Bird flu

[Sprogster]

One thing that worries me about France in regards to any type of public health crisis, such as the increasing prevalence of anti biotic resistant E Coli and Salmonella and the possibility of a flu pandemic. Is the general lack of hygiene in food handling with many shops, where prepared ready to eat food is concerned.

In particular, I have in mind a well known chain of Boulangerie in the Var, that sell the usual range of bread, pastries and sandwiches made with cooked meat such as ham.

The other morning, I was waiting in line behind a gentleman with either the flu or a bad cold being served. Having paid the female assistant with coins extracted from a snot covered tissue, the assistant placed the coins in the till and then asked for my order which was a pain au raisin. You have guessed it, she ignored the metal tongs and picked up the sticky pastry with the same bare hands that was handling this persons money seconds earlier. I refused to accept the pain au raisin and to her bewilderment insisted she selected another using the tongs provided. This was not a one off incident from my experience.

In this day and age using bare hands to handle money and then prepared ready to eat food, is not acceptable and actually against the law.

With the increasing incidents of antibiotic resistant food poisining bacteria don't put up with it, as you are putting your health at risk.

 

[Christine Animal]

It has also been said that all the handshaking and kissing helps to spread things around here, rather than the distant British "good day..."

[Deimos]

I’m not a hygiene expert but, if we live over “hygienic” lives and over clean everything apparently out immune system does not get exposed to enough bugs and tends to “go idle”. This can then make people catch and suffer from things they would normally have no problems with at all (and things people with healthier immune systems never even seem to catch). It is apparently quite a cause for concern in some modern houses where some people can keep everything spotless and cleaned with these modern “kill everything” cleaners – particularly for growing children. I remember when I was a child being taken round to friends (deliberately by my Mum) when they had e.g. mumps, German measles, etc.

Clearly there is a balance and I would not suggest we should all lead totally dirty disgusting lives, just that there is concern in some medical quarters that some lifestyles are too far the other way. There can be some benefits to “spreading a few bugs around”.

Ian

[Sprogster]

You are quite right in that one should not be too fastidious about hygiene matters.

However, correct handling of food falls into the category of emerging health crisis, as the new strains of EColi and Salmonella are antibiotic resistant and potentially fatal

A recent Ecoli outbreak in the north of England led to the death of a school child. 

[Quillan]

Very, very long but it might explain things for you guys.

WHAT TO DO: It is IMPERATIVE that we educate as many people around us as possible to the THREAT posed by vaccines and by FEMA If a pandemic occurs it will be because the CDC cultured this virus in a lab from a sample taken from a corpse that was buried in the permafrost in Alaska.

SARS occurred when a live virus escaped from a lab and the same thing could happen "accidentally" (ha). Horowitz article explains this much better than I can. The main thing is we need to educate people so they won't act like sheep to the slaughter. We all need to strengthen our immune systems now and be ready to help those around us who make the mistake of taking the vaccine- see IAHF archives http://www.ymlp.com/pubarchive.php?jham and Horowitz article below:

DrLenHorowitz's Avian Flu Fright Commentary

To: All grassroots activists, health and vaccination networkers.

Please forward this urgent e-mail, to help save lives, to everyone in your network.

Avian Flu Fright: Politically Timed for Global "Iatrogenocide"

A Public Health Warning and Political Essay by a Harvard-trained Author of Fifteen Books Including the American bestseller, Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola-Nature, Accident or Intentional?

Leonard G. Horowitz, DMD, MA, MPH

Abstract

If avian flu becomes more than a threatened pandemic, it will have done so by political and economic design. This thesis is supported by current massive media misrepresentations, profiteering on risky and valueless vaccines, gross neglect of data evidencing earlier similar man-made plaques including SARS, West Nile Virus, AIDS and more; continuance of genetic studies breeding more mutant flu viruses likely to outbreak, inside trading scandals involving pandemic savvy White House and drug industry officials, curious immunity of these pharmaceutical entities over the past century to law enforcement and mainstream media scrutiny, and published official depopulation objectives.

With the revelations and assertions advanced herein, the public is forewarned against this physician assisted mass murder best termed "iatrogenocide."* This genocidal imposition is expected to serve mainly economic and political depopulation objectives.

Background

In April, 2003, a social experiment called SARS, said to have arrived from Asia, heavily struck Toronto. I was there throughout most of this Asian flu-foreshadowing fright. This bizarre new pneumonia-like illness was named Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome. It was said to be the latest threat in an ongoing series of attacks on humanity by mysteriously mutating "supergerms."

A careful study of the scientific and medical-sociological correlates and antecedents of this "outbreak" revealed something amiss far more insidious than SARS. I critically considered Toronto's media reaction as any Harvard-trained public health expert in media persuasion behavioral science might. The scourge had all the earmarks of a novel social experiment conducted by white-collar bioterrorist.

It seemed clear to me that this unprecedented population manipulation effectively indoctrinated the mass mind in support of a grossly ineffective, albeit legislated, public health response in advance of the arrival of "the Big One." Throughout the "SARS Scam,"(1) repeated references were made to biological agents that might facilitate decimation of approximately a third to half of the world's population. Having extensively reviewed political population control literature and contemporary objectives of leading global industrialists, I noted these predictions were in close keeping with current official population reduction objectives.(2)

Canada's response to SARS in 2003 was, for the first time in history, directed by the United Nations and World Health Organization (WHO). Having reviewed the intimate financial and administrative ties between these organizations, the Rockefeller family, Carnegie Foundation, and the world's leading drug makers, "the fox," in essence, reigned over Canada's "chickens."

The truth about plagues includes the fact that "no grand pandemic ever evolved divorced from major socio-political upheaval." SARS advanced a political agenda more than a public health emergency. If public health officials earnestly intended to prevent these new emerging diseases, or successfully treat them at their roots, I repeated, they would study their obvious origins from the merged military-medical-biotechnology arena. A basic course in medical sociology simply justifies this utilitarian counsel.

"Experts" had been predicting the arrival of a super-plague for decades.
What was HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS about the mysterious and terrifying arrival of SARS, however, was its timing. It synchronously arrived with the global war on terrorism, and the Anglo-American war

[Dick Smith]

I'm sorry, Quillan, I haven't read all of this in detail, but I read enough to see that this is yet another 'all nasty viruses are man-made' conspiracy - paranoia story. It seems to believe that there is a military organisation which is using fear of disease to enslave the world's population without thier realising it, and that SARS and avian flu have been manufactured to reduce the world's population. If you believe this, well, I am pretty speechless.

Further - I think that propagating nonsense like this is a grossly irresponsible act, especially from a forum moderator. I ask you to delete this post.

[Eskenazi]

Well put, Dicksmith. All that 'vaccines are bad for you' stuff is what stops stupid mothers from giving their kids vaccinations, thus leaving others vulnerable to disease. Where would we be without vaccination? I'll tell you where I would be - dead.

[Quillan]

It's just something that is floating around, does not mean it should be taken as gospel but then as you said you have not read it all and you have probably not checked the references either. Theories like this come and and go perhaps there is a bit more to Michael Crichtons book State of Fear that can be seen in the first read. In the appendix he explores some of these ideas and then goes on to give 27 pages of information on where you can find the whole of the information on which he based this particular book and how some of the best scientists in the world are so often misquoted or only quoted in part. Is it a conspirecy? was Diana murdered by MI5, did man really go to the moon etc, etc. It's interesting to note that somebody else here has already quoted from a different source completely that American scientists have managed to recreate the 1913 epademic. Did they recreate it or was it indeed found in a body dug up from the ice, who's to know. As for the guy who wrote this, check him out, he is a renound scientist in this field BUT it does not make him right on this issue. One has to draw ones own conclusion.

As do deleting it, why? Are we not all adults here and can't we not make up our own mind or are you saying that you think it's wrong and inaccurate (what makes you the censor, it does not break any of the COC as far as I can tell) and that there are people here who will believe it? I just put it here, as we are on this subject (bird flu) for people to read and debate believe or not believe as they see fit. If it was rude, crude, insulting, racist, sexist, off topic or plain advertising I would never have posted it. I can't see that its any of this.

[Dick Smith]

Quillan - I have read it in detail, now. it's utter nonsense. It's just intended to scare people. Why did you really post it?

- I don't intend to research whether or not some secret organisation is planning to use a biologically mutated flu strain to halve the world's population and enslave the rest -

[Quillan]

[quote]Well put, Dicksmith. All that 'vaccines are bad for you' stuff is what stops stupid mothers from giving their kids vaccinations, thus leaving others vulnerable to disease. Where would we be without va...[/quote]

So any mother that refuses to allow her child to have any vaccinations is stupid. Well I'm not a mother but I find that offensive. My mother wouldn't let me have a BCG at school and I would hardly say she was stupid although you might come of worse if you suggested she was. Now the UK has the highest levels of TB than any other country inthe EU so the BCG really worked. Honestly, saying that without vaccinations we would all be dead, that is stupid. We could go on and talk about polo but it's late and I'm off to bed.

[Quillan]

[quote]Quillan - I have read it in detail, now. it's utter nonsense. It's just intended to scare people. Why did you really post it?- I don't intend to research whether or not some secret organisation is pla...[/quote]

Why? Well personally I find it quite amusing and it is on topic, a bit James Bondish really and no I don't really believe it all. My personal feelings are that when governments play around with these things (and they shouldn't) accidents happen (the last case of foot and mouth in the UK is an example as published in Farmers Weekly at the time and nobody made them retract it or sued them). So the only bit I can see that might possibly of happened is that they accidently released it. As for cutting down the world population, well I think that it's a load of old rubbish. Then on the other hand, well........ you never know. What I would like to know is if the queen is really a reptile (David Ike) where DOES she put her tail when she goes to bed at night or more to the point where does Philip put his . I just love conspiresy theories, they make me laugh.

[Clarkkent]

A quick look via Google suggests that Tetrahedron Publishing Group may be little more than a vanity publishing outlet which allows Horowitz the opportunity to give a veneer of respectablility to daft/dangerous conspiracy theories.

Dick is right - dustbin fodder.

Michael Creighton is a writer of FICTION who (as a result of a medical training) knows enough to identify points in biological science where he can take a flight of pure fancy and make it seem plausible. He is clearly better at doing that than the risable Dan Brown.

[Ron Avery]

"My mother wouldn't let me have a BCG at school and I would hardly say she was stupid "   No, but she would have looked bloody stupid if you had contracted TB though wouldn't she

The reason why TB and polio were all but eradicated in the western world was the programmes of vaccinations in schools.  The reason why it has shot up is the arrival of people into the UK from 3rd world countries where TB is now rife and vaccinations are not available, it has spread because of people like Quillan's mother who have stopped vaccinating their kids.  In some cases due to scare stories, now proved to be based on the opinion of one quack with a vested interest.

 So who is to blame for the UK having high levels of some of these all but eradicated diseases, the gutter press in the UK particularly the TV news media and people like your mum Quillan.

[RayB]

[quote]So any mother that refuses to allow her child to have any vaccinations is stupid. Well I'm not a mother but I find that offensive. My mother wouldn't let me have a BCG at school and I would hardly say...[/quote]

**So any mother that refuses to allow her child to have any vaccinations is stupid.**

In a word . . . . YES!

[Patf]

To get down to basics, does anyone know what are the symptoms of avian flu in the birds themselves?  Runny nose? cough? sore throat? I'd like to know as we have free-range poultry. Pat.

[Motorhead]

I love a good conspiracy theory too!

However it usually proves to be more a case of cockup. The interesting thing is that all this stuff is actually possible or would be if the upper echelons were organised enough.

The 1918 virus probably was dug up from an icebound cadaver otherwise, how would they know it was the same thing?

Even if there is a pandemic some people will die and others will live. Life has always been a lottery, it's called evolution.

I don't intend to cramp my style over this.

[benedicte]

[quote]To get down to basics, does anyone know what are the symptoms of avian flu in the birds themselves? Runny nose? cough? sore throat? I'd like to know as we have free-range poultry. Pat.[/quote]

Symptoms In Birds are apparently: Loss of appetite, ruffled feathers, fever, weakness, diarrhea, excessive thirst, swelling.

[Pantouflard]

'is what stops stupid mothers from giving their kids vaccinations'

 

- - - and the fathers?

[Eskenazi]

Don't know about fathers, Pantouflard,since I only have experience of mothers who, leaning out of their silver 4x4s (complete with killer kangaroo bars) at school drop off and pick up time say things like 'I'm not having Toby and Henry vaccinated; I don't want them to catch Autistics,obviously' and 'Well, after a lot of thought,I've decided that the safest way for China and India is that they will be completely unvaccinated children in a vaccinated group, so the rest will protect them.' Stupid, or what? To be candid I don't think the fathers get much of a look - in in these cases - too bust earning the dosh for Mummy's own personal off-roader and her multifarious beauty treatments.

[Val_2]

You've just described the groups of mothers who used to drive 100m in those vehicles and wait outside the school where my daughter went for a short while before we left for France. How I hated those women with nothing better to do than one-upwomanship and as for me, well social pariah because I lived in a predominantly asian area of the local town and travelled in my old car to bring my daughter there each day which meant they never even said hello.

[Viv]

This reminds me of a couple of "extremely busy" women I used to know ( in the loosest sense possible) who would deliberately seek out parents whose kids had chicken pox for example.

These women would then aim to get their own children deliberately infected . Their rational was that the children were bound to get it at some time in their childhood but this way it could fit around mummy's busy schedule!

[RayB]

[quote]This reminds me of a couple of "extremely busy" women I used to know ( in the loosest sense possible) who would deliberately seek out parents whose kids had chicken pox for example. These women would...[/quote]

Boggles the mind!! In the States. children are not allowed to start school without proof of vaccination.

[Russethouse]

What a lot of cynics ! Viva, there used to be parties like that here too, but I think most people think its easier (for the child and family) if the child gets these childhood diseases over fairly early in their life.

[Deimos]

[quote]This reminds me of a couple of "extremely busy" women I used to know ( in the loosest sense possible) who would deliberately seek out parents whose kids had chicken pox for example. These women would...[/quote]

That was what happened when I was young. In some respects it is a good idea (or at least was in those days). I had the normal vaccinations as well but was taken round to friends to be exposed to the “disease” (chicken pox, mumps, etc.) and it actually makes sense – acquire natural immunity at an early age. Less sure these days where children are often being brought-up in a far more sterile environment, far less outdoor activities, etc. and probably has a lower capability to fight the disease themselves.

Ian

[Viv]

I don't think I could deliberately set out to make my child ill. If they catch it because its doing the rounds, thats one thing.

The point that I was making about these particular mums, was that it was done more to fit in with their calendar than for the 'benefit' of the kids.

Any way back to flu, is anyone else slightly perturbed about Liam  Donaldson's statement that between 50,000 - 175,000 could die of Bird Flu in the UK. What was the point of that statement?