After the election

[Nessie]

If immigration is high on his agenda what's the general view on Brits moving to France?  Restriction or encouragement because we are a source of income?

[Tony F Dordogne]

Will be interesting to see whether or not he reintroduces the carte de sejour.  I've not needed one (came to France after requirement finished) but will be interesting to see whether he uses that or something similar as an economic determinant of people's ability to move to France and not be a 'drain' on the French state, don't have the money to support yourself, not allowed in and therefore cannot claim RMI etc.

I know there are EU regs which theoretically allow freedom of movement and domicile but it will be interesting to see whether Sarkozy does what the UK has done (to various nationals of Easter European countries) and restrict benefits, housing etc for people from the EU.

 

[Clair]

Regardless of who has been elected, to have riots breaking out after a democratic election in a

democratic country shows that some serious changes have to be made.

[Tag]

Reading some of the blogs it seems that people are mainly concerned with having their rice bowls broken. But next there are the legislatives in June is it? If these produce a left of centre parlimant then things will get even more interesting. Sixth Republic?

But you are right about law and order though.

[Patf]

I heard today that Sarkozy plans to stop university grants for children not born in France. If it goes through. Pat.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Patf"]I heard today that Sarkozy plans to stop university grants for children not born in France. If it goes through. Pat.[/quote]

What was your source for that and how reliable do you think it is?

There will clearly be all sorts of rumours flying around so I think it might be helpful if you can tell us where this one came from.

[Patf]

I heard it from a friend in the market. She's usually very reliable, not a panicker, and has children approaching university age. But it is only hearsay from my point of view. Next time I see her I will ask where she got the news from. Pat.

[Patf]

I asked about this story today and my friend said it was just a rumour from another friend. She also said that her youngest, aged 10, came home from school and told her that M. Sarkozy was going to cut the school day to 10am to 3.30pm. So she told him he would have to go to school on Wednesdays to make up the time. Pat.

[TreizeVents]

I guess it pays to read the press or check on the internet about these rumours.  You can hear all sorts of things in the market, and believe me, I have.  Mind you, that happens in Britain and everywhere.  Over the years, it has made  me very sceptical, often offensively so to some people, when I hear a "native" give me his or her view on something in their own coutnry.  I seldom give it any more credence than if I saw it on TV or read it.  Some people think that if they ask a "French person", then they will find out something accurate.  But when you think about it, would you believe your English neighbour about matters political or even cultural, just because they were English. 

There is utterly no chance that the school day will be shortened.  Think about it.  What would happen to all the kids?  And the parents who are meant to be working  more to earn more.   And which social service would look after the kids since most of the auxiliary staff have been sent away or privatised.  Naw, most likely they will cut a few more teachers, and hire some cheap child minders and have the kids do homework in required study rooms. 

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Alan D"]If immigration is high on his agenda what's the general view on Brits moving to France?  Restriction or encouragement because we are a source of income?[/quote]

Just to respond to the original question.  If you are white, educated, "well off", European, have an income, own a house, I think it is safe to say that you have no worries at all, ever, under any French government.  In fact,  maybe four of the six would keep you safe.   "The immigration" problem is not and never has been about ANY immigrants, only persons of colour or poor people. 

I am willing to bet you a meal at Le Fouquet's on it.  The immigration problem, oddly enough, is not really about immigration.

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Will be interesting to see whether or not he reintroduces the carte de sejour.  I've not needed one (came to France after requirement finished) but will be interesting to see whether he uses that or something similar as an economic determinant of people's ability to move to France and not be a 'drain' on the French state, don't have the money to support yourself, not allowed in and therefore cannot claim RMI etc.

I know there are EU regs which theoretically allow freedom of movement and domicile but it will be interesting to see whether Sarkozy does what the UK has done (to various nationals of Easter European countries) and restrict benefits, housing etc for people from the EU.

[/quote]

We can but speculate and, ignoring EU regs, that's what I'll do here.

On the ‘drain on the French State’ aspect, . The RMI probably wouldn’t save the state that much because everything I read suggests it's a pittance like Income Support (of course with related advantages).

The carte de sejour would just be a bureaucratic and costly nonsense as it only determines someone’s capacity to fund themselves at the time of application and possibly a year or two thereafter. Someone could arrive with means and things change for the worse after a few years once they have the Carte. Would they be deported then? Highly unlikely, so what is the point?

Let’s call a spade a spade.

I think Sarkozy would simply have to target access to the health service to save a bundle for the State. This would affect all immigrants and save them a packet. That would mean people like us having to take out much more expensive health policies to cover what the French State would not. The real saving is thus in health.

France will also become considerably less attractive to a certain category of British immigrant as well if access to healthcare became very expensive.

[cooperlola]

LDG, are not the contributions which we make into the health system the same as a native-born French person?  When we're on E106/121's it's the UK who coughs up, isn't it?  Otherwise the rules on our payments are the same, aren't they?

  Different if you turn up here with nothing, but then it becomes a matter of whether one believes one has a moral obligation to help support those in need, or to send them back to whatever appalling circumstances caused them to leave where they came from in the first place.

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Alan D"]If immigration is high on his agenda what's the general view on Brits moving to France?  Restriction or encouragement because we are a source of income?[/quote]

''Because we are a source of income''.

Yes, a source of income but hope no one is smug about it.

As France does not seem to appeal to a huge number of young active Brits, how much can the income be globally?  I'm not trying to minimise the contribution of the retired/semi retired living in France but it cannot be denied that between the option of the young active French (who move to the UK) and the older generation (myself included) moving here, I suspect that an economy looking to ''encourage'' immigration, would prefer the former.

I also suspect (to be blunt) that the health consumption by all of us, could outweigh our contribution after a number of years even with top-up insurance policies.

So, as TV says, when the French talk about immigration, they do tend to refer to people of colour (though not exclusively in my experience), none the less, the fact that France seems to attract so many European immigrants of a certain age is also an economic reality it has to face and probably take some difficult measures to be able to cope should the trend continue.

Edit: Cooperlola, saw your post after I posted this. Perhaps this explains what I meant better?

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

LDG, are not the contributions which we make into the health system the same as a native-born French person?  When we're on E106/121's it's the UK who coughs up, isn't it?  Otherwise the rules on our payments are the same, aren't they?

  Different if you turn up here with nothing, but then it becomes a matter of whether one believes one has a moral obligation to help support those in need, or to send them back to whatever appalling circumstances caused them to leave where they came from in the first place.

[/quote]

Cooperlola, I was concentrating on Tony’s ‘Drain on the State’ by immigrants statement but to answer the first part of your question in more depth.

 A French person and an immigrant who moves to France many years prior to retirement, work/pay taxes AND pay contributions to the health system over a number of years. It’s not the same as someone who moves to France having paid taxes abroad (any country) and is then able to benefit from 70% (or whatever) as those who have lived and worked here.

Yes, I know that retired people pay taxes on their investments etc etc but it’s not the same as a Native/immigrant who has been living and working in France for many years, and Tony was talking about a ‘drain’. Health is an enormous drain on the French  (or any) economy and solving the funding is a major issue.

The state could decide that immigrants who retire here (as this trend may continue) pay to cover, say 80% of their health costs. For those who move here pre-retirement, a qualifying tax and health contribution period could be levied. This would lead to a substantial saving and less of a drain on the state than the other measures Tony mentioned.

There are, of course, other issues such as the same applying to French immigrants in other EU countries. However, it would still be beneficial for the French state to pick up the tab for their nationals in EU countries, as most are younger and working in those countries. A levy could be raised on their earnings abroad towards the French state health costs.  From what I can gather, most French people stay/return to France or move to one of their Outre-Mer islands on retirement and are thus taken care of by the system they have contributed to all their lives. However, France attracts a high number of foreign retirees and this raises other health funding issues.

I personally believe that the huge deficit in the French health budget comes from the French themselves but if immigrants are going to raise these issues, as Tony did, then let’s consider the most effective potential areas of saving, and health is a major one with an enormous deficit.

As for your final point, I will not deal with that here, as that is a whole other issue from that raised by Tony, which seems to refer to EU immigrants.

By the way, I don't work for Sarko[Www]

[Benjamin]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

  When we're on E106/121's it's the UK who coughs up, isn't it?

 

[/quote]

LanguedocGal

I think it's the little bit above that I've quoted that cooperlola was asking you to comment on.

I certainly would like to hear your answer as it's a bit of a grey area. It really is a question of whether people here with E106/E121's are actually costing the French health system anything.

[cooperlola]

It really is an interesting question, and was a serious one.  Does any money change hands or is it just a "reciprocal" arrangement whereby it's hoped that the numbers balance and nobody loses out?

[LanguedocGal]

Truth is, I don’t know for sure but my hunch (not worth much), unless the system has changed is, yes.

Why? I understood – going back a few years  -that a flat rate was paid for each person on these schemes and the UK or other govt will pay a certain amount. The issue here too is that health costing in France is notoriously bad (see their deficit) and unless the EU govt provides something like 30/40K per year per person, I would say that each govt wherever one resides carries the surplus costs.  Of course, with a flat rate provision, costs can also be offset by the provision for those who do not require treatment, but the initial amount still has to be considerable if the trend is for an aging population of immigrants to France. For me, budgeting for health is like for renovations; if you think you will need 60K then assume you actually need double and the older we get, the more important that becomes.

I will use my own example; I recently went to into hospital and stayed overnight. I managed to note some of the charges displayed and based on a 24-hour stay and treatment, the rate would have been in the region of 3000-3500 euros.  We are used to paying the top-up and so we believe that the service is really really cheap, but it’s not.

Of course, if the system is now such that the EU govt’s are invoiced for ‘each and every’ hospital visit/doctor appointment/medication, lab tests, x rays etc etc, then the answer is that the costs are fully met via the various E forms. I just cannot see each govt invoicing the patient's home country for every single treatment. What bureaucratic nightmare and which UK dept deals with this?

I’m no longer in touch with my colleague who had details on this but someone on here may know.

I apologise for basing this on a hunch (but what the heck![Www]) and general reading on the French health service, but I can’t do better right now and I’d be more than happy if anyone knew the amount each govt provides on the E121/E106. 

Reading posts on this forum, I often get the impression that many think they are 'net contributors' and perhaps that's true, but I think the health funding issue could provide a clearer picture.

It may be that it's in the UK's advantage for their retired folks to emigrate but is it in the interest of the host nation? Discuss.

I'm not suggesting that people should be denied health provision (before anyone bites my head off[:D]) but the issue of 'drain on the state' was raised and this seemed to me to be an obvious one, so it would be a delight to be proven wrong, because the French health deficit is no laughing matter.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

I’m no longer in touch with my colleague who had details on this but someone on here may know.

I apologise for basing this on a hunch (but what the heck![Www]) and general reading on the French health service, but I can’t do better right now and I’d be more than happy if anyone knew the amount each govt provides on the E121/E106. 

[/quote]

Thank you for this honest statement of your current knowledge.

[Patf]

I have asked this question before on the Health forum ie if we have an E121 or E106 does the uk govt. actually send money across? Or are they billed as the expenses arise? I did read in French News that for the E121 they send £2000pa per person. But FN sometimes gets things wrong. Ron replied that they did send something but wasn't specific. Perhaps Peter Owen can answer this. Or maybe the office in Newcastle. I will try to ring them tomorrow. Pat.

[Patf]

I spoke to someone at Newcastle today and she confirmed that they pay the french health service a flat rate per year per person covered by an E form. It goes out monthly. The amount used to be £2000, she doesn't know how much now. It doesn't sound a lot, but she said it averages out as Languedocgal says when many people don't go to the doctor. Pat.

[WJT]

[quote user="Patf"]The amount used to be £2000, she doesn't know how much now. It doesn't sound a lot, but she said it averages out as Languedocgal says when many people don't go to the doctor. Pat.[/quote]

I would agree with that statement where it would include for example many young people going to the UK from France. But when it involves many retirees that move to France from the UK, you could see where it could become very problematic and costly.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="WJT"]

 But when it involves many retirees that move to France from the UK, you could see where it could become very problematic and costly.

[/quote]

Sorry WJT I don't neccessarily buy that. [:D]

I could tell you how much we've benefited from the French health service in the last year and it certainly hasn't cost £4,000 but then other people will no doubt have cost a lot more.

Then again neither of us has been pregnant this last 12 months or taken our offspring to the docs lots of times with coughs and colds.

I feel it's a misconception that just because you're older you're going to require loads of medical treatment over and above what younger people may need.

At least Patf's answer has blown away the surmise on some people's part that we retirees are any more a drain on the French health service budget than anyone else who lives here.

[WJT]

Benjamin, what you say is true about pregnancies and offspring of younger people etc.. But statistically, for example an insurance company will provide much lower rates the younger you are because in general the older you get the more of a risk and more costly heathcare wise you become.

Of course there are many that will die (boy, this is morbid) without incurring many claims or costs in older age but it isn't the norm. Not to mention young families in general are contributing substantially more economically and tax wise than a retiree is to the system. I would think that if a health service (or country) could choose,  it would be young people to care for not old retired folk.

[Benjamin]

I agree with you WJT, as if I didn't we could bat this backwards and forwards forever and a day.

The real point that I wanted to make (and chose a bit of poetic licence to try to get it through to people [6]) is that, since HMG does contribute to our health costs here, we retirees are not the drain on the French budget that some people seem to think.

Whatever else happens though if you've come late to France as most of us have then over our remaining lifetime we'll cost less than a younger person. If, as most people seem to say, the French health service is costing more to maintain than it takes in in revenues then we oldies will not be costing as much as younger people in total.

[LanguedocGal]

I agree with WJT’s first post above.

2000K averages out -in my mind - only in the Merlin the Magician school of accountancy (They're having a laff up there in Newcastle?[:D]). If the trend for retired (not just Brits) moving to France continues, then the French Health Ministry is going to need to employ Merlin to make the books balance.  The 2000K is thus for the non top up element of the costs. Frankly, it’s a pittance and the French State is going to have to renegotiate if the country continues to attract large numbers of retired immigrants. Their health costings are currently a disaster in any case.

In terms of averaging out, I was thinking in terms of  a minimum of 12/15K per person per annum.  At the rate of 2000K, it’s clearly advantageous for all EU govts to encourage their retired population to emigrate to another EU country. (Is LF and similar Magazines govt financed[6]). All this sounds horrible no doubt (it's not meant to, honest.) but we are talking figures here and the French retired don't appear to move to other EU countries in sufficient numbers to even things out.  

On the positive side, France could always transform itself into the retirement home for the EU and be funded accordingly. ''Always look on the bright side of life''[Www]