Arcraft vapour trails

[David]

We live in North Deux-Sevres, and now that the clear summer skies have arrived we see a lot of aircraft vapour trails seemingly on routes like motorways.  My wife likes speculating on where the aircraft are going, and being a navigator I am supposed to know.  Unfortunately I only know about sea lanes, and nothing about air lanes.  I therefore mumble and speculate.

I have looked on the internet to try to find an aircraft map of lanes, but without success.

It is good on a sunny afternoon, sitting on the terrace and thinking of the grass needing to be cut, to daydream about the possible exotic destinations of the aircraft, but I wonder if anyone can tell me where to find a map of the air lanes over France so that I can restore some wifely pride, and earn some brownie points?

Many thanks,

David

[Loiseau]

In the north-west Vendee you also see vast amounts of vapour trails. Somebody did once tell me that the area was a sort of aerial crossroads.  And indeed, when I flew from Frankfurt to Chile once, I kept an eye on the on-screen map with moving plane logo and we did seem to be flying directly over our holiday cottage...

Angela

[Alcazar]

We flew from Stansted to Rome in April, and returned a few days later.

On the way down we crossed the English coast at Dover, flew over Calais, then Dunkerque, before turning inland and crossing Lille. We ended up flying parallel with the Rhine for a long way, and saw the Bodensee, before losing sight of land over the Alps.

On our return, we flew right over Paris, (you could SEE the Isle where Notre Dame is), and then followed the Seine to Rouen, before turning to cross the English coast at Hastings, finally passing to the west of Heathrow. A very different journey to our outbound.

Both Ryan Air pilots kept us informed about where we were, too.

Either airlanes are very wide, or out and back are different.

Alcazar

[Iceni]

The vapour trails above us seem to be relatively narrow and I am amazed that an object up there at 30/35,000 feet can be seen so clearly. But not as clearly as the Mirages (and the occasional Hercules type) that fly between the blades of grass. 

As regards maps etc try an american  website, I am sure that such stuff is available under their freedom of info rules .

John

not

[JJ]

We live in the Charente Maritime and have loads of vapour trails, all on a north/south axis,having looked at the maps I am convinced they are flying between the UK and Spain, so not exactly exotic.

[Dick Smith]

We probably get the same planes further north. When we flew from Alicante to Heathrow we flew over Manche, and probably our place, so we tend to assume the planes we are seeing are Iberia-bound.

[Deimos]

[quote user="David"]

I have looked on the internet to try to find an aircraft map of lanes, but without success.

... but I wonder if anyone can tell me where to find a map of the air lanes over France so that I can restore some wifely pride, and earn some brownie points?

Many thanks,

David

[/quote]

 

They are published by IGN.  Best ones split France into 4 maps: NW is 941, NE is 942, SW is943 and SE 944.  There is a fair amount of overlap between maps on the E-W direction but not much N-S.  The NW map (the one I use goes down just south on La Loire by Tours (i.e. Chateauroux in just on it’s southern edge).  In an easterly direction, 941 includes Paris and slightly further East).  The SW one (which is probably the one covering your area hardly overlaps at all with the NW one.  SW map (943) covers east to mid-way between Clermont and Lyon.

They are not expensive (well around 20€), but probably not stocked in most supermarkets.  However, they are interesting as they are not just the AWY, but CTR (Control zones), TMA (terminal control area), danger areas, etc, plus the airspace class (plus the key is in both French and English). (cover amateur flights, airliners, everybody.  Very interesting charts, though not much use as maps !!.

Ian

 

[Cassis]

[quote user="Deimos"] 

They are published by IGN.  ....  the one I use goes down just south on La Loire by Tours (i.e. Chateauroux in just on it’s southern edge).  In an easterly direction, 941 includes Paris and slightly further East).  The SW one (which is probably the one covering your area hardly overlaps at all with the NW one.  SW map (943) covers east to mid-way between Clermont and Lyon.

[/quote]

I'm intrigued.  What do you use this map for, Ian? Are you an amateur flier?

[Deimos]

[quote user="Cassis"]

I'm intrigued.  What do you use this map for, Ian? Are you an amateur flier?
[/quote]

Gliding – which is great fun and I find much better than powered aircraft.

Ian

 

[Missy]

>>>They are published by IGN. <<<

www.ign.fr

There is a mailorder site and things are with you pretty fast usually in the week.

I remember seeing once a map of the whole of France at this particular bookshop. I think it was in the 5ème in Paris.

It spread about 10x10ft and was pasted on the floor. I think it was made of few different maps joined up... Anyway it had long red parallele lines indicated on it, would that have been the air flights corridors?.

Here in Wales the vapour trails have a distinct North-Northwest/South-Southeast directions so projectng that on a small map, I dream that all planes have come from Ireland, Iceland and are on their way to South of France!... Well I can dream can't I...

I flew over the Rift Valley once. Left London, refuel in Rome, then down Italy, aiming for Egypt, following the Nile down, slight left and over the Red Sea, then slight right down toward Addis-Abbeba, over Kenya, Tanzania, Malawi.

I was SO excited! My head was glued to the window. My eyes taking every contour of the land below, the topography etc...

After a 14hour flight! I had such a crooked neck when I arrived at my destination...

Then when I flew to India and Thailand 18months ago, same thing again... Very crooked neck for a couple of days!! Also as we flew out of Dubai on to Pakistan, the steward was closing all the blinds. I put mine back up and he came back 'Sorry Madam. The blind MUST be down'. Why?...I half-heartedly obeyed, waited for him to be busy at other things and inched the blind back-up slowly... I WAS NOT going to miss the morning sun over Pakistan and India!

I still have that excitement today even though I am flying Liverpool-Paris and back twice a year!..

Takes so little to amuse small minds, my children tell me!

[Deimos]

[quote user="missyesbut"]Anyway it had long red parallele lines indicated on it, would that have been the air flights corridors[/quote]

Mine has over 7 different type of red line on it marking different things.  Did my solo last year but not yet taken my theory test (as its all in French with a 90% pass mark).  Thus at the moment I can fly around with a healthy disregard for such things - after all, its the same as with boats, powered vessels tend to have to give way to sailing vessels (most of the time).  To be honest I’ve not bothered too much with the French regulations as none of the club gliders have transponders which in practice means they will invariably be refused entry into controlled airspace (D or above), combined with the fact that any controlled airspace is far beyond my range from the airfield at the moment.

I get quite a few N-S vapour trails over where I live, but having looked, have no airway marks covering where I see the vapour trails/high aircraft.  I am on the border of the Tours CTA but they are far too high for that.  Maybe these maps are more about controlled airspace and the different regulations.  Anything above 19500 ft is totally controlled and you need authorisation to enter so maybe they don’t bother to plot that on the charts.  There are IFR rules about what height you fly at depending on direction but these do not apply above 24500 ft.

Maybe I should translate/read up on it all and take the test this year !! or maybe there is somebody else here who know the regulations.

 

Ian

 

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Loiseau"]

In the north-west Vendee you also see vast amounts of vapour trails. Somebody did once tell me that the area was a sort of aerial crossroads.  And indeed, when I flew from Frankfurt to Chile once, I kept an eye on the on-screen map with moving plane logo and we did seem to be flying directly over our holiday cottage...

Angela

[/quote]

When we fly from Toulouse to Bristol or Cardiff and vice versa, the route takes us over the west coast up to Nantes then over the channel.

We see Isle the Re (sp),  then Jersey and Guernsey.

[CatherineS2]

If you are a conspiracy theorist, these trails are known as "Chemtrails" and they are apparently the work of the US and UK governments spraying chemicals in the sky in order to reduce the population growth...

I used to work with a guy who was adamant that this was true (but then again, he also believed that the 911 jets were flown by the US government by remote control - need I say more?).

You can read more about this "fascinating" theory here:
http://educate-yourself.org/ct/ 
http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/

[Dick Smith]

What is possibly true is that they are affacting the amount of sunlight reaching the earth to a significant degree. An American researcher has done some work on sunlight levels on September 11th 2001 when all planes were grounded, and it seems his idea is borne out. I haven't seen any peer-review, though.

[Davies]

I too am an avid ground spotter and delight in recognising places when crossing the channel coasts.

I find it interesting that flights to North America from Europe take a longer route (Scotland, Iceland, Greenland) whereas those returning follow the great circle and usually cross Ireland and Wales (for Heathrow) Eastbound usually benefitting from a tail wind so journey is around 1 hour shorter than westbound. Presumably the outbound (from Europe) avoid the headwinds but surely saving fuel is the airlines priority so can any aviation buff out there confirm whether a longer route avoiding headwindsdoes in fact, save fuel?

[David]

I think you might find that what you describe as the longer route, Scotland, Iceland, Greenland, is actually the great circle route, and is shorter than the east bound route over Ireland, which is more a rhumb line.  The planes fly westbound over the shorter route, and eastbound over the longer route as on this route they can enter the east flowing jet stream which gives them a strong tail wind.

Mercator maps, which most atlases show, distort the land shapes, and what appears to be the shortest east west route, that is going due west, is actually longer than the great circle route which from London to USA starts off going approximately north west or NNW.  It is all about trying to show a three dimensional globe on two dimensional flat paper.  If you don't have a fancy atlas showing polar regions, the easiest way of finding the shortest great circle route is to take a child's globe, and stretch an elastic band between the two places you want to go between.  If you ping the elastic, it will take the shortest route.  I was shown this by my tutor when learning navigation, and it is quite remarkable when you try it between two places in high latitudes - say London and New York, or Los Angeles (or even Panama Canal) and Tokyo.

I am thinking of trying this between London and Rio de Janeiro to see if it passes over Deux-Sevres, but I can't find a globe.

Hope this helps,

David

[Davies]

Hi David,

 Thanks for that.

This might help with Great Circle routes;

http://gc.kls2.com/

Davies

 

 

[Gardian]

I've had a look at the Aerad map that I've got covering France (from Paris southwards + N Africa) and there are indeed a number of 'lanes' round and about your area. But then, the same thing applies just about anywhere. It depends exactly where you are in '79', but remember that you would see a 35k' high contrail from miles away (from directly overhead). There are several N-S routes, which would probably be taking traffic ex Benelux / N Europe down to the Basque area and on to Spain and beyond. There's one W-E track, which would bring traffic from Lyon / Marseille / Italy etc direct to Nantes and then on to Ireland or more likely over the Atlantic.

Most flights ex the UK heading south would normally route differently to the return. Certainly coming down to Nimes, it's a more westerly track, whereas the return joins the main N-S track at Montelimar and then on up and to the east of Paris.

Hope that's not too 'nurdish' for you !!

[David]

Ian,

Not too nurdish at all, very helpful thanks.

Do you know if it is possible to view Aerad maps on the internet, or do you have to buy them?

Ideally I would like to find a web site showing aircraft lanes above say 25,000 feet.  Thus showing the lanes in which we see the contrails.

I have looked at the maps suggested above, and they seem to be for visual navigation, and show roads etc., thus presumably do not show high altitude lanes.

David

[Gardian]

David ............

There may be something on the web, but I doubt it.

I bought my map at an enthusiast's shop at E Mids airport a year or two ago (£2.50). It's the sort of thing you could ring for and they'd send, though they may have a website.

I'll have a look in the cool light of day and see what I can dig out - will post or email details.

By definition, it is the airlanes above 25k', but is very large scale.

[Gardian]

David .........

As promised, try:

AIRTRANS (EMA airport)   01332 852915

Flightdeck   0161 499 9350   web www.flightdeck.co.uk

Midland Counties Publications   01455 233747   email [email protected]

These details could well be out of date, but one of them should be able to help. The ref of the Aerad map that I have is EU(H)17.

[Sprogster]

If you see lots of aircraft vapour trails in the sky, you are probably near an 'Airway'. This is the aviation terminology for what are effectively roads in the sky. Vapour trails are not always visible in a clear sky, as they are dependent on atmospheric conditions.

These 'Airways' follow over land at intermittent intervals ground 'VOR' navigation beacons, from which aircraft measure their track and distance, if also equiped with a 'DME' beacon. Often a 'VOR' beacon will mark where two airways intersect, effectively a crossroads in the sky.

If in your country walks you see what looks like a wedding cake type metal construction about 20 metres wide in a field, it is probably a 'VOR' beacon.

Aircraft fly in both directions in airways toward each other and are seperated vertically by 1000ft. They use the semi- circular rule, whereby aircraft flying in a 180 degree radius in one direction fly at odd altitudes and aircraft flying in the other direction use even altitudes. 

That is why sometimes you will see at cruising altitude an aircraft pass right underneath or above your plane going in the opposite direction. Can be a bit unnerving!

All this is ultimately controlled by regional air traffic control centres using radar, which track aircraft on radar having allocated them specific identification numbers, which the aircraft then broadcast or 'SQWALK' from a transponder which gives also gives an altitude read out to the air traffic controller.

This is probably more information than you want, so I won't go on to tell you what happens over oceans!

[David]

That is very interesting.

What happens when sometimes it seems that the aircraft are racing each other in the same direction, and one overtakes the other?  Presumably they are at different heights.

David

[powerdesal]

[quote user="David"]

That is very interesting.

What happens when sometimes it seems that the aircraft are racing each other in the same direction, and one overtakes the other?  Presumably they are at different heights.

David

[/quote]

Most certainly they are, unless military when they are probably 'playing' ( they call it 'training'), only joking really I have great respect for military pilots especially the RAF ones.

[Deimos]

A slight aside (as military training flight has been raised) but I live close to the Tours control area and Tours has the main military jet pilot training centre for France (and for Mirage jets, Europe).  You do get the low flying jet training (the thing where two of them charge around at really low level, trainee in the leading jet, instructor in the aircraft behind).  However, they seem to be quite responsible about disturbing people too much as whilst I get them occasionally, it only every happens max one every 3 weeks of so and when it does, its only once in a day (and never at night) – so no nuisance at all really.

 

I have always had the impression that in the UK, certain areas suffer from a lot from large amounts of low level flights, including night flights.

 

Ian