Gluestick Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 OK; a new thread which is pretty much guaranteed to please dear old Logan as I'm totally sure the responses will be, shall we say, juxta-opposed!I'll kick off.The 785 MEPs will be allowed from now on to claim >£ 38,400 on top of their already bloated pay and expenses, but, wait for this, they no longer have to submit any reciepts!Since the EU accounts have lacked audit for more years than most of 'em can count (No one is prepared to sign them off), it is no wonder that these insane bureaucrats have been alleged to have beeen fiddling up to £100 million per year in expenses claims.Nice work if you can get it.Apparently, according to a survey carried out by the Spelling Society, 1,000 people interviewed, were not at all confident in filling out job application forms etc without recourse to a dictionary or a WP Spell Checker.A London free paper (Not the Metro, Dick![:D]) carried out its own survey of commuters and found that only one person in 30 could answer 100% of the fairly simple spelling questions correctly. The Test: No Cheating! Answer it honestly first, before checking the answers (separate post).Which of these is incorrect?1. EMBARRASSED2. LIASON3. MILLENIUM4. DEFINITELY5. ACCOMODATION6. ACCIDENTALLY7. SEPERATE8. ATTEMPTED9. APPEARED10. FRIEND Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 For answers, see the Other Topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Of course what the Metro has done is to choose the words which most people have trouble spelling, often because they are 'exceptions to rules'. So most people will have trouble spelling at least one of them. At the edges, spelling is difficult, especially with unfamiliar words.But, as we have recently been so forcefully told on this forum, spelling and punctuation don't matter, so why would we be bothered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 As a dyslexic not only can I suddenly not spell a word I knew yesterday but sometimes I read words wrongly.Yesterday, the chap next to me on the tube was reading the Telegraph. There was an article headlined (I thought) 'Eric Springstein still the boss' complete with rockstar photo. The guy turned the page before I could check and I spent the rest of the journey wondering if Bruce had an evil twin Eric (or visa versa) - which one was the boss?Later I found a copy and the headline is 'Epic Springstein still the boss' how boring is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 I'm not dyslexic, and I do that all the time...But there is a big difference between genuine dyslexia and not making the effort.The Metro article is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 A dear friend of mine back in the early 70s was intensely dsylexic: he had the sense [:)] to marry a very charming and bright teacher, who coached him so sucessfully, that having originally left school at 14, became a surveyor and valuer and later a property developer and after that a very successful business man making many millions.Both of his children were extremely dyslexic:, however since they had had the fortune to be born to a very wealthy Dad, they had the benefit of remedial and intensive teaching, privately. When the boy was young, as most dysxelics, he was unable to march without swing both arms at the same time and fell over his feet when trying to kick a football.He finished up being capped for Hampshire under 14 rugby team.He later on, finished up running a computer company as CEO in Singapore.His sister, a hugely creative and artistic lass, finished up as a producer for BBC.As a co-opted County Council Secondary School Governor, I had a blazing row with the County LEA, who informed me, after cancelling significant remedial funding, that "Dyslexia is not a recognised condition which affects educational progress or achievement!"[:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 [quote user="Dick Smith"]I'm not dyslexic, and I do that all the time...But there is a big difference between genuine dyslexia and not making the effort.The Metro article is here.[/quote]Weren't the Metro in this instance, Guv: as I stated, Dick: it's called "The London Paper" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Well that's bizarre! I thought you meant 'Oh no, not the Metro' in an ironic way, but if you follow the link you will see that they are running the story.I can't find it on your link at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegwini Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Thanks, Dick & Gluey & spot onI looked at the link. It is interesting that someone wrote in to complain that the newspaper's reporters make many spelling mistakes - I am not at all surprised to have read that. It's just the way things are these days.RegardsTegwini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Not just that, but basic errors of, for example, number. I read the website of our local free paper (yes, you get what you pay for) and it is riddled with errors that would get marks penalised on a GCSE exam paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 [quote user="Dick Smith"]Well that's bizarre! I thought you meant 'Oh no, not the Metro' in an ironic way, but if you follow the link you will see that they are running the story.I can't find it on your link at all.[/quote]Page 6, Friday 23rd May, Dick. I have the page of the hardcopy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegwini Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Crumbs, NOT in leafy Surrey!We are more used to that here in Wilts- or Oiks shire, lots of Ohh Ahhs here. Perhaps even me.Regardstegwini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 I often say to my French friends that language is only a simple device for communication. Self evident of course but we all know that the French believe language is much more than that. I don't think that it's necessary to be fluent or word perfect. Communication is much more than that. So it is with spelling. Of course it's very desirable to have the ability to do both well. Perfection in these things is a positive asset but most of us fall short because we are human. I believe that communication and dialogue matter more. In a one to one situation the character and personality of the other shine through the poor pronuncation or understanding of words. So also in the written word the spelling matters less than the essence and purpose of the prose. Poor spelling is difficult to read but the aspirations of the writer often rise above that.Man has invented many methods of communicating. Spelling words correctly is just one of many tools. Like all tools there is usually many alternatives in the box to get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 25, 2008 Author Share Posted May 25, 2008 Quite some few years ago, I was told - by our senior secretary, no less - that "Punctuation makes business letters look messy!"Which I believe was a convenient excuse for the underlying reality: "I can't punctuate, so it's far easier for me to leave it out!"Unfortunately, incorrect, or lack of, punctuation creates ambiguity: as do bad grammer and poor English or any other language, construction.Business letters can be taken as often leading towards the setting out of contractual conditions.Yes: communication of concepts, philosophies and ideas are very important; much more powerful, though, when expressed cogently, carefully and with grammatical precision.Sorry to be pedantic, Logan, but one can only have one alternative, not several.One can, of course, enjoy several options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 [quote user="Gluestick"]Yes: communication of concepts, philosophies and ideas are very important; much more powerful, though, when expressed cogently, carefully and with grammatical precision.[/quote]Of course that is true but in the real world in which most of us inhabit does that really matter so much? The rarefied corridors of the corporate world have surely no relevance in our simple need to communicate with each other. Perhaps is comes down to ambition and the desire to impress each other. Like most other things as time passes you find something better to do with your time. A less than perfect world Gluey is so much more comfortable to live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Logan, I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate here or what? Because, in general, you express yourself well (even though I do have occasion sometimes to argue with what you are saying!) and as a result, I do tend to read your posts. Whereas posts without capital letters, very little punctuation, poor spelling etc, I often ignore because they are just such an effort to read.Sorry, but grammar, good spelling, and good writing do matter for just that reason. People are encouraged to read things which are easily understood, and presentation does make a difference. Yes, everybody makes mistakes (probably even Dick Smith spells things wrongly, or punctuates incorrectly sometimes[:)]) and of course nobody is perfect. But reading something should be easy, not an effort. Maybe it's not important if I can't spell definitely because when I write definately, at least everybody knows what I mean - but if that's OK, then where does it end? Back in the days when I ran a large department, there were times when I had to recruit new staff. Rightly or wrongly, when faced with a pile of applications which I had to reduce to a shortlist for interview, I would have automatically discarded those which were poorly written (although, I guess because it's my own bugbear, I might have forgiven the odd spelling mistake - possibly because I didn't know it was a mistake) because it's one indicator as to how much care the individual takes with their work. I can't have been alone and I'm sure there are still a few potential employers out there who have these same - possibly outdated - standards.How many men and women spend pots of money and many hours on their personal appearance these days, and yet seem to think that the things they write are acceptable if sloppily written and poorly spelt? Seems like a dual standard to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegwini Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Woman, without her, man is nothing. Woman without her man, is nothing. I expect most will know this old favourite showing the need for correct punctuation, and how meaning can be either changed or very ambiguous depending on punctuation.Tegwini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 "time flies you cant they go too quickly" was the one my old English teacher used to give to us to punctuate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegwini Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 I did not make my last post bigger - honest gov, it did it on its own! cut & paste was wot dun it!I really must learn to understand stuff like this. Tegwini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 25, 2008 Author Share Posted May 25, 2008 One of the hardest things to achieve is, I believe, writing Process and Product information manuals.Let's face it, we'll all suffered from struggling to comprehend precisely what the author means when reading IT software and hardware User Manuals!Enjoying the ability to write free-flowing, cogent and easily understood manuals and data sheets is a lost art, these days.Technical authors and editors seem all tarred with the same brush: either their attempts at descriptive language are clumsy and fail to communicate what ought to be intended: or their work drips with a succession of arcane acronyms and buzzwords.A few years back, at the beginning of the start of the Word processing revolution, part of the mighty Pru in New York were forced to serve default writs on US Lines, the large ship operators, as two marine mortgages were delinquent.US lines were then forced into (probably) Chapter 11 bankruptcy due to these debts.Now the writs had been typed by the prototypical girly driving a WP system and were as normal taken by a baliff and "Nailed to the masts" and the ships siezed as the Pru wished to exercise their lien over them.Unfotunately the girly had placed the decimal point in the wrong place and instead of each writ being for £50,000,000 or so, they were for £5,000,000!Her boss hadn't bothered to check her work either. Impressive stuff!US Lines ran to Court and countered and demanded that the bankruptcy orders be lifted as they were not then technically insolvent as they in fact had the odd $10,000,000.As soon as people think care and detailed attention to meanings are no longer important and standards dropping is unimportant, this sort of scenario is what happens.I spent a hugely annoying and increasing amount of my putative fee earning time, trying to advise government departments, mainly HMRC that they have got it wrong: again! Mainly because their staff cannot read and cannot count.Just this week, one client received a demand for hundreds of pounds of income tax, despite receiving a refund of tax overpaid in March for £1256.00: and another amended Statement of Account ( which was frankly, gobbledegook! The numbers failed to actually add up.), this week with a wholly different calculation.After I had checked things through, the Revenue had completely failed to read the Tax Return correctly and had missed a Loss Claim, which taken into account, meant the first rebate was in fact correct.As we had filed it last year................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 [quote user="Gluestick"] The Test: No Cheating! Answer it honestly first, before checking the answers (separate post).Which of these is incorrect?1. EMBARRASSED2. LIASON3. MILLENIUM4. DEFINITELY5. ACCOMODATION6. ACCIDENTALLY7. SEPERATE8. ATTEMPTED9. APPEARED10. FRIEND [/quote]Serious question from one with both grammatical and spelling difficulties: should the above have read "which of these are incorrect"?As it said "is incorrect" I only tried to find one and found that hard enough and was shocked to see in the answers that half were incorrect.Or was it a piége moron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannon Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 I don't think it matters that much how good (or bad) your spelling is as long as it is understood. Being constrained by common agreement on how words are spelt prevents a language from evolving and developing its character to fit the age we live in.I was fortunate enough to have no trouble at school with any form of English language education and it puzzles me as much now as it did then at to why it was so important. Now maths, I was and still am terrible at it. I cannot add or subtract for toffee and have often wondered if it has it's owen version of dyslexia. I did hear by the way that there were only three types of people in this world - those that could add up, and those that could not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Adding's not too bad but I am not so confident with subtracting. As a young woman, I used to go out on a Saturday night with my then father-in-law to play darts.It never ceased to amaze me how quickly they could subtract the scores from 301 and, when you needed 3 darts to finish off, some old codger could always say which 3 numbers you needed. Marvellous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 [quote user="Bannon"]I cannot add or subtract for toffee and have often wondered if it has it's owen version of dyslexia. [/quote]Calculexia, is what I believe it is called, Bannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted May 25, 2008 Author Share Posted May 25, 2008 [quote]I don't think it matters that much how good (or bad) your spelling is as long as it is understood. Being constrained by common agreement on how words are spelt prevents a language from evolving and developing its character to fit the age we live in.[/quote]So perhaps, Bannon, you'd be an advocate for teachers using text language rather than English?The core problem then, is that no one much older than 25 would understand what the hell everyone under 25 was talking or writing about!Obviously since tempus has well and truly fugeted in my case, I already fail to comprehend precisely what many younger people are prattling about, already!As an excellent example of the sort of conversation I regularly overhear day-to-day............."So I'm like Wheaugh! And he's like earughrstygh!"Apparently, rather like animals, Neandethal man and earlier, communicated using a series of grunts. Say some scientists.Perhaps Homo Sapien is regressing and Darwin forget to include species-regression in his hypothesis.BTW: It is far simpler to learn a new language, such as French, for example, if one knows firstly, something about the rules of Grammar: even better if one knows what language components are and do.If one doesn't even understand the Grammar of one's mother tongue, then it makes the process a whole lot harder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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