Air conditioners

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

The split system type providing cold and hot air as required.

Not sure if this is the right forum, but.

Had a salesman round the other day (only had him round to practise my

French). He claimed that my electric bill could be halved if we

installed an air con unit and get €4000 back by having three splits

(the header unit) in the house. Total cost would be €8000 including the

main box and installation.

He also claimed that 75% of electricity bill per year is through heating (if it's electrical heating of course).

Now, I know salesmen twist all the numbers to exaggerate their point

(as we did a little to counter his argument), but I cannot see how 75%

of the annual bill could be purely on heating. No way. Especially as

heating would only be used probably only 4 months of the year. 40% max.

We did the numbers based on his, and still worked out it would take

well over 10 years for it to pay for itself. Probably more as his

numbers would lean towards his side.

And I remember having air cons when we lived in Australia and they cost

an absolute fortune to run. I can't imagine them working very well in

France either, as ours even struggled with the Australian winters at

night (it was a top brand too with supposedly plenty of power for the

size room it was to heat/cool).

This salesman seemed to be edf backed too.

Anyone else find air cons over here ok?

R.

[Quillan]

Basically if he was selling these inverter a/c units and they are of good quality the manufactures make claims that you could get around 4kw of heat (+/- a couple of hundred) for every 1kw of power you. I have been reading up on this recently but have to say I don't understand it completely but basically old units switch on and off, the new units use DC pumps and fans (hence the word inverter although I always thought an inverter changed DC to AC but there you go) which run at variable speed. If you think of an electric iron, it takes more energy to get it up to temperature than it does to keep it there (try explaining that to the wife when she goes for a cup of tea or a pea halfway throught the ironing turning the iron off when she goes and back on when she returns). Therefore varying the speed of the fans and pumps on these units (instead of constantly turning them on and off) as the room gets to the required temperature is what saves the money. You can buy them from Brico Depot although the biggest is only a two head unit but at least you can save some money by installing them yourself.

To give you an idea using the Brico Depot example

One outside unit and two inside units (BiSplit) The inside units will heat or cool areas of 28m2 and 40m2.

The ordinary (on/off) type costs 719 Euros and gives a total of 6,400kw of heating for 2,100kw of electricity used giving a ratio of 3.04 and thus is 'B' rated.

The inverter type costs 1,259 Euros gives 7,100kw of heat for only 1,740kw of electricity used giving a ratio of 4.08 and thus is 'A' rated.

The normal units work down to an outside temp of -7 where as the inverters work down to -15.

Now aparently this ratio bit is important and some of the 'named' companies like Toshiba etc can get ratios of around 4.8 but then you will be paying a lot more for the equipment.

If it helps a single Inverter (Brico Depot) for a 40m2 area will cost 559 and for 62m2 it will cost 899 Euros so if you take the biggest plus the BiSplit the total cost would be around 2,158 Euros. You then need three sets of pre-charged pipes at 120 a pop (these have the gas inside and are bayonet fit so you don't need some chap to come out and 'charge' your system with refrigerant once installed) which brings the total to around 2,518 Euros. Why not call it 3k what with all the mounting brackets, bolts, screws, mains cable and drills to drill through the wall etc.

I hope to be fitting them in our house this winter and get rid of these electric heaters which were quite expensive and suppose to be very economic but still cost a bomb to run.

So if you think you can install them yourself you can firstly save a few bob of your bills plus you could save about 5k on the installation. In fact you buy them and I will install them for you for 2k (I need to practice before I install them in my place)...... OK only joking [;-)]

One warning, they also cool so what you gain in the winter you might find you loose in the summer if you don't use a bit of self control on hot days.

Hope that helps and I am sure others know more than me on this subject.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Wow, thanks for your time in explaining this. It seems they are more than what I thought (as in what they are about).

Perhaps some thought needs to go into this after all, but one things for sure, after reading your example, Brico would be the place to go. I'd feel more confident in doing the job myself and save a fortune rather than using the system the salesman quoted.

I also really would only need two heads, one for my downstairs loungeroom and one for my office I'm in the process of renovating from a shed. Shame they're at the opposite ends of the property, so I'd probably need two systems.

Well, good luck with your installation and I hope it all goes according to plan.

Thanks for your installation offer too.... [;-)]

[Quillan]

If you are interested you should do some research just to check that I have interpreted the information correctly. Inverter type a/c units have been around for years apparently but have always been very expensive. The Japanese and Koreans have developed the technology to make them cheap and affordable for the consumer market. The terminology is basically the same in English and French so if you search on google for "inverter climate control" and "inverter air conditioning" you can look through and find some interesting info. Make sure you check the dates of articles as these things have really come on in leaps and bounds over the last two years. You might find THIS interesting to read to give you some idea of how it works and why inverters are better. Keep in mind you are really dealing with quite high tech thermal pumps.

The cubic space you are heating/cooling is important to calculate the capacity of the unit you require but you can find this on the Internet as well. The French take a view that the average ceiling height is fixed (two point something metres) hence they give square metres of floor area. You should go for a unit that has a capacity bigger than the area you are heating or cooling as I read in one report that these things have no advantage when running at full power over normal units, in fact they can be less economic. Where they save real money is once the area is up, or down, to temperature. I saw a figure of 30% economy between the two type of unit in several reports.

I think if you can justify the initial cost and you are looking to install in to an existing house they are a very good substitute for ground heat pumps and underfloor heating.  If you are building from scratch or are renovating and have to fit a new floor anyway then it pays to look at geothermal heat-pumps. Although more expensive they work much better and are more economic than inverters or so they say.

Good luck.

[krusty]

Quillan have you bought your unit yet ?

Your postings have got me interested in a split unit for heating.

I would like to hear anyones experience of doing a self install.

My nearest Bricodepot is a 2.5 hr drive away so I looked for somewhere nearer and found Vial sell units made by AUX , but could find no info on them. At least the ones from BD are supplied by a French company that offer backup.The Vial website has an installation video , if you watch it , is that all there is to purging the system ?

http://www.vial-menuiseries.com/climatisations-s431.html

[Quillan]

Hi, yes it took me two days to fit the two mainly because I had to wait for somebody to help me lift the outside unit on to its stand which is 2M up the wall.

Brilliant so far. The lounge, and we have a vaulted ceiling, is at 24 deg and the electricity meter is hardly moving, well in comparison to when we have the old electric heaters on. What I need is two weeks of the same weather so I can take some readings using both systems for comparison. I have some readings from 2007 but I can't remember what the weather was like those weeks.

A bigger test comes next week with temps down to -2 and snow to boot. My first impression is that they are really good and look like they are worth the money although to be fair you probably need a year. Don't forget you have AC now for the summer so what you gained in savings during the winter you may loose in the summer by using the AC.

Yes connecting up really is that easy, they push together and a leaver drops over to lock the connection together. Don't forget the units are pre charged as are the pipes.

[krusty]

[quote user="Quillan"]

 

Yes connecting up really is that easy, they push together and a leaver drops over to lock the connection together. Don't forget the units are pre charged as are the pipes.

[/quote]

Hi Q , Just a bit confussed you mention pipework just clips together but in the other thread you mention an engineer vacing down your system ?

[WJT]

This sounds very interesting to me too. Is this system a heat pump? Our plumber suggested this is something we should consider as a supplement to our oil fired wet radiator system. However, I can't see how this could work with radiators. [8-)]

[UlsterRugby1999]

Morning Quillan - I still havent bought the units. When I finally find what I think I'm looking for there appears something to put me off them. The last one was the cost of having a local guy gas them up. Nearly 600€............

The BricoDepot units do now appear to be value for money. One question if you, or any of the other guys, can answer for me. The BiSplit Inverter unit shows a COP of 3.42 with an energy rating of A (for chauffage) with a cost of 1349€ whereas the non inverter unit costs 749€ has a COP of 3.2 and a energy rating of B. Difference between the two COP's is 0.22 but cost is nearly 50% cheaper/dearer. The big difference is the lowest temeratures that they will operate at max efficiency. The inverter will run at optimum down to -15 while the non inverter is only rated to -7.

So, to the question - what happens when the units get to a temp below either -7 or -15? Do they just stop running or do they reduce in efficiency or what? I cannot find any information on this.

Cheers - Paul

[Quillan]

And good morning to you too.

Firstly the inverter thing. Inverter means they have variable speed units where as the non inverter are either on or off. Like most electrical things it costs more when you switch things on than it does to run them. Once the room is at temperature the inverter unit changes speed to keep the room at said temp where as the other will switch on and off as the temp changes. This is why the inverter system is more economic. You could try searching on Inverter Air Conditioning and there are some papers that explain it better than I and help you work out what power rating you need.

The variance in min temp is because of a combination of compressor and gassing of the liquid. Because the inverter type changes speed as apposed to being either on or off it can work down to lower air temps. When the outside air temp gets very low they become less efficient.

I am no expert on this so talk to a professional, all the above is what I discovered searching out info on the subject.

Our local guy charged 80 Euros to 'Gas up'. I used the 'prefilled' hoses but you will still get a little air in the pipes so basically he sucked everything out, including the refrigerant then refilled with my refrigerant and topped it up with about a litre of his. Your guy may be charging for all the refrigerant or he might be taking the pea because you are not buying from him.

We had a meter reading a few weeks back and early indications show I have reduced my electricity bill for the same period by about 35%. The negative side is that with the hot weather there is a temptation to use them as chillers which would offset the savings made in the winter. My finger keeps caressing the remote but so far I have managed to keep it under control and not press the on button.

[krusty]

Morning UR as I was sprawled out last night chilling , I was wondering how you went on. [8-|]

As I said I only intended fitting an a/c for heating in winter but the temptation has been too great this week ,so unlike Q the button has been pressed .

I bought a brand called ARIA ,and have only fitted one so far . I bought them on ebay from a dealer , paid about 500 each for a model 9 and a model 12. They come with nylon hoses that are charged with nitrogen and the mounting bracket for the outside unit. I let the hoses vent , then allowed the gas through .The one I have done seems to work ok so far , whether not being vaced down will cause any problems in the future , time will tell.

This is some info on Aria .

I have just had this months Castorama leaflet and they have a new one on sale Zenith 3590w 399euros , but I do not think it is inverter.

[UlsterRugby1999]

Morning folks and many thanks for the responses.

Krusty - thanks for the link. I need 2 BiSplit units and a large MonoSplit unit so sadly your link doesnt get me what I want. Thanks anyway.

Quillan - good response, as always. I kind of understand the inverter concept but wondered with such a close set of CoP figures (and EER stats too) would the saving in buying the cheaper models be agin me or for me. For the three models I need the difference in cost is either 4k€ or 2.2k€ which is quite a significant saving, but would the running costs soon burn up that saving.

Then the temperature aspect of it makes me wonder how often we get to below -7C let alone -15C here in the south east Vienne area. If it was a case, for example, that the CoP delivery dropped 0.1 or 0.2 for every degree below the -7C then I could live with that for the short periods we would have those temperatures. If, however, they just shut down then there is no competition. In that case everything this last winter would have shut down.

Does this make any sense or am I barking up the wrong tree again

[Quillan]

To be honest I understand what you are after (to be told which one is best) but its difficult because every house and every location is different.

My installation is as follows, two monosplit for the lounge and one monosplit in each bedroom and a storage heater in the long hall. The two monosplits are on a south facing wall but under the roof which extends 2.5M out over the terrace. Because the sun is lower in the winter it shines on the units but in the summer it is higher and does not (pretty cool positioning my me I thought, best of both worlds). The temperature round here can regularly get to -15 and in the worse case (OK only twice in 8 years) gets to -18 yet I still saved about 35% and I have inverter units. I can't answer for the cheaper units as I have no experience with them. You could go for the cheap ones in bedrooms and inverters in living areas, just as a suggestion. You don't have heating on so much in bedroom and not for so long either. Oh and don't forget noise, inverters are less noisy when the room is at temp.

Mr Bricolarge has units in their sale 50% off, thats in Limoux and I don't know what type they are. I assume its the same in other branches although knowing France probably not but worth a look.

[powerdesal]

Good Morning All,

A very interesting thread. I am presently planning the heating installation for next winter and Quillans experience and comments are extremely valuable and relevant.

I am tempted to 'suck it and see' with just one unit this time for the lounge, my calcs indicate a heating requirement of 2952 w for the 28m sqr area and I am tempted towards an 'Airton' unit from Bricodepot at E520 + E89 + E23 = E 632.

I have tried to find info on 'Airton' as a manufacturer but no joy. Q, is this the brand that you fitted?

Its a warranted , inverter unit at class A with pre-charge pipes, so maybe worth it.

My fitting position is also on a south facing wall so should benefit from any winter sun. I don't think the aircon facility is relevant to me so I'm not worried about summer temps on the unit.

My thoughts are to fit the interior fan/coil unit at low level ( ie under a window, similar to radiator positioning) with the warm air outlet about (say) 20 - 30 cms above the floor so that the air flow is at low level and is analagous to blown air skirting heaters, can anyone see a problem there? Cold feet are SWMBO's problem in winter, with a tiled floor.

We definitely get below -7 on a regular winter basis so -15 is really a must I believe.

regards

The Bricodepot price is quite attractive when compared to the Carrier units from Castorama at virtually double the price, I am familiar with Carrier and believe they are a top manufacturer, but is the price really just for the name? If not, longevity could be an issue I suppose.

The Aria unit mentioned by Krusty? is cat C for heating which concerns me in terms of running costs.

[Chancer]

To answer a few of your questions I have an Airton split unit that I bought as an end of line from Brico-Depot 2 or maybe 3 years ago, it is the old type (r407?) ungreen gas and is not an invertor type. I use it for cooling in the summer and as top up heating (I have storage heaters) when it is very cold or I have been caught out by a sudden cold snap after reducing the charge on the other heaters.

It is only supposed to work down to minus 5 or thereabouts but thankfully it is unaware of this restriction, we hit minus 18 last winter and it was still giving out significant heat, what percentage I cannot say as it is used to top up but the dwell periods while the evaporator defrosts were noticeably more frequent.

The temperature control is pretty appalling, I think that this is because the thermostat is mounted in the unit high up on the wall at the hottest par of the room, it definitely has better temperature control of heating than cooling.

I would recommend that you avoid the units with dry break couplings at all cost as the seals do not (unless they were to use prohibitively expensive O rings), it has already been discussed on this forum that it not a question of if you will need recharging but when.

My unit had a purge and bleed sequence to follow and I am sure that it would benefit from a proper vacuum down and recharge but around here the guys charge a minimum of €250 to recharge a fridge which is twic what I paid for my system.

Overall I am very pleased but I dont know if I would consider one for the only source of heating for two reasons (make that 3, no 4!)

I dont honestly know if the performance would be adequate when you need the heating most at sub zero temperatures, and I doubt that it ould be any more economical than other electrical heating in these circumstances.

The middle of winter is not the time to be negotiating with or held to ransom by the recharge man.

I think that one unit for a room as large as 30m2 would not give an even heat compared to several smaller heaters.

Having cooling breezing down (balayage) from on high is quite comforting but heating not so.

[powerdesal]

Thanks for the comments JR.

It would not in fact be the only source of heating, it would be supplementary to the wood burner seen below:-

[IMG]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/powerdesal/AugtoNov2008064.jpg[/IMG]

The objective being to get a warm airflow at ground level sweeping (hopefully) across the floor to keep the feet of Madam from going blue with cold. The present floor is tiled and is quite cold, even with the air temp in the upper part being reasonable. Floor insulation is planned in the future.

SWMBO claims we dont need to do this but I disagree (I want my own way !!!!) having been on the receiving end of complaints throughout last winter.

Multiple smaller heaters are not an option due to the configuration of the room.

[UlsterRugby1999]

powerdesal - wwww.airton.fr - what does SWMBO stand for.

Quillan - [;-)] not looking for which one is best but rather what happens when the temp gets below -7C or -15C. Do they simply switch off or reduce efficiency. Like you, we get temps here that come in at -15C or so. This winter the nearest recording Mairie recorded an all time low of -21C (so we are told). So if the units switch off, then the inverters would have done so too but would have kept going that much longer. If its an efficiency thing then I'd suck it and see (as powerdesal says [;-)] ) and take the hit for the few days that it gets so cold.

As you say Quillan the cheaper units in the bedrooms would be okay, if, they dont switch themselves off below their stated temperature level. As JR's gone native tells us, his older unit, rated to -5C doesnt switch of even when it gets down to -18C so maybe the bedrooms could work fine with the cheaper units.

One more question for you clever troops - how can a unit which produces 3.5 CoP be energy rated at C when another unit which produces 3.42 CoP be rated at B????

I wont be here for a while as I'm off right now, with my son, to the French Open in Paris - aye - its tough at the top.............[:P]

[powerdesal]

SWMBO = She who must be obeyed,......referred to by some as...."her indoors". !

[Maricopa]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]what does SWMBO stand for.[/quote]

Really useful website for future reference.

[Anton Redman]

First used I believe in 'She' by H Ryder Haggard. Popularised by John Mortimer in Rumpole.

[Ian Rough]

C'Energie

Does anyone know whether the renewable energy company called C'Energie  been taken over as they ceased trading in March?  We bought a system with them, along with an extended service contract and it would seem that we have now lost the 2.400 Euros that we spent with them for a seven contract that should start next month!

[UlsterRugby1999]

Okay - the deed has been done. But wait until you hear.

On Saturday, while en route to Paris for the Open, I called in to Chateauroux to get some paint from BricoDepot. Guess what? They had on special offer their air con units. The cheaper BiSplit units (non inverter type) which had been 749€e were now 499€ and the MonoSplit unit (inverter type) which had been 899€ was now 599€. So, without a further thought, I bought the 3 units I wanted for a saving 800€. They are not the quick fit connections but I couldnt resist them at that price.

All I need now is someone to make the connections and gas them up. Hey ho - thanks folks for all your input. Good luck. Paul

[krusty]

Hi , how are we all doing , cozy and warm ?

Last weekend was the first test of my units and they preformed well , -3`c outside .It is great that with such low temperature outside they can produce heat.

[IMG]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z308/elmerfudd-666/resized_IMG_6540.jpg[/IMG]

Today it is 9`c outside dull and raining , the two units are running at low speed taking 8amps for both.