Tough Getting a Job in France if...

[The Riff-Raff Element]

...you're a muslim.

Hot on the heels of 72 workers being suspended at CDG for "terrorist links" - not enough evidence to actually charge

them with anything, you understand, but some of them had taken holidays

in Pakistan - Mr de Villiers seems to be intent on persuing the success

of the "Mosques of Roissy" by getting the veil banned in public places.

Given the current climate he may just succeed. Then what? Compel

muslims to stich a red crescent to their clothes? Am I the only person

who finds this ominous?

[Tresco]

No Jon, you're not alone.

Strange isn't it though, how many of the people who complain about the 'Nanny State' will be in agreement with the notion that it's somehow OK to tell people what to wear.

[Cat]

I notice too that they're all busy patting themselves on the backs for the recent fall in unemployment figures.  Too bad that for many, the need to include a photo on their CV might automatically bar them from actually finding employment due to their ethnicity.

But of course, racism doesn't exist in France, so no need to worry on that point.

 

[Val_2]

[quote user="Cat 46"]

 

But of course, racism doesn't exist in France, so no need to worry on that point.

 

[/quote]

I have never seen or met such blatant racism as exists here in France and from ordinary people too!This is not just against moslems or dark skinned folks, but anyone who is slightly different and to be honest, quite worrying if it gets worse.

[zeb]

I think Cat was being ironic.

[Miki]

Quite right Cathy,

Our Son's friend, born here to an Algerian Father and French Mother

cannnot even get an interview when he writes in with his name. He has

tried using his Mothers name, a fairly common French name and got a few

interviews but once he was at the interview he was pretty sure he

hadn't got a chance. The poor kid who has a fairly good education has

little or no chanc eof work as itstands now and is reduced to cleaning

for a temping agency on rare occasions he can even be given the work.

Take note all those with kids who have come here for the lifestyle and supposed better education,

at the end of education...what then ? For sure the French will

always  look inwardly at their own before others...Oh I remember

what happens, most kids would have moved around the World to find work

anyway, so living in France would have made no difference....we shall

see !

[suzi05]

Personally I think it's tough getting a job here whatever your skin colour. I have a PhD and about 10 years admin experience, am relatively smart and personable, and am about as white as they come! I've been actively job hunting for 4 months now in and around Bordeaux without the sniff of an interview, despite being willing to take just about anything that pays! Maybe there are 10 000 people applying for every job along with me, or maybe the racism extends to redheads..........

[Ac50]

It's not just France that has problems with racism.  We moved to Canada last year, after living for 5 years in Normandy.  Our 3 teenagers attended school here and all did well.  When we moved to Canada, our eldest who got her french bac (AB) had just finished her first year at university in Caen, and had been accepted into 2 nd year there.  When she applied to the university in Canada she was told that she could start again in 1st year but they wouldn't accept anything she had done in France, as nowhere was as good as they were (the university actually wrote that to her).  After much protest, and the intervention of my husband's boss, she was finally accepted into 2nd year.  Her marks were so good at the end of it, that this year she has been told she can skip 3rd year and go straight to honours!  My son, who is now 17 has applied for numerous part time jobs but hasn't even got as far as a interview - excuse given is no experience of work in Canada.  I am a registered nurse, trained in UK, but unless I retrain for 2 years and sit exams I cannot work there.  Again, they consider their no-one from overseas can possibly be as good as they are.

Thankfully we managed to keep a house here in Normandy and I now spend half my time here and half in Canada.  The kids came over in the summer and managed to get summer jobs here, no problem.  As soon as they've finished university/school they have all said they want to move.

You would think living somewhere where English was the main language would be better for us all but it's been a really bad move.  I could go on for ever about the horrible things that have happened to us since we moved there, mainly based on the fact that there is blatant racism against immigrants, wherever they are from.  We are white, middle aged, my husband is vice president of the company he was head hunted by, so by local standards relatively well off, and used to moving and living in different countries.  Nothing though prepared us for the racism, pettiness and narrow mindness we've encountered in Canada.

On another note, my neice who lives in Birmingham, is married to a Greek Cypriot. They have 2 small boys. Their surname was Hazam.  Earlier this year they flew to Spain.  Their experience at Birmingham Airport was so awful that when she got back she applied to change all their names back to her maiden name - Phillips.  Will it make any difference?  Who knows but I doubt it. 

I honestly think where ever you are nowdays you are going to find discrimination and racism.  It is nothing new, it's always been around.  We are probably just more aware of it now.  Thankfully where we are in Normandy we've never experienced it.  If anything, we've had the opposite experience and would give anything to be able to move back here permanently.

 

[David J]

Hi,

Living partly UK and France in Charente Maritime, I have a few contacts that might be useful in Bordeaux for you. Send me a pm if interested.

Regards

 

 

David J

 

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Jon D"]...Then what? Compel muslims to stich a red crescent to their clothes? [/quote]

But wearing a veil already tells the world "I'm a Muslim", so what would be the difference?

 

[hastobe]

And of course all the arab nations are tolerant of westerners...and happily give consent to western dress (whatever the circumstances or location), the building of churches, pubs etc, driving in a car with your best friend (albeit that he is male)....I could go on.

Kathie

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="hastobe"]And of course all the arab nations are tolerant

of westerners...and happily give consent to western dress (whatever the

circumstances or location), the building of churches, pubs etc, driving

in a car with your best friend (albeit that he is male)....I could go

on.

Kathie

[/quote]

Nice try, but this is not about intolerant nations and their behaviour:

it's about a Western nation whose ideas of tolerance are meant to be an

example to the less enlightened. There is nothing to be gained from the

irrelevent comparison. And we're not talking about their dress here, we

are talking about people being denied their livlihoods seemingly

because of their religious beliefs. Do you think any of these guys will

be able to get another job with this hanging over them? Bear in mind

that they have not been in front of a judge (and seem unlikely to be

allowed that platform presumably for the always-useful "security

reasons"), just told that they are an unacceptable security risk. It

stinks.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Jon D"][And we're not talking about their dress here, we are talking about people being denied their livlihoods seemingly because of their religious beliefs. 
[/quote]

But you did mention the banning of the veil!  It looked like you were talking about both things.

The airport workers thing does indeed stink, and is nothing but racism. 

Any Mick'll do, any Black, any Jew

Any poor soul who's not like you

They're down from the trees and they're up from the bogs,

They come round here and they steal your jobs.

They're all the bloody same.   Just not the same as you.

From Brian MacNeill's "Any Mick'll Do", written about the victimisation of groups of people.  The powers who be will always create one for us to believe in, it keeps us all in fear, and therefore pliable and less likely to think about what's really going on.

 

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

[quote user="Jon D"][And we're not talking

about their dress here, we are talking about people being denied their

livlihoods seemingly because of their religious beliefs. 

[/quote]

But you did mention the banning of the veil!  It looked like you were talking about both things.

[/quote]

I did, I did, but mostly as an aside to the main news of the day, as it

were. I wouldn't expect anything else from de Villiers: did you see the

clenched fist salute he was giving? It's in the photo of the article I

linked to. Mad. Anyway, some of those effectively sacked are seemingly

demanding their day in court and have found backing to do so, so we

shall see what comes of it all (probably in about 4 years time given

the speed of French justice).

[hastobe]

[quote user="Jon D"][quote user="hastobe"]And of course all the arab nations are tolerant

of westerners...and happily give consent to western dress (whatever the

circumstances or location), the building of churches, pubs etc, driving

in a car with your best friend (albeit that he is male)....I could go

on.

Kathie

[/quote]

it's about a Western nation whose ideas of tolerance are meant to be an

example to the less enlightened.

[/quote]

Isn't that a little condescending?

Kathie

[Dick Smith]

Racism doesn't exist in France. That's because so many French people just don't recognise it.

We used to use a French-language teaching TV series recorded from TV5 - official stuff. In it a girl has her coffee spilled by a youth in a café and shouts "Arabe!' at him - no irony, no sense of this being in any way offensive...  So are we to teach kids that this is acceptable colloquial French? They seemed to think so.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Jon D"][quote user="hastobe"]And of course all the arab nations are tolerant

of westerners...and happily give consent to western dress (whatever the

circumstances or location), the building of churches, pubs etc, driving

in a car with your best friend (albeit that he is male)....I could go

on.

Kathie

[/quote]

it's about a Western nation whose ideas of tolerance are meant to be an

example to the less enlightened.

[/quote]

Isn't that a little condescending?

Kathie

[/quote]

Not really. Many people (myself included) would contend that the

culture of tolerance exercised in Western Europe (or, perhaps, that

which  used to be exercised) towards those of differing religions,

cultural mores, sexual orientation, etc was an enlightenment. I find

the attitudes in, for example, Saudi Arabia towards women, those

chosing to practice Christianity, etc unacceptable. I also find

unacceptable the use of those same attitudes as a justification for

intolerance against muslims in Europe.

[SaligoBay]

OTOH, I think we have to accept that we will never have a world where every country has the same set of values.   There's something to be said for choice.   There are (for example) people who want state and religion to be separate, and there are people who want state and religion to be inseparably entwined.  

Neither is naturally more right than the other, except in their own eyes.

I'm quite happy with our Western practice of not covering women's faces up.   I'd rather not have women veiled in public jobs, because I really see no need for it, but then I wouldn't really want to see them in bikinis either!   There, you see, you could say that naturists are discriminated against in public jobs, because they're forced to wear clothes if they want to keep their jobs!     

Tolerance, oddly, can only go so far.   You can't actually tolerate everything, you need to draw a line somewhere.

  

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

Tolerance, oddly, can only go so

far.   You can't actually tolerate everything, you need to

draw a line somewhere.

   [/quote]

Absolutly - the mere fact that I can find any behaviour

unacceptable demonstrates a limit to tolerance. I think personaly I'd

draw the line at cruel, inhumane or humiliating treatment. Hence, I

wouldn't, myself, find someone choosing to wear a veil unacceptable, but someone being forced

to I would. Conversely, forcing someone to not wear dress which,

culturally, they would feel uncomfortable being without strikes me as,

probably,  intolerant, though I take your point about those dealing with the public.

What the airport business does is allow people to wheadle their way

around discrimation rules by claming some spurious "security risk" in

employing muslims. Should Airbus allow "them" to build planes? - they

might leave out some vital rivit or other. Should Total allow "them"

onto oil  refineries in case they tamper with the equipment or pee

in the gasoline? Should "they" ever be allowed to prepare food for

others lest they add ground glass to the mashed spuds? If there is

evidence against these people of sufficient gravity to withdraw a

security pass, then why are they not being charged with something?

[Bob T]

The way I see this whole subject is that I have my standards. They are not British, western or French. I live here in France and accept the way that the population want to treat anyone. If I don't like the way France treats Muslims, then it is not my place to critisise them. If I felt very strongly then I would move back to the UK.I am after all a guest in this country. I am not trying to offend anyone with this post or in the way I treat people of any colour, but I do believe that I am tolerant of all people and that includes the way a nation does things.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Bob T"]The way I see this whole subject is that I have my standards. They are not British, western or French. [/quote]

I really don't understand what your 'standards' have to do with it?

Are you only concerned with the life chances of people from the three groups you mention? Where do French Muslims fit in?

 

 

[Miki]

[quote] If I felt very strongly then I would move back to the UK.I am after all a guest in this country.[/quote]

Please please Bob T, we are NOT guests, neither I, nor my wife or our kids, have ever felt we are guests here.

We are European, rules have been made, allowing us all the ability to

move, work and roam where we like, within that framework. That does not

make us guests, not in any shape or form. I am truly amazed whenever I

hear that statement. It's as if we should be jolly happy and tip the

forelock whenever a French person walks by. To be a guest, one has to be

invited, who invited you, me or any other ex-pat to France ?

I have a right to my opinion as much here in France as the next person.

I have paid my impôts, my health and retirement cotisations, as well as every other tax know to man here, for donkeys

years. Guests, je pense pas, jeepers, I even used to vote in the local

elections, until I realised, that by keeping my ear to the ground, I

found out that most times it was a foregone conclusion anyway. !!

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Bob T"].I am after all a guest in this country. [/quote]

What a shame you don't feel at home, Bob.

[quote user="Bob T"].but I do believe that I am tolerant of all people [/quote]

I don't know anyone who's tolerant of all people.   Is it possible?

[Miki]

[quote]

I don't know anyone who's tolerant of all people.   Is it possible?

[/quote]

Can you both love & hate at the same time ? I love Barcelona except

when they play Chelsea.............I can therefore I am, not tolerant

but dos luv Barca to bits when it's over. Think I've had too much

porridge this morning......... It's from Leader Price don't you know

[;-)]

Bon dimanche (c'est très flippin' froid chez nous ce matin Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr.)

[Charlotte3]

This might interest you.

 

I work for a French company employing 14 workers in total.  I am the only woman apart from the 2 office staff and I do a job which is traditionally (at least here in northern Mayenne) a man's job.

I have had to prove myself as strong and fit as the men here and I have so far managed this.  BUT I have had to overcome the most awful racism because I am British, particularly from one of my colleaugues who considers all Brits to be English (roast beef as they are known locally). I repeatedly tell him that I am from Northern Ireland but it doesn't matter to him....we're all English and therefore to be despised!

While he is the only one in work to cause me problems, there is a general attitude here against the "English" which is only evident when you are actually working amongst the younger local people. I now know what is to be seen as an immigrant! not very pleasant.

Also, when my kids were at the local college we had a letter from the school telling us it was forbidden ot wear crosses, crucifixes,bandanas, or anything else which could charatcerise a group apart from the other kids! That was 2 years ago and no muslims in sight.

 

Aly