UK Identity Cards

[Fil]

Hi,

as the posessor of a Carte de Sejour (totally free) a disturbing thought has just occurred to me.  Having watched (smugly as I thought I would not require one) the information on UK tv about the proposed UK identity card, it suddenly dawned on me that as we expats are mostly still UK citizens, are WE too going to be made to have them?  And will we have to pay the highest price, as we are non uk tax payers?  Are they hot on our trails and after our money?

Anyone know anything about this?

Anyone else getting worried?

Are we all going to hae to escape this with french nationality?

Fil

[paw862]

Why worry? By the time this government gets its act together, the computers fail and they have spent Billions, it will all be over and they will have been voted out. The new Government not wishing to be seen to take on any previous ideas will shelve it until they re-invent it 10 years later. Hopefully I will have peacefully passed away by then having enjoyed many good bottles of wine.

Cynically PAW

 

[Clarkkent]

And what makes you think that France will not go down the same route ... eventually?

[IAN_S]

France have had ID cards since N.Bonaparte was a lad I think?

As far as I understand, unless things have changed, it will be the usual muddle headed operation where they say "we want you to have one and pay a huge amount of money for it, but it's not compulsory......yet"

Anyway, with the now reduced commons majority, not a shirt betting gamble I wouldn't have thought.

[Clarkkent]

Ian S, of course, you are right.

But call me cynical - I don't think that we know the real origin of this matter. I wonder if it is really being driven by the USA in its post September 11 anxiety and its demand that passports/visas should contain biometric identity information? Then there will be the usual insistence that that the world falls in step with US practice.

[Mark]

As I have to work in the USA a fair bit (and they only let you have one if you do), I have got a PortPASS card available from the US Department of Justice - Immigration and Naturalisation Service. The card is used by putting it into a machine on the way through the airport.  You don't need the two cards that you would normally fill in to get through the passport control either. Anyone seen the queues for both nationals and non-nationals entering at Newark? You bypass all of those and save several hours!

In effect, all you do is call into the offices at the airport (Newark in my case) on the way out and ask for one. They take your photograph, scan your palm print, finger and thumb prints and then put all of the data onto a credit-card size plastic card with a copy of the photo. The only thing not there in relation to the proposed UK card is a retina scan.

The point I am reaching with this is, that it is free.

[IAN_S]

Clarkkent

I don't think you are cynical at all and I'm sure you are right.

Funnily enough, I am in favour of ID cards in general as I believe they would save a lot of hassle in proving one's identity in a number of ways, shopping, banking, just living in a foreign country where it's the norm.

Blair said the other day that he could not force the country to pay such large amounts for the technology, and there are doubts whether it would work properly anyway. Also the time taken to introduce such a system would mean that vast numbers of the population would not have a card for a long time.
Anyone could say "sorry officer, mine hasn't been issued yet".

 

 

 

 

 

[Will]

I think that if the proposed British identity card was merely a way of proving identity, like the French version, there would be far fewer problems. I would personally not object to having one, just as I have no objection to having a French Titre de Sejour. However, all the guff about protection against terrorism and the real need for all of the embedded data proposed (as against relatively simple fraud protection measures) makes me highly suspicious of the Blairite proposal. Maybe it's my turn to be cynical, but I get the impression that the major objection here is the traditional cheapskate Britisher abroad one of having to pay for a card, rather than the principle behind it.

I personally regret the partial phasing out of the French carte de sejour. When the requirement was in force people were at least aware of the need to prove to the French authorities that they had jobs and/or other income, health cover etc in order to live here. I don't think the visible increase in no-hoper British immigrants in the last year or two is totally unconnected with doing away with this sensible precaution.

From what I have seen all British passport holders will need to have an identity card, regardless of where they actually live, assuming the proposed system ever enters the statute book. I'm afraid I can't see a future government of different colour repealing any such legislation though, just as New Labour was happy to retain many of the Thatcherite laws and policies. True Liberals and traditional Socialists would probably be against ID cards, but ID cards were favoured by most Conservatives in the pre-Blair era.

[Ron Avery]

But if UK residents have proper ID cards like French nationals do  now, then will we need a passport to travel within the EU?  I was somewhat surprised to find out the other day that despite the UK's zeal for border protection, French nationals with ID cards can travel to the UK without a passport. 

[Dog]

It is a complete con trick designed to make the politicians mates rich.

Yet another stealth tax.

We shouldn't and don't legally need passports especially to visit the EU but get made to use them.

The other big con at the moment is making people have the new Euro Registration Document for vehicles - A4 4pp (in from memory 3 colours) its amazing the French can get by with one page of A5 in black and white!

[andyh4]

Ron,

European identity cards are accepted throughout the EU as equivalent to a passport.  If you think about it this makes sense since the ID card carries as much if not more info than the passport.

[Dick Smith]

Dog - if you know about it, how can it be a stealth tax?

Do you have any evidence to back up the 'politicians' mates' accusation? Any names, for example?

[Missy]

[quote]France have had ID cards since N.Bonaparte was a lad I think? As far as I understand, unless things have changed, it will be the usual muddle headed operation where they say "we want you to have one ...[/quote]

Maybe not since Napoleon was a wee lad but still they have been around a heck of a long time AND we (us the French citizens) HAVE to pay for the pleasure of having one.

My last one (many moons ago) cost me around 100 good old french francs! Long before they even dreamt/thought of the Euro!! And we can't moan about it as the thing is compulsory...

Now I walk around my ID card issued by the French Consulate in London and with my passport which cost a fair wack!...

Anyway I can't think why the fuss about a little bit of plasticized carton with your mug shot on it. What is your driving licence? your club membership card? your security card to enter your place of work? etc... No one seems to complain about those that they are an infringement on one's liberty...etc...

What a load of twaddle!...

I wish ALL our credit cards had our photos on! so when it is stolen and the b****y thief signs off a WHOOPING HUGE spending spree passing as yourself, the b*****d would have a wee problem!...

as I know only too well at my costs!!...

Many times I have been thankful to provide the said little bit of ID.

[Teamedup]

There are many reasons why I am against id cards and living here so long has illustrated to me what nonsense they are.

I've seen my fellow villagers give their fingerprints like every other french citizen when they apply/reapply for their cards. Does this make the gendarmes efficace? I should coco, they have everybody's finger prints and still can't do it.

My view is now long held that the only people who are embetted are honest folks. The crooks get away with whatever they want to get away with and I'm sure that if they want to get forged 'new' id cards, they'll get them too. There are some very clever people who do highly illegal and lucrative things.

[Tourangelle]

We used to have to pay for carte de séjour, I seem to remember it was about 150 francs, which admittedly is less than is being discussed for the UK.

[Hoddy]

The carte de sejour was a very different thing. I don’t think it allowed the government to track every move you made. The propsed British ID card will provide a really comprehensive track of almost everything we do. I don’t want them to be able to. Not because I’m a criminal or have something to hide, but because it’s none of their business.

I don’t think that it will cut down on any of the fraud that the government claims.

It’s curious isn’t it that when many people think that this idea originates from the post  9/11 USA,  the idea of a national ID cards (with centrally held records)  would never get off the ground there.

I am astonished that my own MP voted in both lobbies. I didn't even know you could.

Hoddy.

[urko]

[quote]Dog - if you know about it, how can it be a stealth tax? Do you have any evidence to back up the 'politicians' mates' accusation? Any names, for example?[/quote]

Excuse me for stepping in (I have no connectoin with Dog) 

It's a stealth tax because it effectively a hypothecated tax but is being represented as a charge for a document.  Since it is a de-facto tax on identity initially for the 80% of us who want a passport and later for all, it would be more honest to call it what it is - an identity tax.  We weren't offered the figures to base a choice on during the election (and we still aren't getting a straight answer)

The contract hasn't officially been awarded.  Some "pre-Bill" work has been done by ATOS Origin (a French IT firm).  The Chairman of ATOS UK is Lord Barnett (a former Labour cabinet minister).  ATOS also helps fund the Labour-friendly IPPR - backing its forthcoming "digital britain" manifesto.

[urko]

Anyway I can't think why the fuss about a little bit of plasticized carton with your mug shot on it. What is your driving licence? your club membership card? your security card to enter your place of work? etc... No one seems to complain about those that they are an infringement on one's liberty...etc...
What a load of twaddle!...

The UK government proposal is for far more that.  Everyone would have their photo (3 views), fingerprints and Iris scanned.  All of this data and 50 other pieces of data (and possibly more in future) would be stored in a central database.  You will have to visit a government centre to give this data and be interviewed about who you are - at a time and place determined by them.

If you move house you must tell the government - but of course they will have to verify it's really you - so presumably just filling in a form, or telephoning them won't do - you'll have to visit an official.

Commercial organisations will be able to pay the government for access to the data (not the whole thing but just enough to verify you are who you say).  Every time this is done, record of who asked and why, and where will be kept.

Now imagine you are the violent and abusive partner of someone who has run away from you.  You bribe an official who can easily find out where your runaway partner has been recently.

Or maybe you are a clever computer hacker - you devise a way to steal large parts of the database with people's real data including their address history and "usual" patterns of behaviour.

How secure does this make you feel?

[Dick Smith]

Sorry, Urko, whoever you may be. It isn't a tax and it isn't stealthy. It's the dim use of Daily Mail clichés that I object to. And no evidence of corruption either. Whatever happened to 'Put up or shut up'?

I think you are paranoid, or have something to hide, sorry.

[Weedon]

Having recently watched the celebrations of possibly Britains greatest hero Nelson. The thought has occurred to me that he might have had difficulty in getting past all the red tape involved in obtaining one of these proposed identity cards with his one good eye and only one arm?

weedon

[urko]

[quote]Sorry, Urko, whoever you may be. It isn't a tax and it isn't stealthy. It's the dim use of Daily Mail clichés that I object to. And no evidence of corruption either. Whatever happened to 'Put up or sh...[/quote]

Dick

That's all fair enough.  I probably shouldn't have jumped in on a question destined for someone else anyway.  I do feel pretty strongly on this issue.  I don't know if I'm paranoid.  I don't read the Daily Mail and it pains me to think I might be in tune with them on anything (nearly as much as it pains me to know Mrs Thatcher and I agree on ID cards - I never expected to agree with her on anything!).

I accept that I offered no concrete proof of corruption - nor could I.  There is a ceratin closeness between the proponents in and outside government - I'm not entirely comfortable with that but I'm sure it's not illegal.

I certainly do have plenty to hide though, I don't trust this and all future governments with so much information, and I don't believe they need it.  As I think a few others have observed, a simple ID card scheme is one thing (although I don't personally see the need for it) - the scheme proposed is something else.  I am not a criminal (apart from occasional speeding), but I don't want the government to be in control of my identity.

On the matter of the tax I accept what you say - it's not a tax in the direct sense, just a charge I will be compelled to pay (or if they make the card "free" I'll pay out of general taxation) and it's certainly money I feel could be better spent in other areas.

A database of the type proposed is, I understand, forbidden by the German Constitution.  I wonder why a Constitution drawn up after the last war with the partial aim of preventing a totalitarian regime such as the pre-war one should have been so specific on this matter?

I don't wish to fall out with anyone - just to debate the issues.

As for the original question, the Bill allows for the Secretary of State to require specifc groups to register - this has led to speculation that ex-pats could be required to register in advance of other groups - however this is of course only speculation.

 

[Dick Smith]

Urko, I apologise if you are as genuine as you seem to be, but this forum has been much vexed by people who change identities like vests and do little more than troll.

My point, which you seem to acknowledge, is that the cost of a card isn't a tax, it's a charge, it isn't stealth because you know about it, and to call it so simply means that people are hard of thinking. They leap straight into the cliché without engaging brain, and I am thoroughly sick of cliché-ridden invective taking the place of though. . Similarly the 'it's all money for their friends' argument is unprovable and very probably untrue, British politics isn't like that (if you know different anyone let's see the proof) even under the Tories. People may get 'favours' done (as under the Tories) but not whole rafts of very difficult and dangerous (for the government) legislation passed to grease a palm or two.

But I believe that a blank refusal to carry an identity card IS paranoid. Look at the people who are against - Liberty - the people who say that we should be more tolerant of lawbreakers - or objecting to drug testing of criminals. If you are straight and above board you have nothing to fear, and an identity card is less dangerous to you than tracking you through your mobile phone, which I find a bit spooky (dial 999 and they will tell you where you are straight away...) The majority of people support cards because they will make life better for them - as in a small way it might have for me when someone ran into my car and showed me false documents.

[urko]

Dick

Thanks for that - I think you make an excellent point about cliches - very thought-provoking for me - you have got me bang to rights and I didn't even realise I was doing it.  I think (perhaps rather obviously!) we'll have to agree to disagree about ID cards - but there's no point in my only debating with people who agree with me.

As to majority support - time will tell - latest polls suggest about 45% in favour - if we follow the Australian experience this will continue to fall and the scheme will be dropped - however a case may yet be made and in any case polls don't really prove very much.

I don't agree with everything Liberty campaigns for, and as I said, I certainly never expected to find common cause with Mrs T - but there is a reassuring cross-party nature to the opposition to ID cards that means I don't have to align myself with one narrow strand of society.

As it happens, becoming a French citizen probably wouldn't be a way to avoid it, as the French are currently considering something very similar.

Thanks for you replies and regards

Urko

[Teamedup]

French people have had to give their prints for years now. I remember being in the Mairie an awfully long time ago, sorting something out and seeing someone giving their prints just like that. I mean, just like that. They hadn't commited a crime or anything, they just 'had' to renew their ID. And they didn't bat an eyelid and my jaw must have dropped. I was so shocked. I could not understand why a country would insist upon that from it's citizens.

And I knew that there was something sinster and wrong about the whole thing. And if they had asked me for my prints for my carte de sejour, I would not have given them.

Only it turned out it isn't that sinister in France, as, in my humble opinion the gendarmes are so, ah I'll say it, useless, that they don't seem to use this information that everyone, well every native has to give to help solve crimes.

 

I'm still agin ID. The lawbreakers will have them forged and us normal folk will pay for something we don't need.

 

[urko]

Before I post this let me say I'm not a Guardian reader any more than I am a Mail reader - but this was drawn to my attention form Saturday's Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/idcards/story/0,15642,1519619,00.html

It's one of the best cases I've seen yet for why it's perfectly valid to have "something to hide".