The Lisbon Treaty.

[Logan]

The Irish people have now soundly rejected The Lisbon Treaty which is a European constitution by another name. The French and Dutch also rejected the same idea and principal. I really do wonder why the European Commission do not understand the word NO. The EU in my view completely ignores the opinions of all of us the voters. After the result was announced Jose Manuel Barroso said in a press conference that The Lisbon Treaty should continue to be retified by all 27 member states regardless of the Irish vote.

In my view the European Union is slowly undermining all our democratic freedoms with the conivance of some member state governments. France and Germany seem to have a private agenda to create an EU super state to rival the power of the USA and now China.

Now Mr Sarkozy who will soon have the European Presidency has endorsed Barroso's view that this retched treaty must continue to be ratified by all member states forcing Ireland into the cold. This despite public opinion in almost all member states being against it.

ttp://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/andreas-whittam-smith/andreas-whittam-smith-irish-voters-have-stated-the-truth-for-all-

[Gluestick]

One would like to think that some level of democracy flowed through this process; however, it seems that even though a number of states have refused, by referenda, to allow their parliaments to ratify the treaty, it will happen anyway!

Still, what else can one expect from a power mad nest of ideaologues- the EU Commissioners - not one of whom has gained their post by election and is thus completely unaccountable to the electors, citizens and taxpayers of their own state!

It is also very well bearing in mind, that the Lison Treaty is just the abortive EU Constitution flying false colours.

Quote:

After that, the Treaty will have to be ratified by the member States in accordance with their respective constitutions. If all the ratifications are completed in time, the Treaty will enter into force on January 1st 2009. Failing that, it will enter into force on the first day of the month following the last ratification (Article 48 EU Treaty). Some provisions in the Treaty enter into effect later. For instance, the new rules on the composition of the Commission and the new definition of the qualified majority in the Council enter into force in 2014.

November 25, 2007 in Reform - Lisbon Treaty | Permalink

Un-Quote

http://eulaw.typepad.com/eulawblog/2007/11/reformlisbon-tr.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon#cite_note-18

[Logan]

Some interesting links there Gluey. I realise this subject does not interest or excite most folks. That is in my view part of the problem. We in Europe are sleepwalking towards being controlled politically and socially by a cabal of unelected elites. It's difficult to find any UK politician who will support in public the exclusion of Ireland, yet that's exactly what is now being proposed. People feel helpless in a process which seems remote and beyond their democratic means of influence. It's dangerous for democracies and dangerous for our freedom and liberty. The European public need to wake up and realise everything they hold dear is being slowly eroded. Then we need to do something positive about it.

[Gluestick]

[quote] I realise this subject does not interest or excite most folks.[/quote]

I totally agree, Logan.

Your second sentence is completely accurate and a frightening reality to me!

That's why I was heartened at David Davis's stand on the debate last week: his Telegraph article on Friday makes shocking reading, when one realises just how insidious the erosion of Civil Liberties has become: and just what the idiots in NuLab have managed to surreptitiously achieve since 1997.

To me, the British public still seem mired in the false view presented by Edward Heath, way back in the 70s and still seem to actually believe that the EU is some sort of cosy trading realtionship!

Just today we hear that our European masters concede the waste of food from misshapes is not a good idea and with certain exceptions (peaches e.g.) mishshapen fruits and veg can now be sold. This is critically important for organic farmers and the consumer's pocket.

With Turkey agitating for entry, this would add circa 90 million people  (By the time, they "Ran In"), from an extremely backwards state suffering horrendous financial and economic problems to a melting pot which already includes far too many economic and social basket cases.

The idiots in Strasburg and Brussels must be stark, raging mad!

 

[Logan]

The Czech Republic seem now unlikely to ratify the treaty despite Sarkozy's applying some pressures today. Once more the smaller European states have to take the lead. The UK seems to be sitting on their hands, afraid of upsetting the French. The treaty has to have a final ratification vote in the House of Lords this week. Their Lordships have the power to force the issue for the UK to take the lead for once. Unfortunately the Lib. Dem. peers are likely to support the government line and vote for ratification despite the Irish vote.

[Gluestick]

Yet Nick Clegg is ostensibly against it?

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Logan"]

The Czech Republic seem now unlikely to ratify the treaty despite Sarkozy's applying some pressures today. Once more the smaller European states have to take the lead. The UK seems to be sitting on their hands, afraid of upsetting the French. The treaty has to have a final ratification vote in the House of Lords this week. Their Lordships have the power to force the issue for the UK to take the lead for once. Unfortunately the Lib. Dem. peers are likely to support the government line and vote for ratification despite the Irish vote.

[/quote]

I believe it is possible for the Govt to invoke the "Parliament" act if the Lords reject ratification. Any confirmation on that?

[Quarmby]

Here's a funny thing. For as long as I can remember British foreign policy has been dictated from Washington. We host American military bases, we join wars at Washington's behest, we pull out of them if Washington disapproves - as it did of Suez - and, recently, a British Foreign Secretary was dismissed because he was insufficiently hawkish about Iran. Yet every move by the European Community - at every level of which Britain is democratically represented - is greeted with howls of rage by the Little Englanders who contribute to this forum. I know very little about the Lisbon treaty, but I do know that Rupert Murdoch opposes it, and that's good enough reason for me to support it.

[Gluestick]

Strange: since Sarkozy is presently performing his sycophantic grovelling act towards Dubya.

 

[Gluestick]

Quite correct Steve.

They can employ the Parliament Act to steamroller through just about any legislation, if the Lords reject it enough times.

What does interest me is that Ireland cannot pass legislation which amends their rights and powers of sovereignty, unless they have a referendum: Italy isn't allowed to have one, without firstly amending its laws!

 

[Logan]

Before the Irish vote Brown had intimated that he would invoke the Parliment Act if the Lords refused to ratify the treaty. Remember this is a Prime Minister who's party was elected at the last election on a promise of a referendum for the British people on this subject. Unfortunately the pro-treaty peers seem to have a majority in the Lords if the Lib Dems vote with Labour as expected. So it's likely the Treaty of Lisbon will be ratified in UK this week.

Brown can then go to the EU summit all smiling to the cabal and say he's done his bit. The British people meanwhile have been robbed of their promised democratic rights.

A recent poll revealed 53% of Brits would reject the treaty. In France 56% are against it. Yet still the so called leaders of nations press on regardless.

[Gluestick]

Reading between the lines, Logan, I have a sneaking feeling that this insanity may well prove the "Bridge too Far" for the Euroland fantasists.

As you say, most citizens are against the constitution (euphimistically described as "A Treaty"!), in far too many member states.

Sarkozy's latest idea for a Mediteranean Union excluding Germany - which so angered Angela Merkel - is to me, typical of a failed politician grabbing at illusory straws, rather as Galitieri did in Argentina.

Cracks are appearing and perhaps the current problem with fuel and food commodity prices generally and their effect on cost of living will finally make EU citizens realise the grandiose ideas and ideologies are fine for Ivory Tower dwellers but, to employ a vulgar American business expression, "Don't play in Peoria!"

 

[trees 2]

[quote user="Logan"]

Before the Irish vote Brown had intimated that he would invoke the Parliment Act if the Lords refused to ratify the treaty. Remember this is a Prime Minister who's party was elected at the last election on a promise of a referendum for the British people on this subject.

[/quote]

How can anyone continue to trust that man? I know politician is another word for liar, but his deceit knows no bounds.

[Logan]

We all seem of the same mind on this thread. That must be a first for TF!

I believe that the politics of the EU are fundamentally based on undemocratic principals. The design and function of the EU Commission often reminds me of the Catholic Church. A head of state elected by a small cabal of self servers rejoicing in the title of Cardinal. Dictats are sent down from on high and the people have only one function. That of keeping the faith in the teeth of all evidence to the contrary. We are supposed to suspend our experience and life knowledge without complaint or descent. Safe in the knowledge that our Fathers know best and in the end the grand plan will raise human life to a higher form of existence. In fact I read somewhere that the EU was actually originally supposed to be just that. A catholic capitalists club. 

I do hope Gluesticks is right and this debacle over an EU Constitution marks a turning point. I have grave doubts. I think the usual fudge and mudge will ensue from this coming summit. I expect they will force another vote in Ireland with a media blitz offering cherries to vote YES.

I believe for the EU to survive Europe needs a permanent end to the creation process of a super state. Then a resurgence of sovereign nations without restrictive EU laws, trading in a tariff free zone. That was the original concept of the EU until the agenda was highjacked by the current generation of federalist politicians. They have never had the courage to ask the people their opinion. On the few occasions they did they received an answer they didn't want. A resounding NO. Their new tactic is to simply ignore the voters. I say they do so at their eventual peril.  

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I don't know much about this, nor European politics, but I thought all Euro countries had to agree to go with it. To my knowledge 3 countries have said up yours, so that should put a stop to it. It's a waste of time and money to put the vote to other countries, and I'm surprised it's gone to 3 countries to vote. If the first country said no, that means it's impossible for it to go through.

[Eos]

Ireland cannot introduce legislation, such as the Lisbon Treaty, without a referendum, as enshrined in the constitution.

The Lisbon Treaty does indeed state that if it's not ratified by all member states, it then becomes a non runner.

 

However, the Irish voted "no" for a myriad of reasons, many nothing to do with the treaty at all. Internal politics played their part as did the current and future economic situation in the country. The fact that this has now become clear to the government, who I think gambled on a nation with a good relationship with Europe and a good history of voting in European legislation, means that a second referendum has not been ruled out.

 

 

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="LyndaandRichard"]I don't know much about this, nor European politics, but I thought all Euro countries had to agree to go with it. To my knowledge 3 countries have said up yours, so that should put a stop to it. It's a waste of time and money to put the vote to other countries, and I'm surprised it's gone to 3 countries to vote. If the first country said no, that means it's impossible for it to go through.

[/quote]

The first two "no's" were on votes for the constitution, this last was a vote on the "treaty" which was said to be different, but it isn't except in name.

They will probably re-issue it titled "agreement" and run it all again.

[powerdesal]

Have I missed something?   Has Her Majesty approved it or not? (timed at 2220 UAE time)

[Clair]

Parliament approves Bill ratifying EU reform treaty

[Clair]

Court rejects EU treaty block bid

[powerdesal]

Its the status of the Royal Assent that I was particularly interested in. HM can refuse or delay Royal Assent if she feels it is necessary. It was stated to be due today, Thursday. I dont get any immediate UK news.

[Logan]

I am afraid that will not happen. It would create a constitutional crisis and the present HM is not interested in rocking any boats.

The latest news this morning is that the EU summit meeting has broken up without any agreement on what to do about the Treaty. Recriminations abound particulary from Sarkozy who thinks further enlargement is now out of the question. The EU commission still refuse to accept that the Treaty is dead. They want to give the Irish another vote later in the year. Personally I believe that will be digging a bigger hole than they are already in. The fact that the Lisbon Treaty effectively transfers massive powers from elected governments to an unelected cabal of appointed politicians makes the Irish wince.  It should worry us all a great deal.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quarmby"] Yet every move by the European Community - at every level of which Britain is democratically represented - is greeted with howls of rage by the Little Englanders who contribute to this forum. I know very little about the Lisbon treaty, but I do know that Rupert Murdoch opposes it, and that's good enough reason for me to support it.[/quote]

For me, this perspective sums up the whole problem.

I do wonder how many British voters, actually have any detailed knowledge of first and most importantly the history of what became the EU (i.e. from the early post-war days of the European Coal and Steel Community, why it was formed between who and how it subsequently became the EEC; The core objectives of the Treaty of Rome; EFTA; and the various treaties such as Mastricht, leading up to Lisbon).

This morning, I have been scanning the actual final wording of the Lisbon Treaty, which one can download here:

Now the first difficulty, is one needs also to have various other treaties ready to hand, to comprehend the impact of replacement of clauses, objectives and wordings.

The Lisbon Treaty document is 287 pages.

Can we delegate the job of really understanding the full impact of Lisbon to our wonderful politicians and their servile senior civil servants?

My own admittedly cynical, yet empirical view, is perhaps best illustrated by earlier dealings on certain matters of considerable commercial criticality, with what was then the DTI: it was abundently clear, that the senior staff had been tasked on the basis: "This is our extant decision: please create research and documentation which proves our forthcoming decision will be seen as correct!"

Well, it is perhaps very worth while recalling that Thatcher signed off the European Telecommunications Agreement: and when Red Hot Dutch et al (The satellite porn channels) hit British viewers, it was later admitted that Government had signed off on this agreement without fully comprehending its implications!

And Thatcher was a barrister!

When Ted Heath was about to sign Britain's entry terms to the then EEC, a senior Tory Lord wrote to him, warning that to allow the British elector to continue believing the myth that the EEC was "...................................only about a free trade area, was very dangerous and would come back to haunt government!"

Heath replied that it was of no importance!

I have a copy of this seminal letter somewhere in my files.

For someone to say that they know very little about the Lisbon Treaty but to then switch to the perjurative use of the term "Little Englanders" - whatever that means in reality, apart from representing a typical politician's sound bite - and to then advocate following a course of decision, based mainly upon dislike of a public figure's preference, to me, apart from demonstrating a worrying naivity, smacks soundly of the dictum, "Don't confuse me with facts! I already have an opinion, thank you!"

Can the voter rely upon the media? Not really, since all they receive is the condensed "Wisdom" of a polarised and thus biased view.

 

[Judith]

I still find it strange that since the EU foreign ministers don't like Eire's "no" they have sent the Irish Foreign Minister back to "try again.  It's as though they think if they ask the question enough times, the answer might change!!!  Weird. (And yes, I know the Danish did change their minds, but I don't quite see that behaviour in the Irish psyche.)

[Gluestick]

Perhaps the EU  needs asking that identical question Call Me Dave posed to Godron during PM's Questions on Wednesday,

"What part of "No!" is it you don't understand?

Interesting that the TV news just now states that as a threat, if the Constitution, (ooops! Freudian slip,) Treaty is not ratified, then any further expansion of the EU is off.

Well heavens to Betsy! Some sense at last!

The EU Commissars must have all been estate agents in a previous incarnation!

When a desirable residential area possesses caché, EA's  and Spec Builders love to extend it: we have a tiny original area near us in Essex, which the EA's and builder seem to want to go right up to Huddersfield! We have, according to the ad blurbs, XX Garden Village; XX Country Living; and so on ad naseum.

Someone possessed of sanity has at some time to make these gibbering powermad idiots in Strasburg and Brussels realise the concept of a united Europe aint like the Eurovision Song Contest!

"Europe" cannot be wishfully extended into Iraq!