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Race Relations en France


Chief
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I never assumed that the French were 'colour' racists simply down to the number of couples around who are dark skinned and white skinned. What really riles me, though, are those French who 'accuse' you of being 'anglaise' simply because you speak English. Basically, I have found, if you were not born here you may as well be from the planet Mars. Now, I'm not referring to the average person in the street;  it tends to be those cretins behind desks, shop counters and Inspection Academique(Dept.66)

[:P]

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[quote user="Clair"]

My step daughter in law is mixed race and hates the term half caste . .....For the record, I too hate the term half-caste (my mother is Malagasy, my father French and I tan easily!). I equate it to mis-cast and imperfect.[/quote]

I think however you term it, offence is possible. I use the term half-caste to describe someone who is merely of mixed race, and have used it in conversation on many occasions to describe a white friend who has a german father and french mother. Some use mixed race, but again i have heard that this has inferiority undertones to some, who view it as a statement to announce an impurity in the racial bloodlines, etc etc...i am afraid it is one of those things that you will have to live with. At one time in the UK it was considered offensive to call a mixed race, child black because they patently were not. Bit like calling white people white when they are patently not either ;-)) from a personal perspective, i have pretty much removed myself from such debates within society. I just love and look after my wife and son, and as long as people do not stand in the way of that, we will always get on despite any perceived differences :-))
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Are the French more or less racist than the Brits?

What is different is that the French have little inhibition in publicly expressing views that would seem shocking if heard in open discussion in the UK.

Personally I think these subjects are usually raised more discretely back home.

Everyone has been well trained in the belief that things are better nowadays. Diversity Rules!

That's why so many people are heading for the exit as soon as they have the chance.

Ironic isn't it!

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"This is generalised to an extent you'd have to walk around with your eyes closed not to know it:
Yesterday's "
Le Monde" about the new F1 pilot signed on by Mc Laren "Lewis Hamilton is the first F1 BLACK driver"
What about the hooha all over the papers when TF1 put a
BLACK news presenter on their 8 pm news?"

Clair, I think you are being a little too sensitive. I see nothing negative in those comments, quite the opposite, because it shows that people from different racial backgrounds have broken into areas where they haven't featured before. You may ask why they thought it necessary to mention that these people are black - the answer is because it is of interest to those who like to see those from minorities succeeding. Just like, say, a female F1 driver, a disabled actor - or an English maire.

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I recieved this by email the other day and think it does go some way to explain why we have this underlying problem today.

Why Are Racists Only White People


You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction.

You call me "Whiteboy," "Cracker," "Honkey," "Whitey," "Caveman" and that's
OK.
But when I call you, nigger, Kike, Towelhead, Sand-nigger, Camel Jockey,
Beaner, Gook, or Chink you call me a racist.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the
ghettos the most
dangerous places to live?

You have the United Negro College Fund.
You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month.
You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Yom Hashoah
You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi
You have the NAACP.
You have BET.

If we had WET(White Entertainment Television) we'd be racists.
If we had a White Pride Day you would call us racists.
If we had white history month, we'd be racists
If we had an organization for only whites to "advance" our lives, we'd be
racists.
If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships, you
know we'd be racists.
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US , yet if there
were "White
colleges" that would be a racist college.
In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race
and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us
racists.
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid
to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer
shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug-dealer running from the
law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

I am proud. But, you call me a racist.
Why is it that only whites can be racists?

There is nothing improper about this email. Let's see which of you are proud
enough to forward it.

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Perhaps, Bugbear, it's because as the majority throughout most of human history, white people haven't NEEDED these types of organizations and celebrations, but minority groups have to try to put themselves on an even footing.

I agree that insults over race, color or religion are wrong no matter who is spouting them.  But the NAACP is there to help black people succeed, whereas a Whites Only organization would most likely be there with the main purpose of keeping others out.

It's a subtle difference, but an important one, I think.

PG

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Firstly I just wanted to say that I was writing this before Bugbear posted his/her post.

I think Will hit the nail on the head when he said about  why the word ‘black’ was used with regards to the F1 driver and the French newsreader, I am sure that’s how many think. But then the other point can also be valid depending on your own personal view, a touch of ‘psst aren’t we good people, were are not racist, we even let black people join’, its like that old cliché ‘I’m not racist some of my best friends are black’. In the case of the F1 driver there was no need to mention he was black, I think we could all see that on the TV and hopefully also when he wins (which I hope he does) he will be the first black person to win in F1 although I prefer to think it will be a win for an English driver.

My daughter used the term ‘mixed race’ as that is what she is, she also does not like the term ‘half caste’ but that’s her personal thing. She and I don’t see a problem with words that broadly describe a person or object like he/she is Asian, Black etc. It is after all what you look like. Many of her coloured friends don’t have a problem and when at a club and somebody says to them ‘who’s so and so’ they will reply that it’s the ’black guy over there talking to the two white girls’. No harm is intended it’s a easy quick description.

I often wonder if all the ‘do gooders’ who come out with all this rubbish and who are in the main part actually white are doing so to ease their own conscious. None of it is really that important, the only thing that is important is that we all treat each other the same, with respect, as a fellow human being. If white people really want to know what is acceptable then go and actually ask a black person and the answer will more likely be ‘as long as it’s not rude or disrespectful’. But let’s not forget what can be rude to one person may not be rude to another, it’s down to perception.

One thing for sure is don’t think racism is limited to white people. Believe me I have heard some really nasty stuff from members of the other half of my daughter’s family and their friends about whites, Asians and a couple of other races in between. I only know what they have said as black (ok brown) people and it makes me wonder how other people think like the Chinese for example.

One of the problems is however that racism is institutional and it’s both negative and positive, the latter being the worst kind as it condescending. A quick example of the positive racism happened with my daughter. She needed to take a financial exam. The prerequisite was that she had X amount of ‘O’ and ‘A’ levels and she was one short. She attended night school and took (I think it’s the correct title) Social Science. During the course, in Newham, the white teacher turned round and in the context of the subject said something along the lines of ‘well XXXX (my daughter) is a typical case in mind being mixed race does not know if she is black or white which will be a psychological scare she will have bear for the rest of her life and has obviously hindered her education as that is why she is here’.

My daughter asked why he was stereotyping and told him she had actually received a very high level of education at private (mainly Jewish – Alan Sugars daughter is one of her best mates and was in her class) school, had an excellent and very well paid job within a leading merchant bank and that she only needed this qualification to make the numbers up. She got her ‘O’ level, took her financial exam (with a 96% pass) was head hunted and is now a Vice President in another very large merchant bank in London and yes she gets one of those disgustingly large bonus cheques at the end of the year. Makes a change to be ‘tapping’ of her for a change [:D] .

So to get back on subject, nobody ‘notices’ her in the UK for her colour but here (in France) it’s different. Is it the area in which we live, I don’t know it’s quite rural here but at the end of the day do we really care, no we don’t, we are what we are and that’s all there is to it. As my father always taught me and as I have instilled in my daughter, good manners and civility cost nothing in life irregardless of race, colour or religion.

PS. I never knew all 'carjackers' were black, well theres a thing, I thought they were criminals and colour never came in to it.

ED. I thought the program a few weeks back on UK TV where they tested DNA from people to find out which part of the world they really came from. Didn't you just love it when a couple of those bigoted sh1ts got their comeuppance especially the stuck up lady and the chap to was made to realize that actually Ian Wright was more English than him. Did I laugh or did I laugh.

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[quote user="Will "]Clair, I think you are being a little too sensitive. I see nothing negative in those comments, quite the opposite, because it shows that people from different racial backgrounds have broken into areas where they haven't featured before. You may ask why they thought it necessary to mention that these people are black - the answer is because it is of interest to those who like to see those from minorities succeeding. Just like, say, a female F1 driver, a disabled actor - or an English maire.[/quote]

I would say that I am possibly more aware.

If French society as a whole was interested in seeing monorities succeed, its governement would ensure adequate data is compiled (at census time possibly) in order, for a start,  for the existing anti-discrimination laws to be seen to be applied.

But there is progress in the pipeline. See here for comments about the possibility of asking people about their ethnic background which, at present, is against the law in France.

There has to be more information available in order to change people's general attitude.

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Quillan, I think your point about it being a rural area is a good one.  I found it very disturbing when we first moved here to be only surrounded by "white" faces. I've never lived anywhere this "white" before and I do sometimes find that a bit strange.

Los Angeles is a giant melting pot of races, religions and cultures.  Our neighborhood had white, latino, asian, black, Israeli, Greek and just about every other group you could imagine.  No one was particularly concerned about who their neighbors were as long as they kept their property nice and didn't have loud parties all the time.

On the other hand, we visited friends in South Carolina a few years back, and I found it very odd.  Almost EVERY conversation managed to bring race into it.  In Los Angeles, no one ever discussed it, because it didn't seem to matter.

Now, we did have gang problems around our area, although not IN our neighborhood per se.  But that is an endemic problem in Los Angeles and most other big American cities.  I didn't blame all Latinos, Blacks or Asians for the problems of the gangs, just the members of the gangs themselves.

I think gangs can start up with any race though; it's a problem of kids feeling disaffected and needing to "belong" to something bigger than themselves.  Too bad they never seem to turn that need to doing good instead of bad though...

PG

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Possum Girl "But the NAACP is there to help black people succeed, whereas a Whites Only organization would most likely be there with the main purpose of keeping others out."

You really believe that ?

What about the MOBO awards, designed purely to celebrate Black music. Now theres nothing wrong with that except try doing the same to celebrate White only music.....

It is well reported in the UK that Bradford has the equivelent of 'Thomsons directory' published by Asian businessmen and available only to Asian businesses. Try setting up a white only version of that.

The whole 'race' thing has grown simply because we are told by our 'masters' how to treat people from other races. Left alone, most people would have worked it out, by now without the racism we have today.

My personal view, shared by many, is that I really don't have a problem with people of any colour, creed etc, provided they work, contribute to society and don't steal from me. The failings of the UK government to curb the flow of immigrants into the UK that do not fall into those categories, is the primary cause for the problems today.

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Bugbear, I think the NAACP certainly started out as an organization to help people.  Has it evolved into something else?  I don't know.

As to racism; I think that humans (of all races) are genetically programmed to fear that which is different.  It's one of those ugly truths about our species that most of us would rather ignore. 

However, we're supposed to strive to rise above that.  Sadly, I think we often fail...

PG

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It is well reported in the UK that Bradford has the equivelent of

'Thomsons directory' published by Asian businessmen and available only

to Asian businesses. Try setting up a white only version of that.

There are plenty of "Brit" directories in France. Tradesmen and service

providers that are able to provide English language services to the

non-French speaking community. It's not a bad comparison - they are

exclusive and succeed on the basis of a failure to integrate at the

most basic level, ie to speak the language of the country in which one

lives.

I'm not a fan of "positive" discrimination, precisely because it does

encourage the sort of remarks and attitudes I've quoted above. That

said, I cannot deny that it is necessary.

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[quote user="Quillan"] I thought the program a few weeks back on UK TV where they tested DNA from people to find out which part of the world they really came from. Didn't you just love it when a couple of those bigoted sh1ts got their comeuppance especially the stuck up lady and the chap to was made to realize that actually Ian Wright was more English than him. Did I laugh or did I laugh.[/quote]

I was absolutely fascinated throughout.

I did find the program a bit facile, but had a good chuckle about the solicitor (Harold, 1066, Saxon ethnic cleansing) and her threats to sue the program makers when her DNA test revealed she might not be as pure as she thought!!

In dreamland, would taking such a test make people more tolerant?
I, for one,  would love to find out more about the circumstances that have lead to my being here.

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"I think gangs can start up with any race though; it's a problem of kids feeling disaffected and needing to "belong" to something bigger than themselves.  Too bad they never seem to turn that need to doing good instead of bad though"

It's what the TV programs portray and what the news media puts out. Every country in the world has areas in their inner cities that have gangs and people 'hanging out' on street corners. There are parts of London where I would not go, there are parts of Toulous I would not go, even Carcassonne and Perpignan have places where you are more likely to be robbed than sunny Quillan.

Kids also immitate and they do copy whats on TV especially if it's a news item or a popular TV series. To be honest, nothing personal, but American TV has a lot to answer for. I mean you can't see even a tit (sorry ladies) but you can see somebody cut a persons throat in graffic detail. In crime programs, and there is a lot of them it seems in the US, they show the gangs which others try to copy. Of course the countries that buy these programs are also responcible by buying them in the first place and it's a business but I am sure if countries stopped buying the programs it would help. I suppose it a bit like who do you blame, the drug growers or the drug dealers, the growers do it to live the deals do it to get rich.

There is an answer to this, somewhere, but I don't know where. What I do think is not the answer is to put law on top of law and the same with political correctness. Perhaps the answer is as simple as just teaching people how it feels like to be called names etc. Perhaps it is us 'grown' ups that have the problem, I mean you walk past schools with kids from 5 to 10 years and they do not seem to have (in general) racial problems, the kids don't seem to notice the colour of the person they are playing with. So no rules or laws just education which may be the way forward but I don't think it's that simple, life seldom is.

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"In dreamland, would taking such a test make people more tolerant?"

No I don't think for one minute it would. It's was just a sad attempt I think of saying "think before you act or say".  I have always believed it's what you are that counts and some people live on a totally different planet to the rest of us. I quess 'that woman' no longer has people banging on her door offering her business because she showed herself to be a total idiot, nothing to do with being racist, but just as two bricks short of a load. Tthe ones that do go calling are probably the ones nobody else in their right mind would take on.

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[;-)][quote user="Quillan"]

Perhaps it is us 'grown' ups that have the problem, I mean you walk past schools with kids from 5 to 10 years and they do not seem to have (in general) racial problems, the kids don't seem to notice the colour of the person they are playing with. So no rules or laws just education which may be the way forward but I don't think it's that simple, life seldom is.

[/quote]

No indeed it's not.  It is sometimes EXTREMELY complicated.   My son has a schoolfriend who is what you would call "Arabic" looking.  I mean, no doubt about it.  His dad is Egyptian, mum is white, the dad's racial origins have come out in the boy, the mum's racial origins have come out in the girl.   Now, here's the odd thing - mum is outspoken in her dislike of les Arabes - I don't need to go into the usual guff, we've all heard it.

And here's the odder thing - boy is now of same opinion as mum.   Les Arabes are this, les Arabes are that, and you look at him and it just doesn't make sense.   I suspect that she has instilled in him a belief that people don't like Arabs, so at some level he fears that people will look at him and hate him for his skin colour, so he's doing all he can to dissociate himself from les Arabes.  "I look like one, but I'm not one, okay?"

What's worse is that he's now extending this dislike to others.   My son said that last time a group of them were in town, this lad took out his purse, then suddenly snapped it shut and hid it again as a black couple walked past, and he said (in French, obviously!) "What am I thinking of, opening my purse when there are black people about?".  [8-)]

Sadly, this is otherwise an intelligent, artistic, caring boy.    And that's the difference here - it's not a black-and-white issue in France. [;-)]    Somehow it's "okay" to dislike Arabs but have Arabic friends, it's "okay" to be Socialist and work for equality but still think there are too many blacks around, and so on.

The fact that this is generally accepted is an interesting twist on the idea of tolerance, really.   French people will (mostly) accept you for what you are.   They are quite capable of liking you while not agreeing with your politics or your religious beliefs or anything else.   It's a completely different way of looking at people, and like any other way it has its good and its bad points.    

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Eenterestingly..... Le Pen did offer a "toned down" message recently, to the effect that those who integrated were acceptable and allowed to stay.   These people will presumably be the equivalent of those good Jews.

This may appear to be a good thing, but it's not, because it catches all those millions of people who think that's fair enough.   It is, after all, a sentiment that is often voiced on here, by people who would never otherwise think of themselves as racist in any way.

The problem is that he doesn't explain what he means by integration.   It may well include giving up your religion if it is something other than Christianity, for example, we just don't know.    But it is a clever move on his part.   Or at least an attempt at a clever move.    How many signatures has he got so far? 

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On the subject of young children picking up on racial prejudice, there was a large family (22children) near us in Hull, Mum arab, father black. One day one of the granchildren, a darkskinned toddler yelled across the road at me "clear off you black b--stard". Poor child, he would grow up so confused. Pat.

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[quote user="chief"]I am always surprised when i get told or read that France is supposed to be a very racist society.  I personally, either as a black man or englishman, have never overtly come across it despite my many travels in France...  I am sure it is there, and wouldn't be naive enough to believe it wasn't, but to be honest, you would expect to pick up undertones if nothing else if it was a prevalent feature of French society, and i just don't seem to be getting that.[/quote]

Chief, it may be the undertones that most surprise you. If you haven't watched a lot of French TV for instance, you may be surprised just different the representation of African-French is compared to in UK.

The fuss about the first African-French presenter for the main news slot (a temporary gig only) was Big News here. It would have justified Mr Rosselmack headlining his first time up with ...himself[:D]. So, I don't see the reporting of the race of the F1 winner as being racist. It's news, or at the very least, noteworthy, just as Arthur Ashe winning Wimbledon was, back in the day

I'm pretty sure things are changing now, but until recently you wouldn't see a person from a 'visible' ethnic minority unless they fitted into some weary old stereotype - the 'inscrutable chinaman' the 'jolly laughing dancing caribbean woman' 'the voodoo woman' (that was a cheese ad, by the way) 'the 'exotic African woman' (mostly eating chocolate or drinking coffee) - unless the advert originated elsewhere (IBM for instance).

It's my impression that people here who are racist, are more overtly so than we from the UK are used to. Other people have made similar comments and given examples so I won't dwell on that.

I strongly agree with Clairs and Saligo Bays' comments about institutional racism - and Saligo Bay gave a pretty good example of that with her reference to the deputies and the 'Enarkes'. 

Going back to TV, the regional news will often have clips of meetings of regional representatives, including Mayors. When the camera pans around two hundred faces, there are no non European ones there . When the Students were protesting earlier this year against proposed employment legislation, meetings were held (and reported in regional news slots) in large lecture theatres, and of course there were some very large marches but in this area, the University (at La Rochelle)  seemed to have either very a-political African-French students, or just two of them!  I was watching all this very carefully, and another thing that struck me then, and since then, is that when you see a 'scrum' of journalists and photographers, the same thing is true.

Finally, that stupid 'poem' has been doing the rounds on extreme right wing websites for a year or so. It's probably a 'sticky' at S tormfront. I'd just like to say that I see it as double-speak masqeurading as so called commonsense and I wish it had never been posted on this site. 

 

 

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I agree about the 'poem' Tresco - real weasel words. I've seen it before and it is the sign of the closet racist.

As far as young Hamilton goes, he is a bit of a phenomenon in a sport that has been completely dominated by white males (apart from 2 women and one Indian in the past 20 years). He is widely seen as the Tiger Woods of motorsport, partly because he breaks the ethnic stereotype so prevalent in the sport, and secondly because he is just so very talented. For that reason he has been very carefully nurtured.

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As a newcomer here, first I would like to say how impressed I am by both  tone and content of this discussion and how everyone  is so civilised and respectful of each other's points of view!

I have hesitated before contributing the following, as it is (perhaps) essentially anecdotal, and as such not worth contemplating. And yet... when it happened I was so horrified I thought it must be a joke, or another urban myth. But no....

In my small town, as my cat has disappeared and I was looking everywhere, the police (tongue-in-cheek?) ,   sent me to seeI a woman running some cat rescue association single-handedWhen I went to see her, she conspirationally told me how there was (yes you guessed right) a VERY black man around, who was "known" to be responsible for the disappearance of a number of cats, he would catch them, and eat them. He had been living in the nearest town, but apprently she had now seen him in "our" town, with his (equally very black) wife always walking a few paces behind him. She had known of his evil ways when he was in the next town, and apparently she had tried to denounce him to the police and the mayor, who would not do anything. I tried to get more details out of her in an attempt to demolish her story, to no avail, so I then dismissed her as being quite deranged.

However, a little while later, another woman who was in my yoga class (local, French, respectable pillar of the community, her son being a vet, she a cat lover with many cats in her home),  told me the same story, with added details, swearing blind that she had seen it herself!!! i.e. the very same black man, who would lure cats back to his little house (in the woods?) and then eat them "like they do in his country",  skin them and sell the skin. Again I tried to challenge her, but I was so flabbergasted that I simply could not make any headway...what was so disturbing is that this woman swore blind that she had seen it with her own eyes.... and this is the end of my story, I did not hear anymore from anyone.

Untypical? Probably, at least I should hope so.

But it also reminds me, when I was growing up in France about 50 years ago, of the incipient and ubiquitous racism against "les Arabes": "everyone knew" how they would steal, alwayscarried a knife and would betray you and knife you in the back, and any French girl/woman who was friendly became "une fille qui va avec les Arabes", i.e. seriously tainted. There is also still the stereotyped notions of a French person from Guadeloupe or Renion or Martinique as being lazy and happy-go-lucky, if it is a woman she is an "oiseau des iles", shallow and sensuous and only interested in a good time. I could go on... 

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I would like to believe that it is untypical, but I know it isn't.

In the UK we have had 20+ years of serious attempts to educate people to be more tolerant, and yet I know of many people who are still unreformed racists - in the way you describe. Perhaps it will take a lot longer than we thought. Despite appeals to 'égalité' I feel that nowhere near as much has been done in France until recently, and that certainly seemed to be the message of he riots last year.

Yet most young people that I know (and I know a lot) aren't racist in that way. Certainly black and white kids who have grown up together get along pretty well, although there tends to be a segregation after about 14 they have learned enough not to let that be a serious problem. Which is good, but doesn't affect the older generations. Education and intelligence also play a large part.

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