Renaud Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Jon Said "If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile."Sorry to disagree.One of my friends, educated in Dublin was made to learn Gaelic at school, a language which he says neither himself nor his friends have ever used since. Doubtless this was to give the language an "elevated profile." What a crap reason.If people want to elevate the profile of a language they can take to an evening class but do not force children to learn something useless for sad ideas of national esteem.To be bi-lingual in a living european language is a fantastic gift on the employment market. Please give schoolchilden the chance to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlic Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Yes you see here we don't eat du pain (pan?) which I understand is generally eaten in France, no we don't we eat something called payng...It is jolly nice though and resembles that British treat known as bread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanguedocGal2 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="wen"]Very eloquent Dick...ever wondered why Shakespeares characters never spoke with regional accents though? No thats not a riddle, I really am curious.[blink][/quote]Good question!Even if Dick Smith has given the official answer, I think the real reason is that the RSC, RADA and LAMDA got together and decided otherwise[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastobe Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="wen"]Notice though I did not say 'British' but 'English'.[/quote]Which is odd because I am proud to be English - but not British. I think that has also been one of the big criticisms of the propsed 'Britishness classes' - people associate more with being English, Welsh etc - than being British.Kathie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="Jon"]1) Which language would British pupils be best advised to learn. French? German? Spainish? Something from the PRC? They cannot learn them all... [/quote]Personally I'd like to see them learning English properly!Joking apart, if you have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of your own language and some understanding of the derivation of vocabulary it can facilitate the learning of foreign languages at any stage in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzen Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I was having a conversation about whether we thought of ourselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or British at school the other day and one of our group said that as we were living in Germany, he actually thought of himself as being 'European' - rather than British, Scottish - and if he is in UK he usually thinks of himself as coming from Argyll as in actual fact his father came from East Anglia. The children at school call him 'The Viking' as he has long blonde hair and a beard - just needs the axe and helmet really.As my ancestors are such a mixed bad, I think I'll have to settle for European as well.[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzen Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="KathyC"]Personally I'd like to see them learning English properly!Joking apart, if you have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of your own language and some understanding of the derivation of vocabulary it can facilitate the learning of foreign languages at any stage in the future.[/quote]So would I and maybe if the government would leave the school curriculum alone long enough, we could get round to teaching it! I know that knowing about grammar was a great help to me when learning languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="KathyC"] Personally I'd like to see them learning English properly!Joking apart, if you have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of your own language and some understanding of the derivation of vocabulary it can facilitate the learning of foreign languages at any stage in the future.[/quote] But Kathy, the majority of adults don't have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of English. It's something I meet every day. Almost every other nationality (and I've met people from dozens of countries in the context of teaching English) are able to understand tenses, know what an adjective is, and a preposition, and a noun, etc., but if you talk to the average English person about modal verbs, phrasal verbs, conjunctions, prepositions etc., they don't have a clue!! I'm talking about people from their 20's upwards, many of whom are in senior roles and can write fluently, but they've never been taught grammar. When I did my ESOL training, it amazed me that not one person on my course had a really sound knowledge of grammar (and I include myself!) and yet a number were language graduates........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Can I please put the 'Britishness Classes' thing into context?Keith Ajegbo was asked by the DfES to look at how Citizenship was progressing. This has been a 'proper' subject for a few years, with an exam etc., but not all schools were taking it seriously. Which, in my opinion, was not surprising, as it was a politicians' idea of what they would like kids to know, but in the way of politicians when faced with the opportunity to do something like this they made a hash of defining it. The idea is popular, but when you try to pin it down to practicalities it sort of slips through your fingers. So Sir Keith has recommended that, in view of current concerns, the Citizenship syllabus should include this Britishness thing. I don't really think that anyone will have a much clearer idea of what it will contain, but perhaps he will enlighten us in due course.As far as teaching Modern Foreign Languages is concerned there is much flirtation with teaching them at primary level, but as always a lack of suitably qualified teachers. As a language college we do undertake some work in primary schools, but there is a limit to what we can do. We also try to teach all pupils two MFLs, with talented pupils taking examinations earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="Dick Smith"]As far as teaching Modern Foreign Languages is concerned there is much flirtation with teaching them at primary level, but as always a lack of suitably qualified teachers. [/quote] Dick, one of my students is a primary teacher. She's expected to teach French and she's currently learning it with me! (A case of the blind being lead by the partially sighted[:P]). She's doing this for other reasons, and at her own expense, but would be the first to admit that she's not necessarily best placed to be teaching the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Yes, but schools are crammed full with teachers who trained before this requirement/recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOMY Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Miki says :but Domy, do keep on posting, it is for some, the way I read it, the only chance they have of contact with a French person !--------------------------------------------And you are the only chance I have to chat with a British food critic !!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastobe Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Jon"]1) Which language would British pupils be best advised to learn. French? German? Spainish? Something from the PRC? They cannot learn them all... [/quote]Personally I'd like to see them learning English properly!Joking apart, if you have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of your own language and some understanding of the derivation of vocabulary it can facilitate the learning of foreign languages at any stage in the future.[/quote]That is so true KathyC - if you don't know what the future conditional is in English how on earth are you supposed to understand it in French? We were horrified at our children's lack of understanding of English grammer and are now teaching it at home - and I'm sure our children aren't unusual.Kathie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzen Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The problem with getting a foreign language taught in Primary schools is because the curriculum is already full; this means that is often taught as an extra curricular activity, so not all the pupils can do it. Where I am in Germany, teaching as a supply teacher in a Middle school, all the children learn German. Teaching a language at Primary level does not need an expert linguist, because it is fairly simple language we are teaching. Also some authorities are very good at putting on courses for those teachers who wish to teach a language.Grammar is now being taught from an early age in schools, BUT for many years it wasn't as so called experts deemed it unnecessary. Therefore there is a generation of people who don't know their full stops from their capital letters, and as for what a tense is ......????? I have always taught grammar to my classes, whether as a supply teacher or full time. I agree that understanding grammar is a great help to understanding the structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="DOMY"]Miki says :but Domy, do keep on posting, it is for some, the way I read it, the only chance they have of contact with a French person !--------------------------------------------And you are the only chance I have to chat with a British food critic !!! :)[/quote]So you are lucky [;-)] and so are the folks, who should now learn more of one Frenchmans take on life in his country.By the way, we all support CFC on here [;-)] And one lady stalks Zizou, so she doesn't [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumziGal Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="Dotty "]Britain is strugglingto hold on to its greatness as it once had and was a country many nations aspired to.[/quote]But English-speaking culture isn't just Britain. It's also America, whose culture the French embrace eagerly in many forms, whatever they may say to the contrary.Rock'n'roll, rap, blockbuster films, Harry Potter books, you name it, a huge part of French cultural life comes from English. Maybe your local ploucs are still stuck on 50s music or whatever, but modern French yoof have moved on a bit! One day it will be different, and a language other than English will be the dominant one (will you all feel better then?), but that's the way it is just now. It doesn't mean that one country is better or worse than the other, or that one language is better than another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumziGal Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="Dick Smith"][The only real problems I've had in France were when I was taken for German. It's the name [/quote]I can't even use my name as an excuse. They just think I'm German anyway. Could be the moustache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 As far as teaching Modern Foreign Languages is concerned there is much flirtation with teaching them at primary level, but as always a lack of suitably qualified teachers I'm not sure if it is flirting with learning english in french primary schools. The qualified teachers do it now in our village, whether they can speak english or not. Reminds me of when those of us parents who wanted to accompany the kids to swimming lessons, we parents had to be tested to see if they could swim and rescue, the teachers didn't, being a qualified teacher was sufficient (even if they couldn't swim). So are they being 'serious' about teaching the kids english, or what?[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzen Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="Teamedup"]Reminds me of when those of us parents who wanted to accompany the kids to swimming lessons, we parents had to be tested to see if they could swim and rescue, the teachers didn't, being a qualified teacher was sufficient (even if they couldn't swim). [/quote][:D] That must have been a long time ago! [:D] You certainly wouldn't get away with that now - mind you, you would probably be waiting for your CRB clearance!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzen Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The 'flirtation' is probably because there's no funding for it! The government needs to put its money where it's mouth is. (I wonder where that might be?????[I] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="Renaud"]Jon Said "If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile." Sorry to disagree. One of my friends, educated in Dublin was made to learn Gaelic at school, a language which he says neither himself nor his friends have ever used since. Doubtless this was to give the language an "elevated profile." What a crap reason. If people want to elevate the profile of a language they can take to an evening class but do not force children to learn something useless for sad ideas of national esteem. To be bi-lingual in a living european language is a fantastic gift on the employment market. Please give schoolchilden the chance to start.[/quote]renaudit's not as simple as that. take welsh, for example. the vast majority of the population here do not speak welsh; in fact, people often remark how i, as a foreigner, can speak welsh when they can't. i don't speak much welsh as a matter of fact, just know quite a bit of it and understand a lot of it. yet, all road signs, official communication, etc are bilingual. also, there is s4c, welsh tv, which is the most subsidised tv in the world when you take into consideration the cost per capita of the people who do watch it and can understand it.nevertheless, many, many parents (non welsh speakers themselves) send their children to schools teaching in the welsh medium. there is a cachet in some circles attached to the ability to communicate in welsh. also, some government posts specify ability to communicate in welsh.there is no "crap" reason to learn a language AS LONG AS THERE IS A FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE attached. by financial advantage, i mean political advantage as well, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="Dick Smith"][The only real problems I've had in France were when I was taken for German. It's the name [/quote]I can't even use my name as an excuse. They just think I'm German anyway. Could be the moustache.[/quote]No I do think you have got away with the moustache, don't think this personal but could it be zat stiff walk and the nasty look of the pooch that walks alongside you [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="DOMY"]. And I have no problems with Britts living here, except, when I read Wen's statement ....[/quote] Hi Domy, please don't let Wen's statement give you a problem with the Brits. She is Australian[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="hastobe"][quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Jon"]1) Which language would British pupils be best advised to learn. French? German? Spainish? Something from the PRC? They cannot learn them all... [/quote]Personally I'd like to see them learning English properly!Joking apart, if you have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of your own language and some understanding of the derivation of vocabulary it can facilitate the learning of foreign languages at any stage in the future.[/quote]That is so true KathyC - if you don't know what the future conditional is in English how on earth are you supposed to understand it in French? We were horrified at our children's lack of understanding of English grammer and are now teaching it at home - and I'm sure our children aren't unusual.Kathie[/quote]Unfortunately there was a longish period when English grammar wasn't taught in schools. That's meant that there are many young (and not so young) teachers who don't have the subject knowledge to pass on. Although there are courses and books available to help them aquire this knowledge, I've come across many who don't seem really committed to the teaching of grammar, having been taught during their formative years that it was really not important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzen Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote user="KathyC"]Unfortunately there was a longish period when English grammar wasn't taught in schools. That's meant that there are many young (and not so young) teachers who don't have the subject knowledge to pass on. Although there are courses and books available to help them aquire this knowledge, I've come across many who don't seem really committed to the teaching of grammar, having been taught during their formative years that it was really not important.[/quote]Absolutely right, it started in the 1970's along with the integrated day. However, grammar has to be taught nowadays as it's a big part of the Literacy strategy. I'm teaching time and causal connectives, along with subordinate and main clauses to Y5 next week. We seem to have gone from none to overkill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now