Race Relations en France

[Bugsy]

 

What poem ?

[Renaud]

I would just like to say that I completly agree with 5-element:

"... how impressed I am by both  tone and content of this discussion and how everyone  is so civilised and respectful of each other's points of view!"

I have learnt much, thank you.

[Dick Smith]

The right-wing drivel.

[SaligoBay]

Did I miss a poem?

You don't have to repeat it, but maybe a pointer to it?  

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="chief"]

Hi.

Just wanted to pick peoples brains on this one.  I am always surprised when i get told or read that France is supposed to be a very racist society.  I personally, either as a black man or englishman, have never overtly come across it despite my many travels in France, and yet, i am constantly told that moving there is a wrong move for me.  I just wondered what as expats, peoples thoughts on it were, either from a an british, or black persons (if you are black) point of view.  I am sure it is there, and wouldn't be naive enough to believe it wasn't, but to be honest, you would expect to pick up undertones if nothing else if it was a prevalent feature of French society, and i just don't seem to be getting that.

cheers

Chief

[/quote]

Chief, this might be of interest to you.

Earlier today, I spoke to a black friend living not too far from me about your post. She made a few notes to enable me to write a post to you. I told her to do it herself but she is not into forums. 

She says that it’s not uncommon to feel a special ‘friendliness’ towards ‘’anglo-blacks’ (American or Brit) in France from black and white French alike. It appears that she has noticed it as you may have on your travels and finds it quite disconcerting and surreal.

In her view, France is roughly where Britain was around the late 70s/early 80s in terms of race relations but it’s slightly more complex for Blacks because the strongest racism (hence more clear-cut) is towards the Arabs as they are perceived as a bigger threat. Nonetheless, if you are an anglo-black, she insists you should not be fooled by the seemingly more tolerant attitude.

However, she says the French being generally more parochial than the Brits of today, tend to fear most foreigners irrespective of colour.  

She says that if you want to move to France and this issue is important to you, then you have to do a proper research of your chosen area and it’s racial slant. If you move to an isolated location where you stand out like a sore thumb, your experience may be very interesting but not necessarily for the right reasons. Ironically, all her white French friends, who live in the UK and in and around Paris, advised her against moving to the south but she has adapted and is not duped by any superficial friendliness …  She says you may consider contacting black organisations in Paris for their views if you haven’t already done so. She doesn’t know of any but there has to be quite a few.

She read the other postings of this thread today and found them all very interesting. So, just another point of view. 

As an aside, days after buying her place a number of years ago, she ran into one of the numerous Estate Agents she had consulted.  He asked her if she had found what she wanted and she replied yes and told him where in the town. The Agent made a grimace, adding that the area she had chosen was ‘a little Arab’.  Being a no nonsense person, she replied, quick as a flash, that she was not looking to live in a ''white ghetto'’.  The agent almost fainted.  For about 10 seconds, she probably made him aware of what it felt like to be the target of racism.  

 

 

 

[hastobe]

Sorry, I agree with bugbear - there is too much 'positive discrimination' in the UK and too much censoring of views.  In my own work place I have seen adverts stating 'preference will be given to ethnic minorities' - imho if you can't change the words in an advert to 'white middle class male' without causing offence then there are racial undertones - period. We now have quotas for inter alia parliamentary candidates, the police force.  Companies can't even get public sector contracts now if they don't have the 'right' ethnic mix in their workforce.  Whatever happened to the concept of meritocracy? 

The reason there is such an undercurrent of hostility towards certain ethnic groups in the UK is that there has been mass uncontrolled immigration and people feel threatened by this.  But rather than addressing the concerns of those who have seen their communities change so quickly and dramatically in recent years, those in positions of power are preventing freedom of speech by labelling people as 'racist' - thus further fuelling the sense of fear and frustration. 

At least in France people are free to express their concerns - you may not like what they say but if you start knowing, honestly, how people feel then you can begin to deal with those fears.  If you silence people then....

Kathie

[Beryl]

 I don't agree with so called positive discrimination as it can sometimes be so negative.

The entrance exam for a particular civil service position allowed those from an ethnic minority to pass with a lower mark. This had nothing to do with language difficulties etc as other UK qualifications were required. But effectively, the ethnic minority candidates were being told that the employer did not expect them to be as intelligent as the non ethnic minority.

How could that be positive?

[Dick Smith]

This is all anecdotal - do you have any evidence? Having recently been in the civil service for 5 years I saw nothing of the kind.

[Tresco]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

Did I miss a poem?

  [/quote]

Eeerm. The 'lament' posted by Bugbear (as it turns out) on page 2 of this thread. Clearly written by an American..

[quote user="hastobe"]Sorry, I agree with bugbear - there is too much 'positive discrimination' in the UK and too much censoring of views.  In my own work place I have seen adverts stating 'preference will be given to ethnic minorities'

[/quote]

Why say sorry/apologise if you agree?

Positive Discrimination is illegal in the UK. What are you referring to? The adverts you refer to mean ''given equal qualifications/experience'.

Also, Beryl; please could you provide more information re your comments about 'lower marks'.  I'm certain what you say has happened is illegal (re. my comment above, in this post).

The alternative being that I missed a major news headline which would normally draw my attention....

 

[hastobe]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8159-2301972,00.html

And it was simply a turn of phrase - no apologies intended!

Kathie

[Tresco]

Hastobe, there is nothing in that article which states that people who are less qualified or skilled in terms of job description, should be offered employment before anyone else.

 

[Clair]

[quote user="beryl"]...the ethnic minority candidates were being told that the employer did not expect them to be as intelligent as the non ethnic minority. How could that be positive? [/quote]

I had a similar experience back in the UK along time ago.

I wanted to register with a temping agency and was asked to take a spelling and grammar test, along with other (English) applicants. The temping agency assistant apologised as she handed me the test paper and said that, as I was not English, she would understand that I would not be able to do it properly, but it was a registration requirement and could I just fill my name...

She had to eat her words when she realised my score was the highest by far... Her face was a picture!!!

[Dick Smith]

(Cross posted with Tresco)

That article is nothing to do with positive discrimination (which I think has a role in some circumstances) but with employing a representative cross-section of workers from the relevant community. Remember the days when Catholics couldn't get work in the Belfast shipyards? Was that just or fair? Would a quota system be fairer? Of course it would.

I am really offended by these people whose noses are put out of joint because a section of society which has not had a fair crack of the whip in the past is now being offered one - which is all they are asking for, fair treatment. It smacks of justice for some, based on 'race'.

[Aly]

[quote user="hastobe"]Sorry, I agree with bugbear - there is too much 'positive discrimination' in the UK and too much censoring of views.  In my own work place I have seen adverts stating 'preference will be given to ethnic minorities' - imho if you can't change the words in an advert to 'white middle class male' without causing offence then there are racial undertones - period. We now have quotas for inter alia parliamentary candidates, the police force.  Companies can't even get public sector contracts now if they don't have the 'right' ethnic mix in their workforce.  Whatever happened to the concept of meritocracy? 

The reason there is such an undercurrent of hostility towards certain ethnic groups in the UK is that there has been mass uncontrolled immigration and people feel threatened by this.  But rather than addressing the concerns of those who have seen their communities change so quickly and dramatically in recent years, those in positions of power are preventing freedom of speech by labelling people as 'racist' - thus further fuelling the sense of fear and frustration. 

At least in France people are free to express their concerns - you may not like what they say but if you start knowing, honestly, how people feel then you can begin to deal with those fears.  If you silence people then....

Kathie

What nonsense! Regretably Racists use the same arguments and misinformation all over the world. There are numerous adverts for city jobs looking for European background candidates.But I am sure your problem is not with them. The ethnic minority posts you refer to are often for local authority positions in areas with large Black and ethnic minority populations.Very few police officers are Black

And remember many of us ethnic minorities are in the UK because you were in our countries.

By the way it is an offence in France to be homophobic, but not in Britain. So free to express prejudices  I dont think so!

[/quote]

[hastobe]

How can you make a decision on awarding a contract on the basis of the ethnic mix of the employer and say that it is fairer:

1. Employees are entitled to withhold their ethnic origins - so you may not have the correct information on file.
2. There will be inherently a higher proportion of those with poorer language skills  / education within certain ethnic groups - particularly where they are recent / first generation immigrants.
3. Certain ethnic groups will have lower proportions of their population actively seeking work - for example a far higher propertion of asian women stay at home with their children.
4. Many employers recruit from outside their geographical area - so it is difficult to see what the ethnic mix of their locality has to do with the ethnic mix of their work force.

Any recruitment that is not based solely on skills and experience (i.e. merit) is flawed. 

If we move to France permanently we will be immigrants - we will not have the language skills of second generation French, neither will we have the same skills, education, cultural understanding - as such we do not expect the same employment opportunities.  Similarly English friends who emigrated to Canada were first to be fired and last to be offered jobs. 

Colour, creed and religion should be irrelevant in the work place.

Kathie

[Tresco]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

That article is nothing to do with positive discrimination (which I think has a role in some circumstances) but with employing a representative cross-section of workers from the relevant community. Remember the days when Catholics couldn't get work in the Belfast shipyards? Was that just or fair? Would a quota system be fairer? Of course it would.
[/quote]

I once worked for a national company. The site I was based at was about three feet from a very racially mixed area. Guess what?

Oh go on then, I'll tell you. [:D]

People whose names required 'spelling out' who phoned up enquiring about job vacancies were very lucky if they were not dismissed out of hand. Sometimes,  depending on who ansered the phone, "the jobs have all been filled" was the response to the applicant, the phone would be replaced on it's home, and then there would be an exclamation made for the benefit of the rest of the office staff. 

Something like, "bugger him if he thinks I'm going to try and spell that name on his clock card/wage slip every week".

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Hastobe, there is nothing in that article which states that people who are less qualified or skilled in terms of job description, should be offered employment before anyone else.

[/quote]

I know - very carefully worded isn't it?

[Tresco]

Hastobe, what are you getting at?

[Tresco]

[quote user="Altan"]

What nonsense! Regretably Racists use the same arguments and misinformation all over the world. There are numerous adverts for city jobs looking for European background candidates.But I am sure your problem is not with them. The ethnic minority posts you refer to are often for local authority positions in areas with large Black and ethnic minority populations.Very few police officers are Black

And remember many of us ethnic minorities are in the UK because you were in our countries.

By the way it is an offence in France to be homophobic, but not in Britain. So free to express prejudices  I dont think so!

[/quote]

 

Altan, I agree entirely with what you said but your post and the point you make isn't clear, because you have made your point contained within the quote of another member.

I've separated out what you said.

It takes a while to get used to this stupid software - no criticism of you.

[Dick Smith]

Hastobe - I take it that you are saying that the article means something other than it says, and you know what it means because it doesn't say it?

I think you might need to show your working out on that one.

[hastobe]

The word 'quota' is always avoided in preference to 'positive targets' or something similar (I'm sure you will have read the DOE guidelines on terminology in this area Dick).  But if the intention is to reward the company who achieves this 'positive target' with the contract then the reality amounts to the same thing - employ 'x' numbers of poles, 'y' numbers of croatians, 'z' numbers of brits etc and you'll stay in business, if not....

Kathie

[Dick Smith]

An interesting reading of the text. I rather doubt it has anything to do with Croats or Poles, though, more ensuring that companies which receive government money do not maintain racially unfair employment practices. Certainly no mention of quotas.

Perhaps you could tell us which part of employers acting fairly you find so distressing?

[hastobe]

[quote user="Altan"]

And remember many of us ethnic minorities are in the UK because you were in our countries.

[/quote]

I guess that gives us Brits a very good reason for taking over Normandy (and perhaps Italy, Norway, Iceland...) - but somehow I don't think the French etc will agree with that logic...

Kathie

[hastobe]

I don't see anything unreasonable with only taking into account the ability to do the job - do you? 

I don't understand why the case of Poles shouldn't be included in the discussion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4631802.stm) - unless you're trying to say that if they are white they are not an ethnic minority?

Kathie

[Tresco]

Hastobe, I'm still waiting for your demonstration of how the Times item you quoted or indeed any 'adverts' for jobs amount to 'positive discrimination' which in your eyes, I believe, equals breaking UK law, or is the same as 'quotas'?

What did you mean by 'carefully worded'?