Statistique ethnique

[12Monkeys]

I don't think that 'ethnicity' is only about the colour of a persons skin anyway. Why doesn't everyone fill in the form and just lie, so we end up with either 100% 'coloured' in which case we ALL get deported or we end up with 100% 'white' and any conceived problem with skin colour is solved. job done. The 2001 census forms in the UK contained a whole raft of diffferent boxes to tick for 'ethnicity' and the results of that have done nothing to help those groups that are descriminated against. But then what do I know?

regards

[Ron Avery]

[Www][quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="woolybanana"]There is only one test that is relevant and that is one of fairness.[/quote]Quite, Woolyb, although I guess one might misinterpret the word "fairness"!

I have signed the petition, Missy.  I thought we had moved beyond ethnicity questions in the modern world.  Whatever next?[:@]

[/quote]

But how do you know if you are being fair and even handed to all colours and creeds, ie not discriminating against one or the other, if you don't know the colours and creeds that you are dealing with?  Surely the issue here is what they do with the information.

How do organisations in the UK report that x % of the work force is from an ethnic minority and only y% of those are in senior positions.  Quite simple, when you apply for a job you fill in an ethnic backgrounfd form.  Now whether this all leads to positive discrimination and balancing of the ethnic books which in my experience promoted a lot of people to jobs beyond their capabilities which was not only bad for their companies, it did not do the people concerned any good either in respect of their mental health and confidence but that is a whole different debate. It may be a positive move in France, but given Sarkozy's chats with Le Pen I somehow think not.[Www]

[woolybanana]

Ron, I hate to agree with you, but you rightly highlight the sheer complexity of this kind of social engineering. I am afraid it can only ever be rough and ready.

[5-element]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]. It may be a positive move in France, but given Sarkozy's chats with Le Pen I somehow think not.[Www][/quote]

 

You hit the nail right on the head Ron.

[Gluestick]

Agree in substance; however the statement says:" The ministry for national identity institutes a measure to distinguish  individuals according to the color of their skin, their religion and their origin: etc."

That's pure discrimination and has absolutely squat to do with ethnic proportions.

For example, I was quite amazed in Barbados when I did a Rotary visit to a local club, to meet and listen to white members, born and bred in Barbados speaking just like all other Bajans!

Of course as a Brit I wore a jacket and collar and tie! It was 95 degress and nearly 100% relative humidity! Whilst all the local club members sported Bermuda shorts and Hawaian shirts! 

So if a guy or woman stated they were "Bajan" you would probably instantly think they were black. Not necessarily so!

 

[woolybanana]

So in the summer I could be a different grouping from the winter then?

[Gluestick]

Just shows what a total crock it is, curved yellow one!

[:)]

[Missy]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

....So if a guy or woman stated they were "Bajan" you would probably instantly think they were black. Not necessarily so!   [/quote]

 

Same prob in Zim! I know many that are Zimbabweans and state so. Which to most will mean that they're black. But they are not black they are white, born and bred there. Some families have been for at least 5 + generations. 

Mr Mugababoon thinks they are his enemies! All of them had the welfare of that country at heart and feeding its population...

 

Sorry [:$] digressing a bit here.....

[woolybanana]

You are right Missy, very few people understand the 'white tribes of Africa'

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Now whether this all leads to positive discrimination and balancing of the ethnic books which in my experience promoted a lot of people to jobs beyond their capabilities which was not only bad for their companies[/quote]

The problem I have with this statement is that it is more often than not uttered by white men who are, in fact, the main beneficiaries of positive discrimination whether in the UK, France, US etc. 

I can perhaps understand white women objecting to ethnic positive discrimination, but find there's no credibility in white men doing so or being smarmy, as they get jobs by virtue of their colour and gender to the detriment of other genders and ethnic groups; only this fact is rarely acknowledged, is it? 

Speaking of the private sector specifically; how many of us have worked in companies where heads of departments, directors etc were incompetent and stupid white men with everyone aware that the place is held together by the secretary/assistant etc? How do these thick and hopeless people get their positions over white women and people of other races if it’s not a case of ingrained social positive discrimination? However, it would appear that the group that benefits most from positive discrimination are so blind to their advantages that they can be self-righteous and spew prac.

When white men pontificate about positive discrimination, I want to throw up. They remind me of the spoilt brat syndrome; a child with 20 toys who cries because the other child has one toy, which he wants to add to his own collection. However, the child is too young to be fully aware of his/her advantages. What are the excuses of white men who object to Positive discrimination?

Positive discrimination (gender or ethnic) should NOT have to exist anywhere, however,in France, it’s essential because the degree of racism and sexism in industry is abominable.

Another serious area of discrimination in employment in France is class and educational discrimination, which affects all races. If any of you have ever worked for a major French company or know much about the French higher education set up, you'd understand.

What they do with the statistics is another matter, though sod all of any use to anyone, is my guess.

I’ll crawl back under my stone on Wossum Porld where the sun shines brighter.[:D]

LG 

 

[powerdesal]

How do these thick and hopeless people get their positions over white women and people of other races if it’s not a case of ingrained social positive discrimination?

In an awful lot of cases you will find its a case of "promoted to a natural level of incompetence"

Think about it, do a really good job, get promoted. Do a really good job in the new (higher) position and get promoted. Reach a job level where you cant / dont do a good job and then stay there. ergo "natural level of incompetence"

[Ron Avery]

Wow some deep seated grievances there LG, what did your therapist say, let it all out?

As I said in my experience..........  I believe that the best person for the job should get it irrespective of colour race or sexual orientation, not because they are black, female, gay and /or one legged. If a white man is the best candidate he should get the job  not a lesser able person just just to satisfy some notional targets.

Your statement about positive discrimination benefitting white men is a crock of shit or what ever you colonials call it.  What happens in the real world is that targets are set to get a balance of ethnicity, and to meet those targets, people from ethnic backgrounds are promoted far beyond their capablities under a policy of positive discrimination, and it is them that suffer through stress etc. Fortunately the private sector does not suffer from so much belly button reflection and by and large gets on with recruiting the best people. 

Also strange but most of the worlds greatest leaders and innovators have been white and men, good job they got the chance to shine wasn't it........[Www].

 

[Will]

I'm sure Gandhi and Mandela will be interested to learn that they are white. Not to mention the many female leaders throughout history including Jeanne d'Arc and Boudicca - though some of those (e.g. Elizabeth 1, Thatcher) pretended to be male

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Wow some deep seated grievances there LG, what did your therapist say, let it all out?

Yes, Ron, and you made it so easy. Ta Much!

As I said in my experience..........  I believe that the best person for the job should get it irrespective of colour race or sexual orientation, not because they are black, female, gay and /or one legged. If a white man is the best candidate he should get the job  not a lesser able person just just to satisfy some notional targets.

A great principle, especially as you obviously think a white man would be best, judging from your words below.

Your statement about positive discrimination benefitting white men is a crock of shit. 

Tell that to high-flying white career women out there and see how many fail to laugh in your face.[:-))]

What happens in the real world is that targets are set to get a balance of ethnicity, and to meet those targets, people from ethnic backgrounds are promoted far beyond their capablities under a policy of positive discrimination, and it is them that suffer through stress etc. 

Please be more specific about this real world. I'd hang around on LF just to learn about it.

Fortunately the private sector does not suffer from so much belly button relection and gets on with recruiting the best people. 

We do NOT live in the same 'real world' clearly, especially where France is concerned.

Also strange but most of the worlds greatest leaders and innovators have been white and men, good job they got the chance to shine wasn't it........[Www].

Depends on your definition of 'greatest' so put away your copy of Mein Kampf before your head explodes.[:-))]

[/quote]

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="powerdesal"]How do these thick and hopeless people get their positions over white women and people of other races if it’s not a case of ingrained social positive discrimination?

In an awful lot of cases you will find its a case of "promoted to a natural level of incompetence"

Think about it, do a really good job, get promoted. Do a really good job in the new (higher) position and get promoted. Reach a job level where you cant / dont do a good job and then stay there. ergo "natural level of incompetence"
[/quote]

I agree with your point PD, and yes, that category does exist indeed too, but that's far from the whole story and we all know it.

[5-element]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Your statement about positive discrimination benefitting white men is a crock of shit or what ever you colonials call it.  

 most of the worlds greatest leaders and innovators have been white and men

[/quote]

WOW. I had no idea.

I take back what I said earlier about Ron hitting the nail right on the head. I obviously can't read so well these days...

[Ron Avery]

How pathetic  LG, anybody reading your ridiculous post above will see that you have a real problem.

[Ron Avery]

But that isn't what positive discrimination is about is it?  Its the recruitment and promotion of ethnic minorities to the exclusion of others to balance the books because too many of the workforce are not from the correct ethnic background, the classic example being the various UK police forces.

[Benjamin]

Yet more unsubstabtiated and opinionated cant from LG. I'd almost forgotten what it sounded like.

 

[LanguedocGal]

Thanks, Ron!

I'm sure that it's clear from your posts that you DON'T have any problems.[Www][:-))]

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Yet more unsubstabtiated and opinionated cant from LG. I'd almost forgotten what it sounded like.
 
[/quote]

Thank you too, Benjamin. I'm assuming you're referring to one of my last rants on here about the Health service and the changes that were going to be/had to be made. Sorry to have deprived you of more as it was all sooo clearly wrong and off course. [;-)]

But wait, on reading some of the posts on here, I can see that you have had ample unsubstantiated and opiniated rants to be going on with in my absence.[Www]

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]But that isn't what positive discrimination is about is it? [/quote]

No, because how could you justify your rants then?  How about calling it the inconvenient truth?[6]

[Tresco]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]But that isn't what positive discrimination is about is it?  Its the recruitment and promotion of ethnic minorities to the exclusion of others to balance the books because too many of the workforce are not from the correct ethnic background, the classic example being the various UK police forces.[/quote]

No, that's more like Positive Action. Positive Discrimination isn't even legal in UK.

[Missy]

Ron ... your comment from earlier on  
>>>Also strange but most of the worlds greatest leaders and innovators have been white and men, good job they got the chance to shine wasn't it...<<<

Did you know that many Nobel Peace Prizes were given to non white :

Dai Lai Lama
Koffe Annan
Nelson Mandela
Martin Luther King
Muhammad Yunnus

and to women :

Ang San Suki
Sherin Ebadi
Wangari Mathaii

To name but a few. For them to have had this big accolade surely they must have been leaders and innovators of a kind   [8-)]

[Gluestick]

Oh dear! [:-))]

You've really done it now, Ron! [blink]

You have riled up the feminists!

You're toast! [Www]