Pregnancy - Old aged Tweeny - The Great Escape

[idun]

On both sides of the channel I find friends becoming their children's servant. I think it would be reasonable for grown up children to say 'you are having a baby' to their parents, as for all these adult children do the deed and bring life forth, they are not able, maybe even not willing to care for this baby and then child on a daily basis.

In fact the grandparents are worse off than any parent looking after their own child. They have the added worry of caring for someone else's child and have to work their way around said grandchild's care to have any sort of life of their own. It appears to me that as soon as they have taken up the mantle of taking over the care that their responsiblity exceeds that of the parent and the actual parent's can become over demanding and even bullies.

In fact unpaid, overworked and of a certain age, these are valiant old aged tweenys, I hesitate to say, slaves to their own children, but it seems to be getting that way in some cases..

And to the Great Escape. I admit that I have often wondered why people who are retiring move to a country that often they don't know that well, that is how I see it from the questions I see asked and often don't speak french either. So is it an escape. If you're not available you cannot become a 'new' surrogate parent and are prepared and prefer to deal with the rigors and difficulties of living in another country, as at least it is one's own life, rather than a life where expectations and being dictated too are a real possiblity.

 

I was orgnanising a trip for three days with friends. One said she'd come and then that night called me to say that her son had said that she couldn't as she had her two grandchildren to look after. What I would have said to him would not have been polite, but she is not the only one this is happening to at the moment. And another friend has been told by the 'other' grandmother than she'll have to look after the new baby as she already has other children to look after, my friend, not the mother or father............ how did we get to this state?  Is the Great Escape the answer, missing grandchildren is one thing, having them more than their parents is quite another, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

[andyh4]

[quote user="idun"]

..... missing grandchildren is one thing, having them more than their parents is quite another, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Isn't it just a return to the way things were before the so called atomic and vastly mobile family arrived?

Grandparents looked after great grandparents and grand children.  The parents worked - often 60+ hours per week.

[idun]

What  I know is that my parents looked after us and there was no one else to do so, as I looked after mine.

I don't think that we should chose a particular part of history to compare ourselves too, which level of society would we chose, maybe the upper classes who probably never did child care anyway?

 

[Patf]

I know you can't turn back the clock, but there's a lot to be said for the extended family to be all under the same roof. First it saves money, and second it's good for family relationships.

We moved in with Mum's parents for a few years, and I loved it. Always some adult to turn to, as Mum's 2 younger sisters were still at home, and there were always  visitors and lots going on.

Mum went out to work, and I think I was closer to my Gran than to her.

BTW french grandparents seem to take a more active role in the upbringing of their grandchildren than modern UK grandparents.

[idun]

I  haven't found any difference in the active roles in either country. Friends in both are 'suffering' this burden, because that is what I hear.

At last a fairly fit and not badly off older generation who are being pushed into servitude. Very strange really.

[Pommier]

Are these grandparents 'suffering' though, or are they looking after their grandchildren because they want to, and they want to help their adult children who need to work all hours to be able to buy their houses?

I would have thought that an unwilling and resentful grandparent wouldn't make a very good child carer!

[YCCMB]

There's a bit of a double-whammy going on, which is getting worse for a number of reasons. Someone coined the expression "sandwich generation" a while ago. Many fifty-somethings are finding themselves in a position where they are still provising a home for their own children, who can't afford to moave out and move on, whilst at the same time often finding that they are carers for elderly parents who are living longer but not always able to remain independent. For some, this means that whether they like it or not, they might be forced to continue working after they'd planned to retire (to help support their unemployed children) or to retire when they'd planned to continue working (to help support elderly parents). If, on top of these issues, the children have kids of their own and then look to the parents for childcare support, the overall result seems to be that we've entered a generation whose "lifestyle choices" for retirement have been taken completely out of their hands.

I agree with previous posters that earlier generations pretty much relied on the extended family network to spread the burden a bit, but since then we've gone through a long period of people becoming more mobile and families becoming (relatively speaking) much smaller.  There's a lot to juggle, these days.

[Edward Trunk]

I think Pommier is right. All the friends I know who have become grandparents have embraced their new status - particularly the new grandmother. They are empty nesters, and they are usually retired. It gives them a role and a purpose.

[idun]

[quote user="Pommier"]

Are these grandparents 'suffering' though, or are they looking after their grandchildren because they want to, and they want to help their adult children who need to work all hours to be able to buy their houses?

I would have thought that an unwilling and resentful grandparent wouldn't make a very good child carer!

[/quote]

Resentful, will they say that, no, I don't know anyone who would want to sound so mean. It's the little comments and the plans unravelled before they've really started and not being about to go to XYorZ that show what is happening. Do they love their grandchildren, yes, they do, and I doubt I know of anyone who would take it out on the kids. But it is still there.  

A good friend has an ageing mother who is no longer well, she cleans her mother's house and has her mother to stay every weekend. Her sister in law was seriously ill and she was helping her, the cancer took her recently. Her daughter leaves her son with her on her only day off work and her daughter is pregnant again. Freedom to do as she pleases, not really, she tells me about it and never complains. She has brought three kids up with no outside help and now, well, all her time is taken. Solidly sandwiched really.

 

[idun]

[quote user="Edward Trunk"]I think Pommier is right. All the friends I know who have become grandparents have embraced their new status - particularly the new grandmother. They are empty nesters, and they are usually retired. It gives them a role and a purpose.[/quote]

 

If I got like that I'd like someone to shoot me. I daresay I'd love my grandchildren, but to 'need' the parent again......not on your nelly, the parents are there for that, I'd be there for treats.

[Mr Ice-ni]

[quote user="idun"]

I was orgnanising a trip for three days with friends. One said she'd come and then that night called me to say that her son had said that she couldn't as she had her two grandchildren to look after. What I would have said to him would not have been polite, but she is not the only one this is happening to at the moment. And another friend has been told by the 'other' grandmother than she'll have to look after the new baby as she already has other children to look after, my friend, not the mother or father............ how did we get to this state?  Is the Great Escape the answer, missing grandchildren is one thing, having them more than their parents is quite another, isn't it?

[/quote]

Wow, idun, you really seem to have cornered the market in spineless friends - do their vocabularies not extend to the word "no"?

When I sired children I ran the risk of becoming a grandparent. So far though I'm not - the prospect does not concern me one way or another except to say that living 500+ miles away will probably preclude my becoming a baby minder.

Di has grandchildren but knows that if she ever suggests moving back to Essex to be closer to them that I will happily help her pack and drive her to Rodez.

John

[andyh4]

Idun

 

I think you are in danger of making comparisons with what has been a truely exceptional generation (maybe generation and a half) in terms of their luck.

 

Endowement mortgages that paid significant profits

Cheap housing that appreciated enormously - allowing them to trade up, make profit and then downsize with a very sizable chunk of cash.

Final salary pension schemes - sometimes non-contributory.

Early retirement packages that also gave a nice cash lump sum in addition.

Companies/organisations that could still offer effectively a job for life - although that has been changing for the last half generation.

Freedom of movement - motor cars at affordable prices and cheap fuel, cheap holidays around the world and latterly cheap flights.

Relatively high standards of living.

Free education to degree level.

 

All of this led to a situation where they did not have to look after the grandchildren.  Kids hard up?   Lend them (permanently) the deposit for a house.  You've got it and can afford to sub the kids - and that means they both do not need to work.

 

And before folk come back and say that did not apply to me, yes I know, nor me - but it applied more or less to many people I knew -although perhaps no one scored a plus on every single point.

 

But those halcyon times only lasted for perhaps 30 max 40 years and are now gone - probably forever.

 

Incidentally I missed on almost all of them except the free education.

 

 

[idun]

Spineless, or heartless? Saying 'no' appears to be heartless apparently, so a person cannot win.

Yes, it quite shocks me the amounts some people I know are getting or have got in pension payouts etc. Some things are very strange and unusal to me and looking at things 'the french way' becomes very apparent. Moving to France meant that I had a quite different life.

[Gardengirl]

We are still quite new to this grandparent experience. We spend what amounts to 6 months each year in France, having built up from a month or so at a time quite a time ago. So our sons and daughter-in-law already know how we spend our time, and won't be likely normally to ask for extra help. iIm also not a push-over, having become more me-minded over recent years. So far, when we're in UK we look after the little one when asked, although as she's still breast-fed and hasn't been keen at all on a bottle, it's never lasted for too long .

It will be interesting if DIL is offered a 'job' at the Olympics at her interview next month; as we always spend summer in UK we'll be available for quite long periods.

Some good comments have been made about the state many families are in today, and how things used to be - in some families. My generation has been very lucky in some of the ways mentioned by Andyh4, us included, although I never knew a time when several generations helped one nother out, never having known grandparents.

[fisherman]

I think that is is much tougher for the youngsters nowadays since deregulation of the mortgage market. Although I missed out on the perks that Andy listed (apart from education) at least I was able to afford a mortgage at an age when most kids nowadays are still at college. I think that it is a case of necessity for two people to work to just afford a new mortgage. What mum or dad is likely to deny their children some help, after all your children's success will also benefit your grandchildren.

And yes we are caught in the same trap. Resentful no but maybe a little irked at times.

[PaulT]

Not having children this is not a question for us. However......

My sister has three children and she wrapped them in cotton wool. I started to do to them, when they were young, what my uncles did to me when I was a kid, throw them up in the air and catch them. My sister soon put a stop to that and always molly coddled them.

They are now in their thirties. One is married, the other is living with someone with a child on the way and the other was in a relationship that resuted in a child. Both parents are totally irresponsible. The child is now a teenager but my sister has really acted as a mother. Whilst the son who is the father has moved out to live with a number of people this isnormally short lived before he is back home again. He has very little to do with his son and it is my sister who deos everything.

So some grandparents are their own worse enemy.

Paul

[idun]

At one of my jobs I worked with a very very ambitious clever girl. Hard working, very very good at her job and wanted to get to the top. Her brothers and sisters were the same. 13 kids, Dad never worked and they hated that and she in her early twenties thought him a waster. How kids are brought up is not the be all and end all of how they will turn out surely?

I have said before on here that I think that life is hard for kids these days and will get harder. I also believe that the legacy my generation is leaving stinks.

Still, I don't believe that when grandparents retire, it is a sign that they wish to become full time child minders, depanneurs, yes, that would be nice, but not a full time job.

[Hoddy]

I wonder if it's something to do with people having their children older these days ? When I had my children my mother was still working herself so the question didn't arise.

I find myself in the same situation as some of Idun's friends. My friends know not to ask me to lunch on Tuesdays or Thursdays.

Hoddy

[Patf]

Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but generally families are much more scattered than they used to be. First example, all the retirees in France.

The only one of our children who has a child in the UK lives near her mother in law who has had a big part in Harriet's upbringing.

The others are far away, except one unmarried, in England.

[Renaud]

I like a bumper sticker I once saw:

Grandchildren are great - I wish I had them first.

[Frecossais]

Interesting discussion. Another factor in the debate about children, parents and grandparents is the age of the grandparents. What was it? Sixty is the new forty? Many "young" retired people, especially if they have had a long working life, have expectations of their own. Look at how many go off travelling for example. Or take up interests they had little time for when working and bringing up a family.

It is hard for young people to manage their lives, the costs of childcare are enormous, but in one respect I do agree with Idun that some young parents use their own parents as cheap ie free childminders. It is expected, even demanded that if they are not working themselves, they can undertake the care of their grandchildren. My daughter has a friend who dumped first a grandson, then a grandaughter on her mother  on the two days she did not work. She has a good job and her husband also works, she didn't want to have to pay. I don't like that attitude at all.

I have three very dear grandchildren, and I delight in looking after them when I'm asked. My OH and I spend around 6 months in France, because that is our dream. We are back in England for all the major school holidays to help with looking after them, and our girls are most appreciative, taking our other commitments (lunch with friends, visits to art galleries, theatres etc) into account.

We made the decision when the grandchildren arrived not to emigrate to France, (well there were were other reasons to be fair) because we wanted to get to know them, and to be a part of their lives. I find them endlessly fascinating and entertaining, and enjoy contributing to their learning, but I would not want to bring them up. Been there, done that, got the "Best mum and dad" wall hanging.  

[KathyF]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I wonder if it's something to do with people having their children older these days ? When I had my children my mother was still working herself so the question didn't arise.....[/quote]

That was the situation for MOH and me when our two were born, plus the fact that we lived well over a hundred miles away (in two different directions) from both sets of grandparents. We simply had to bite the bullet and pay for childcare where necessary. When our two grew up they left Wales to go to university and never returned there to live afterwards.  I was still working when they had their children and though now retired, as they both live about 160 miles away (again in different directions) I've never been able to do any regular childcare. We've stepped into the breach occasionally in school holidays, but otherwise our children have had to be as self-reliant in looking after their own children as their parents were.

[Val_2]

I'm not really qualified to answer from a personal point of view as neither of my two children seem interested in settling down yet and having kids which does not bother me because I would rather they live their lives to the full first. What does hurt and hurts them is the fact their dad will never see his grandchildren, so all of you who have grandkids, cherish them but do not let them takeover your lives as I certainly would not become a slave to childminding and neither did my parents or MIL.