achieve nothing.

What I would like to see is the effect of the deportations. Possibly that might actually fuel the fires so to say.

I agree wutht he government stance... if cant live here peacefully... leave.

As for the one off payments, and stipend's I do nto believe that would achieve anything. It is fairly easy to not want to work and say that there are no jobs...

Those of us who do want to work, find it difficult enough as is, and even though we respect the law what do we get?

[Bannon]

I'm afraid rioting does achieve results Afy, and a quick flick through your history books should prove this. Even our own UK history is littered with conflict that has eventally achieved immense social change.... Newport Riots, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, Peterloo - the list goes on. As for the French Revolution - what a legacy!

The point is one of the social engagement of a disenfrachised minority and even the French government recognises that changes need to be made. I do not condone riots either, but then neither do I condone sections of communities that are elbowed to one side. Proof? In France I don't see many black or asian newsreaders, I don't see many black or asian politicians, and I don't see many black or asian media stars. This list goes on as well.

All change through conflict, with some conflicts being more uncomfortable than others. And don't get me started on democracy and the ballot box.... what a stitch up.

Have a nice day.

 

[Quillan]

The problem will be getting the teachers.

There are loads of people at university (in France) taking degrees to teach. After they get their degree they need to do one final year extra to get their teaching diploma. Once they get their diploma they are then allocated a school, they don't choose they are told. Most of them are frightened because they don't want to go and teach in a inner city school in the areas where there are large amounts of immigrants so they don't take the final year. This means they can approach a school of their choice as an assistant. Three or four years as an assistant with a degree and they automatically become a teacher (subject to getting a good report from the school in which they assist) and can choose the school they want to teach in.

This is why they will have problems getting people to teach in these areas. It might explain also why the education in these areas is not as good as it should be because the teachers don't want to be there so they don't do as good a job as the should, lack of motivation all round.

[Harley]

How many riots will there be in the UK do you think, about cancelling town Christmas lights and Carol services because it might offend someone of a different religion?  I hate racism and don't condone it in any way but is it the man in the street who causes it, or is the short sighted behaviour of our politicians.  Perhaps the French are only looking to the UK to see the result of letting your Politicians go too far with "political correctness".  I have come to live in France and in doing so will endeavour to respect their laws, their people and the fact that they are a predominantly Catholic country.  I will not try to impose my beliefs and religion on them.  Are French people worried that if you give an inch, a mile will be taken?  When there are still people living in property with dirt floors, it's no wonder they want what little there is, to be spent on there own people first, is it?  Have we had a French point of view yet?

[Tresco]

'.....it's no wonder they want what little there is, to be spent on there own people first, is it?'

Harley, the people who were rioting are 'their own people'. They are French citizens, as were their grandfathers.

[Clarkkent]

How many riots will there be in the UK do you think, about cancelling town Christmas lights and Carol services because it might offend someone of a different religion?  I hate racism and don't condone it in any way but is it the man in the street who causes it, or is the short sighted behaviour of our politicians.  Perhaps the French are only looking to the UK to see the result of letting your Politicians go too far with "political correctness".  I have come to live in France and in doing so will endeavour to respect their laws, their people and the fact that they are a predominantly Catholic country.  I will not try to impose my beliefs and religion on them.  Are French people worried that if you give an inch, a mile will be taken?  When there are still people living in property with dirt floors, it's no wonder they want what little there is, to be spent on there own people first, is it?  Have we had a French point of view yet?

I'm sorry, Harley, this is not a French point of view. 

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Could you possibly tell me which towns are cancelling Christmas lights and carol services? And what information do you have about anticipated riots because of this?

I wish I knew what people really mean when they mention "political correctness". The term certainly seems to have come a long way since it was invented on American university campuses in the 1970s. Is it politically correct, for instance, that UK television has black and Asian presenters and newsreaders (some even women) who appear to be as competent as their white counterparts? Is it politically correct that black and Asian doctors are becoming consultants?(After all, Britain's best known - knighted - cardio-thoracic surgeon was born in Egypt.) I know that Britain still has a long way to go in order to ensure that membership of an ethnic minority should be invisible in everyday life, but I also believe that there are a significant number of influential people around who are trying to ensure that Britain is a fair society.

Despite your disavowal, I think that the sentiments expressed in your two penultimate sentences are potentially racist.

 

[Pangur]

"How many riots will there be in the UK do you think, about cancelling town Christmas lights and Carol services because it might offend someone of a different religion?"

The UK does suffer from regular riots sparked by religious intolerance, normally during the marching season. In fact, 50 policemen were injured in Belfast last year because of rioting, not unlike what France has been experiencing. British citizens attacking their own police force just gets ignored and forgetten about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,1568875,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,1568596,00.html

Part religious intolerance, part organised, lack of tolerance for other cultures and beliefs, alienation from mainstream society, poverty and probably a big dollop of oldfashioned juvenile delinquency and boredom. Perhaps there are more similarities between the two societies than people are willing to admit?

Just interesting how people in this forum have fixated on rioters who are dark skinned, foreign and muslim and forgotten about the white and christian rioters who want so very much to remain British.

[Tourangelle]

[quote]The problem will be getting the teachers. There are loads of people at university (in France) taking degrees to teach. After they get their degree they need to do one final year extra to get their te...[/quote]

Although I agree that going to teach in the inner cities is a scary prospect for new teachers, I am not sure what is being referred to in terms of "assistants" being able to chose their school? As far as I am aware no teacher choses the school they work in unless they work in the private schools or they are right at the end of their career. Also, to become a teacher in France takes two years after a degree, not one. People know what they are signing up to do when they take the competitive exam.

Harley, I think you will find that France is a secular country, rather than a Catholic one, and rather than respecting people by respecting catholic beliefs, you are in fact applying a stereotype.

[le bouffon]

Harley while reading your post I just knew someone would shout racist,low and behold 2nd posting after yours they did.

[Harley]

Clarkkent hello,  thank you for your response.  This is another one of those posts in  which the tone can be misread.  I was asking questions, trying to find out if there was anyone out there with an opinion about the questions asked and what that opinion was.  I have not stated that anything I said was a French view point.  I am interested, that's all. The positioning of a question mark at the end of these sentences would tell you as much. Despite what you say I am not a racist.  I think you should be able to live and work in any part of the world without being penalised because of the colour of your skin or your religion.  There is good and bad in all walks of life, rich/poor, black/white.

I would like genuinely like to know how the French people feel about this awful situation which is not helped by Media training their cameras on people of ethnic backgrounds.  I am very sorry if asking these questions has offended you but they were a genuine enquiry.

It was a Suffolk town, if I remember correctly, that have cancelled their Christmas lights and I was told by someone living in the UK today that a London Church have cancelled plans for their Carol services for much the same reason.  I just wondered what reaction people in the UK would have to this news - how they would react - because it was worded in such a way that it was bound to get peoples backs up against people of other faiths.  I just felt it was a particulary stupid thing to say in the current climate.

[Tourangelle]

I think it is quite easy to find out what French people think about this issue. There are several radio stations that have discussed it at length on phone ins, some are better than others, I like Europe 1's at 18.30. I think if you listen to the BBC coverage, on the other hand, you don't get a good picture. Obviously they get the people who can speak English, but they have made it sound much worse and more widespread than it actually is. I am in the middle of a city, but I haven't seen anything! Minor disruption to the bus system, but that's about it!

[Val_2]

Notoriety and disbelief according to an e.mail received this afternoon from Bangladesh. My friend's son is working voluntarily out there for six months and HE was told about it by the locals who had all the info. Apparently they cannot believe people act like this in France.

[Viv]

I appreciate that for most/all countries, if you are born there then you are entitled to have that particular nationality.

But shouldn't nationality be more than that? Isn't it about having common ground, values etc?

I can think of a number of countries, where, if through some act of fate, my children had been born there, they would no more have been of that nationality than Martian.

OK technically , yes they would have been "whatever" nationality but in reality they would not have, because as a family we would not have been able to identify on a number of levels with the majority/ indigenous population.

Yet I can think of a number of countries that I could move to tomorrow and slot in easily.

Is it not possible that the crux of the problem is that some migrants have simply made bad choices, perhaps for the best of reasons and are in some kind of cultural limbo?

[Clarkkent]

Hello Harley. Thank you for your reply - I confess that I did misunderstand the opening of your posting: I suspect I was concentrating on the words rather than looking for a context.

My limited observations of the French in these respects suggest that intolerance and prejudice of race may be just below the surface. I think that the public face of Britain is trying hard to integrate minorities/ethnic groups into everyday life. I'm not sure this happening in France - when I'm in France I watch French tv, I'm not at all sure I am aware of many black or brown faces (there is the chap that does the meteo on TF1). I recall that after a French football team won the World Cup there was bemusement (for want of a better word) at the proportion of ethnic north Africans in the team. Over the years I have sometimes been surprised at the hostility  shown to non-Caucasians in conversation with French people (but then, you get this with British people, too.) I hope that you can receive some authentic French responses.

As an afterthought - my perception of towns like Leicester and Bradford, and places like Wembley and Hounslow, is that a sizeable proportion of the immigrant population has "broken through" into the "middle classes". Does anyone know anywhere in France that is similar?

 

 

[SaligoBay]

Is it not possible that the crux of the problem is that some migrants have simply made bad choices, perhaps for the best of reasons and are in some kind of cultural limbo?

Yes, but it's not usually those migrants themselves who have the problems!  It's their children, and possibly grandchildren, who are stuck in the limbo between what their parents tell them and what the world outside tells them.  The bigger the difference, the bigger the problem, maybe?

Don't know, it's only a shopping-avoidance thought. 

 

 

[Bannon]

[quote]I appreciate that for most/all countries, if you are born there then you are entitled to have that particular nationality. But shouldn't nationality be more than that? Isn't it about having common gr...[/quote]

You've touched on an important point Viva when you talk about nationality. Most academics would argue that nationality is a combination of several things. Where you or your parents were born, a common language, a shared history, a shared religion, and a common heritage - to name but a few.

To pull our just one of these criteria... De Valera I think it was said of being Irish "to be Irish is to be Catholic, to be Catholic is to be Irish".

So maybe there are degrees of nationality and maybe the north Africans are not as French as some others living here. Maybe I'm more English than the Queen given that she is of primarily German stock.  Now that's a thought. It has also been estimated that over one third of UK residents are of Irish decent.

One last considertaion to leave you with. A family member of mine often says to me (and often after one glass to many, "I'm not French..... I'm Breton!"

Roll on St Georges Day. (now when was it?)

[Quillan]

[quote]Although I agree that going to teach in the inner cities is a scary prospect for new teachers, I am not sure what is being referred to in terms of "assistants" being able to chose their school? As fa...[/quote]

My French teacher explained this to me, perhaps he has done the first of the two years and is holding off on the second is what he meant. Assisants can get work were they like as they are not technically a teacher although he is teaching the English kids French at the local school to which he applied, If he took the second year and became qualifed he would be told where he is going to teach just as you and I have said.

[Pangur]

"De Valera I think it was said of being Irish "to be Irish is to be Catholic, to be Catholic is to be Irish".

Well, he was born in New York, his mother was Irish, his father Spanish and it was his US nationality that stopped him being hung by the British after the Rising. So no wonder he had a flexible notion of nationality that didn't include parentage or birthplace!

And it was of course another (more reluctant) Irishman, the Duke of Wellington, who said that being born in a stable does not make a man a horse...

[Alcazar]

I think it was Lambeth Borough Council who announced that this year, the "Christmas Lights" would be known as "Winter Lights" to avoid upsetting other faiths.

However, it has rather backfired on them, with Christians up in arms, lots of people asking if mention of Diwali or Ramadan is also to be banned, and the "other faiths", when asked, falling about laughing at it all. THEY can't see the point in the Lambeth stance, as they expect to be tolerated, so they tolerate......and isn't that how it should be?

Now, apprently, Lambeth have said that the announcement was "accidentally" released by a junior officer, and wasn't council policy

I still haven't got to the bottom of which large retailer decided that advent calenders should forthwith be known as "countdown calenders", and for the same reason, appprently..they didn't want to upset other faiths.

Alcazar

[Tourangelle]

[quote]My French teacher explained this to me, perhaps he has done the first of the two years and is holding off on the second is what he meant. Assisants can get work were they like as they are not technica...[/quote]

Perhaps he is looking at primary school teaching, as I know about secondary schools from my own personal experience?

[Mozman]

Harley, I think you will find that France is a secular country, rather than a Catholic one, and rather than respecting people by respecting catholic beliefs, you are in fact applying a stereotype. (Quote) I am sorry but I don't really see what point you are making to Harley. The plain fact is that, though France is not run by a religion (like Britain) and is therefore Constitutionally 'secular'....the Religion that is by far the most predominant among French citizens is Roman Catholic. Regardles of how little they may attend the services it does inform their customs their attitudes their laws and their History. The looming presence in every village and town is a Roman Catholic church.  Just as it is a Mosque in Algeria or Morocco for example. And just like I would bear this in mind when in Morocco and try to behave aprropriately and understand that Holy days and so forth are diferent but must be respected. Likewise it is important to understand the same in France. The fact it is constitutionally Secular does NOT mean the religion is not still very central to society in all sorts of taken-for-granted ways. Nor does it mean it should give ground to Religious fervour voiced by other religions whoare LESS tolerant. Too often, as Harley said, that happens in the UK. (Hence the appalling 'Winterval' fiasco that was supposed to replace 'Christmas' in parts of the Midlands.And too often British people have been accused of being 'Racist' simply because they wish to defend their Own culture and beliefs. My son is at Uni in a local city. The Racist violence is ...almost without exception....taking place between afro-carib/ asian...or Indian vs Pakistani groups. These are some of the people who squeal 'racism' at every opportunity....and yet when in any sort of position of strength are the most racist of all. I mourn the loss/erosion of my culture and my country to so-called 'multi-culturalism'. I suspect many people feel the same way and I all suspect that is why they decide they may as well find a home abroad. There is no longer any point in staying....it is no longer really home. And if that sounds 'racist'...tough.

[RobS]

[quote]Harley, I think you will find that France is a secular country, rather than a Catholic one, and rather than respecting people by respecting catholic beliefs, you are in fact applying a stereotype. (Qu...[/quote]

I don't know how many times I have typed this response in relation to the Winterval events in Birmingham, but it looks as though I have to do it again. Birmingham did not replace xmas with Winterval. Winterval was a series of events that ran from October to February (a festival of winter events, hence the name) and was a marketing name for Halloween, Bonfire Night, Divali, Christmas, etc. Because a local paper picked up that there was no mention of Christmas on the front page of the literature, it raised the false story that the City had done away with xmas.

[Tony F Dordogne]

The French State and Catholic Church formally broke the Concordat of 1810 in 1905 when the Catholic Church was disestablished.

However, if you use any of the Archive Departmental, which I do for work, it's interesting that all the records of the etat civile are the records from the mairie/Catholic Church and that all other religious beliefs and strands - Protestantisme, Judaism & Muslim - are recorded as Cultes, rather than in the mainstream, and that's 100 years AFTER the supposed split.

 

[Tourangelle]

No need to apologise for not understanding. I think my point was quite clear if you read Harley's original message

"I have come to live in France and in doing so will endeavour to respect their laws, their people and the fact that they are a predominantly Catholic country. I will not try to impose my beliefs and religion on them."

Let me rephrase:

Whilest catholicism is the major religion, France is a secular country, the values are those of the republic. Respecting these republican values is preferable to taking into account the fact that more people are catholic than they are, say, hindu because these are values which can unite French people.

I think it is very dangerous to start bringing religion into the French identity, as this is one of the Front National's favourtite approaches. They too would like to define France as a catholic country. I am in NO way suggesting that this is Harley's point of view, but I do think it is very important to emphasise the importance of republican values in French society.

RobS I assume you don't mean to quote me, I didn't mention Birmingham, and if I were to it would be to say that from personal experience it is a great place to go at Christmas as it is the rest of the year.