woolybanana Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 As of ce soir, the French army is no longer engaged in Afghanistan, if I have understood things right. Which leaves others to continue the mission that was started years ago. Mr Hollande has brought the lads home. Is this a victory, or just running away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think that is a false dichotomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Ah, the Norman comes out of his lair; Say more, svp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Must be a relief for the troops families that they have left/are leaving. I remember how happy some french friends were that France didn't get embroiled when the USA and UK invaded Afghanistan, and thought it the best thing that Chirac had ever done. They were not amused when Sarko decided that it was a good move.My Dad believes that we should never have been there, and that the UK should get out. My problem with Afghanistan is that it is such a dangerous country for the rest of the world. I reckon when everyone leaves poppy production will increase to levels that none of us could have imagined and that women will once again become slaves and treat worse than dirt. And the terrorists will have a safe haven again. I suppose historically it will eventually sort itself out. However, the pain and suffering that will be inflicted on other societies with terrorism and the addicts and the pain and suffering of the women and girls leaves me feeling that as a humane act we should not leave..... and I realise soldiers will die. I know that they will, but I feel that the deaths that will follow complete withdrawal, will make soldiers deaths pale into insignificance. That is how I feel about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 well, they might have waited until the other troops are pulled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Might? but it was always very unpopular in France. Maybe Hollande thinks that it'll score him brownie points, but I think that people are rather more disillusioned than that at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]well, they might have waited until the other troops are pulled out.[/quote]Surely no one expected them to be last out? Idun, I agree with your father and sincerely hope our days of following the USA into every conflict are done..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]well, they might have waited until the other troops are pulled out.[/quote]It may turn out it would have been better if they had .. What the troops of other countries left behind will be saying about French soldiers will be far from kind words ! With talk of a future EU combined fighting force who will trust France to play an equal part . Who would want to fight alongside them if there was a chance they are likely to leave you short handed to face the enemy by leaving the battlefield ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 ''''My Dad believes that we should never have been there, and that the UK should get out.My problem with Afghanistan is that it is such a dangerous country for the rest of the world. I reckon when everyone leaves poppy production will increase to levels that none of us could have imagined and that women will once again become slaves and treat worse than dirt. And the terrorists will have a safe haven again. I suppose historically it will eventually sort itself out.However, the pain and suffering that will be inflicted on other societies with terrorism and the addicts and the pain and suffering of the women and girls leaves me feeling that as a humane act we should not leave..... and I realise soldiers will die. I know that they will, but I feel that the deaths that will follow complete withdrawal, will make soldiers deaths pale into insignificance.That is how I feel about it.''''As I understand the history of Afghanistan, when the Taliban ruled the roost the opium poppy production was somewhat suppressed.Within weeks of the withdrawal of ISAF forces the country will, once again revert to it's traditional tribal ways, possibly suppressing the poppy production and certainly suppressing women's rightsIrrespective of how we in the West feel about it, the choice of society is their right, it's their country, not ours. We ( The West ) make a big thing about the rights of people to ''self-determination'' but we are effectively denying those rights to the people of Afghanistan. We are forcing an 'alien' creed on them, albeit with the best of intentions ( probably ). We have no God-given right to force our ideas and social mores on anyone.If the majority of the Afghan people want to change from their historical tribal way of life then they are the ones who must do it - not under force / pressure from us.The deaths of our soldiers is too high a price to pay. Worse, in some ways, than the deaths is the very high level of life changing injuries, something that is not properly reported, certainly in respect of UK injuries.We ( The UK ) are not the World's policeman, we have no right to militarily interfere in any other countries internal affairs unless such country is an overt threat to us, our way of life or our possessions. I do not believe that Afghanistan poses a threat to UK, we should leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Every time I hear of the loss of or injury to a soldier I think of this " A scrimmage at a border station....A canter down some dark defile Two thousand pounds of education ....Falls to an eight rupee jesile " so Kipling knew in his day what we are experiencing now ..and this is what its all about and what it is all for .... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304791704577419952213969924.html Polititions ....dont you just hate them ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 And Obama still maintains that France is the closest ally of the US. Really don't understand where he comes from on this. Real kick in the teeth of Britain again who continually stands with the US on many issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 That's the "one size fits all international diplomacy speech", I think you'll find.He said that in January 2011, slightly reworded to offend fewer of the US's other allies in May, and has subsequently reportedly used the "closest ally" phrase about a number of countries, including Canada and China.It's the political equivalent of "have a nice day" and "missing you already", or "all our customers are important to us" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 [quote user="powerdesal"] I do not believe that Afghanistan poses a threat to UK, we should leave.[/quote]I quite agree. I think it is tragic that we are sacrificing many brave young people for no discernible reason other than GWB's ego. The history books teach us of the futility of trying to achieve a military victory in Afghanistan so why are we even there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Rabbie wrote : The history books teach us of the futility of trying to achieve a military victory in Afghanistan so why are we even there?To try and create the dream of a stable Afganistan and so permit the USA to pump oil over it without the Taliban blowing up the piplines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 [quote user="Frederick"] Rabbie wrote : The history books teach us of the futility of trying to achieve a military victory in Afghanistan so why are we even there?To try and create the dream of a stable Afganistan and so permit the USA to pump oil over it without the Taliban blowing up the piplines [/quote]So do you think they will succeed. Unfortunately I give the taliban more chance than the USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 To try and create the dream of a stable Afganistan and so permit the USA to pump oil over it without the Taliban blowing up the piplines That seems a bit pointless given that I recently read that the USA expect to be self sufficient in oil supplies at some time in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Your right on the USA but unfortunately the oil through the pipe is for other European countries as well and I guess with the US having a very loose plan to pull out they are preparing in advance If then the Taliban do blow it up it's not their problem. It also keeps the price of crude up because if you read the same article as I then they said the price would drop by as much as half when the US becomes self sufficient. Too much supply from the middle east and too little demand what with the US being the biggest consumer and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I really can't see a trans-Afghanistan pipeline being a factor in supply from the Middle east, other than a supply to China perhaps.I must confess to not being up to date on the supply routes of crude though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 [quote user="powerdesal"]To try and create the dream of a stable Afganistan and so permit the USA to pump oil over it without the Taliban blowing up the piplines That seems a bit pointless given that I recently read that the USA expect to be self sufficient in oil supplies at some time in the near future.[/quote]The US already gets the majority of its oil supplies from Canada.I blame the EPA. Half these wars possibly wouldn't have happened in the middle east had the US been able to continue drilling in its own land. All for the sake of a few birds and bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 [quote user="powerdesal"]I really can't see a trans-Afghanistan pipeline being a factor in supply from the Middle east, other than a supply to China perhaps.I must confess to not being up to date on the supply routes of crude though.[/quote]This link is the pipeline map ... Sorry cant make it live so you will have to left click on it and highlite it to go to it .. http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Pipeline.htm It would appear that India and China fast growing will need this .... I read some time ago that the oil in Turkmenistan is so abundant that in places its a problem... People digging wells for water find it much to their annoyance ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 The US is well nigh self-sufficient in oil again and may even start exprting again; Which might well shake up the global, game. Is this why the Brits are building carriers (with no planes)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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