Demonstration for a Referendum

[Ron Avery]

Its being reported by the UK media that there are a few people up a crane in Westminster with a banner demanding a referendum on the EU constitution. 

Given that the  British press are largely anti European, if there was a referendum on the Treaty which IMHO would really be a vote on UK membership of the EU and the Sun, Mail, Telegraph etc readers voted No in their droves, what would happen next? 

Does the population of the UK realise the implications of a No vote?  Do they really believe they would go back to buying butter and lamb from New Zealand and the rest of the EC would treat the UK as if nothing had happened?

[Pierre ZFP]

I would support a vote on the Treaty but at the moment I don't quite know which way I would go.  My instincts and inclinations would be for 'Yes' but I have never read or am likely to read the Treaty in its entirity.  Is there say a 'Treaty for Dummies' website which gives the salint points without having to wade through the whole thing?  I don't want to rely on journalists interpretation of any UK newspaper but I would really like to know what is in it, lazy I know but hey.

[Renaud]

Ron - what would happen if the readers of the Guardian, independant, Express, Star, Mirror also voted No in a referendum poll?

We won't find that out as G Brown thinks that a majority would vote No which is why there will not be a referendum.

To answer the question in your last para, a new deal would be worked out, as when others have left the EU.

[Gluestick]

Considering the, shall we say, fragile state of CAP, Ron's post is wishful thinking, I feel.

A net result of the UK leaving the EU (not that a no vote would create such an inevitability!), would be for the UK to save the horrendous subsidies on CAP and other areas and lower the cost of most people's food bills!

Perhaps the UK could emulate Poland and Russia, et al, of a few years ago and assist CAP to dissassemble its various food mountains at well beneath market price!

Personally, I can't ever recall seeing French Lamb in UK supermarkets: it's either English (some Welsh mountain lamb) and new Zealand anyway!

In fact, any such referendum would be pretty valueless, since a majority would not bother to research the subject matter, significantly; and would vote, as already stated, according to the total bias of regurgitated media "Facts"!

For me, the EU now stands for two things: totally corrupt political practice and unelected commissioners making wide ranging and powerful decisions with no checks and balances, no accountability: and power-mad politicians determined to build on a distorted vision of reality where "Europe" extends into the Middle East and beyond!

With France and Germany already starting to make considerable noises of dissent, the out-of-control political megalith that the EU has become, is I believe doomed to create its own destruction.

That said, Brown is simply following his predecessors in rushing to sign treaties which have not been carefully read and considered and their ramifications thought through.

What's new?

 

[Ron Avery]

My post expresses no opinions whatsoever save that I believe that if there were to be a referendum it would be a No.

To answer a couple of points above.  Express readers vote Yes[:-))], Where have you been for the last eight years or so?  The Express when its not on Diana has been trying to out do The Mail with the numbers of immigrants that arrived yesterday from the EU's new member states[:)]. 

The question is what would those campaigning for a No vote expect to happen after a No vote?.  A Yes vote means nothing changes as the Treaty has already been signed.

When others  left?  You mean Denmark?  That was years ago when there were eight was it members? Long before a lot of the current members joined the EU.  Do you really believe it would be easy to opt out of Europe and a new deal worked out solely for the UK[blink] 

Are the real implications of the UK leaving the EC that it becomes more isolated politically and economically and is forced to become beholden to the USA, or is this what the US owned UK press want?  How would it affect us living here?

[Gluestick]

Perhaps the key issue here is thinking that whatever a referendum indicated, our wonderful politicians would take a blind bit of notice!

This a contentious matter for such as Nigel Farage, but most voters don't actually have much of a clue what it is all about!

Nor are they interested.

Which is precisely why politicians can completely ignore what the electorate actually think.

Iraq, perhaps is an excellent example...........................

 

[Will]

Don't forget that almost the same document - though then it was called a constitution rather than a treaty - was rejected in public votes by France and the Netherlands a couple of years ago.

As a result, planned referenda were put on hold in United Kingdom, Ireland, Denmark, Portugal, Sweden and Poland. Germany was on the point of voting in parliament, but postponed the decision. The Czech republic did not want a change, expressing itself satisfied with the existing structure, and saying a 'bad treaty would be worse than no treaty at all'.

The only countries where the public voted in favour were Luxembourg and Spain, though the turnout in the latter vote was notably low.

The other member states passed the new EU constitution in parliamentary votes, though this was legally contested in Slovakia.

Because of the public reaction in France and the Netherlands the position was unsustainable so it had to be re-drafted as a 'treaty' that would get over the constitutional requirements for referenda in some member states.

(source - various BBC web pages)

 

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

When others  left?  You mean Denmark?  That was years ago when there were eight was it members? Long before a lot of the current members joined the EU.  Do you really believe it would be easy to opt out of Europe and a new deal worked out solely for the UK[blink] 

[/quote]

 

To the best of my recollection the only state to have left the EU is Greenland, which is a dependency of Denmark. Denmark remains a member of the EU - it has not joined the Euro.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Perhaps the key issue here is thinking that whatever a referendum indicated, our wonderful politicians would take a blind bit of notice!

Iraq, perhaps is an excellent example...........................

[/quote]  No the key issue is quite simple.  If these protestors were to get their way and have a referendum which would cost £ millions to carry out excluding propoganda costs etc and the result was a No, what do they want to happen then? 

Nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq......

[nomoss]

Gluestick wrote

Personally, I can't ever recall seeing French Lamb in UK supermarkets: it's either English (some Welsh mountain lamb) and new Zealand anyway!

You have probably seen similar lamb in UK to that in French supermarkets, though.

A neighbour in Cornwall sent all his lambs, alive, to France. He said that after spending a week or so there they became French by the time they were slaughtered. They obviously came into the country with the intention of residing.

 

[Gluestick]

Well, Ron.

NuLab did promise a referendum.

But then again in their election manifesto they also promised PR.

Until, of course, they were elected with a landslide majority, that is.......................

 

[Www]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="nomoss"]Gluestick wrote

Personally, I can't ever recall seeing French Lamb in UK supermarkets: it's either English (some Welsh mountain lamb) and new Zealand anyway!

You have probably seen similar lamb in UK to that in French supermarkets, though.

A neighbour in Cornwall sent all his lambs, alive, to France. He said that after spending a week or so there they became French by the time they were slaughtered. They obviously came into the country with the intention of residing.

 

[/quote]

And as Aberdeen Angus and Hereford sperm is exported, frozen, all over the World, what is the true origin?

In point of fact, we go for NZ lamb most of the time (excepting when I buy guaranteed young English organic from my master butcher chum of 56 years mateship!), since it is effectively dumped onto pasture and left much to its own devices. 3 million people: 90 million sheep, ish.

Why waste money on vetinary bills?

[:)]

[Ron Avery]

How did you get from the voting habits of Daily Mail and Sun readers to sheep............  Oh yes great linking [:P] 

[BJSLIV]

Forget the lamb.

If the UK pulled out of the EU as the Daily Mail etc seem to want, it  would certainly give everyone living in France using " E " forms something to think about.

 

[Gluestick]

Excepting EFTA predated the EEC and the EEA includes Norway and etc. and they are not members of the EU.

Why should it be different for the UK if it pulled out of the EU?

The UK after all retracted from EMS, after Norman Lamont had cleverly almost bankrupted the Treasury: and the UK is till not a full member of the Euro.

If one considers how very many Renaults, Citroens and Peugots are sold in the UK (for example): and how few British cars are sold in France, the concept of any current member state being totally excluded form every aspect of ALL treaties dating back to 1945 are fairly remote!

And for me, this is the whole problem with the subject of the EEC, the EU and now the renamed constitution: politicians and the media don't actually understand the subject matter themselves and simply concentrate on what is effective scaremongering.

From the time that Heath determined to take the UK into the EEC, few voters have been privy to all of the underlying ramifications: to the point where a senior Tory Lord at the time, warned Heath that selling entry as a sort of trade treaty and concealing the realities of holistic commanility in the future was extremely dangerous! Heath chose to blindside the electorate and ignore these warnings. (I have a copy of this letter on file somewhere, courtesy of the late James Goldsmith's political campaigning).

Quote from the UK Government's Pensions Site:

The Agreement creating the European Economic Area (EEA Agreement) was negotiated between the Community, the then Member States, and 7 member countries of the EFTA and was signed in May 1992. Subsequently, Switzerland decided not to participate following a referendum, and three others joined the EU. The EEA Agreement entered into force on 1 January 1994.

The EEA was maintained because of the wish of the three remaining countries - Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein - to participate in the Internal Market, while not assuming the full responsibilities of EU membership. The Agreement gives them the right to be consulted by the Commission during the formulation of Community legislation, but not the right to a voice in decision-making, which is reserved exclusively for Member States. All new Community legislation in areas covered by the EEA is integrated into the Agreement through an EEA Joint Committee decision and subsequently becomes part of the national legislation of the EEA EFTA States. Through the double impact of the participation in the decision shaping and the high level of integration of Community acquis into their national legislation, the EEA EFTA States are, of all the countries associated with the Union, technically the most closely linked to the EU. Politically, however, the fact that EU membership is not on the current agenda for any of the EEA EFTA countries distinguishes them from other close neighbours, who have EU membership as a declared objective.

The EEA Agreement is concerned principally with the four fundamental pillars of the Internal Market, “the four freedoms", i.e. freedom of movement of goods (excluding agriculture and fisheries, which are included in the Agreement only to a very limited extent), persons, services and capital. Horizontal provisions relevant to these four freedoms in the areas of social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics complete the extended internal market. It is in these areas that the EEA- EFTA States take over Community legislation.

[Deimos]

To me it seems a classic example of the low regard

politicians have for the people they represent.

It is the politicians who want this to go through –

irrespective of what the electorate might think.  I have no idea what the electorate think.  Labour promised a referendum.  That promise proved embarrassing,

particularly after it was seen how easily it can get rejected (as per e.g.

France).  So these EU politicians call

it something else and none of those who are actually affected and have either

expressed their opinions (e.g. French) 

get to have any say as they were promised.

Certainly it seems quite a few independent UK government

committees have sated that it is “principally the same document” so I can only

increase one’s cynicism of politicians when they decide they are going to just

“railroad” it through and in.

I am gradually coming to the opinion that the behaviour of

politicians these days is going to bring about a radical change to the western

system of government.  When, how quickly

and what will result I have no idea but it does seem that western politicians

are not serving their electorates well and not really representing anybody.

I actually find living in France quite interesting in that

one can watch what is happening in the UK with somewhat less of an emotional

reaction.  Were I stopped for speeding

(in France) then I would not be arrested under the anti-terrorism laws and held

for ages without trial and have my DNA taken and sold to 3^rd parties

– so I can reflect of the UK laws and politics without feeling personally threatened

or affected.

Ian

[Gluestick]

Wholeheartedly agree, Ian.

I am in sympathy with the overall concept of a European Union; but not the actuality, since it has been highjacked by mainly failed politicians for their own benefit.

There is somewhere on the web, a very interesting video recorded by Nigel Farage (UKIP) concerning many of the scams and corruptions being perpetrated by MEPs and Commissars (OOps! Freudian slip!), Commissioners.

I'm not a supporter of UKIP, or indeed, any other political party, however this is of considerable interest and of far more value than most of the lightweight, surface gloss-overs rendered by the broadcast and printed media and, of course, the mainstream politicians!

I'll see if I can find it.