Vote Blanc now recognised?

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

[quote user="NormanH"]So you have nothing to say about the denial of voting rights to British people who have been  living abroad for more then 15 years?

[/quote]When I was working and living abroad in the very late 70s and 80s I did not have the right to vote in the UK. This was brought in by the Thatcher government a bit later and did not apply to those who had already moved abroad. Allegedly this was done because they believed that those ex-pats who would vote would be Conservative supporters.

I think it is reasonable that this right to vote if you live abroad lapses after 15 years since then you have shown that you have committed to life in another country. The rules have been clearly defined and should not come as a surprise to anyone.

[/quote]

Exactly. It's one of the costs (if you want to class it as this) of moving away from your native country. Why should you have a say in what will affect other people far more (if at all) than it would affect you? I'm far more interested in what's happening where I live now, than somewhere I lived 15 years ago.

[NormanH]

Except that of course many countries (including France and the US) do allow people  a vote for life.

Of course if the loss of the right to vote meant  no longer having  to pay taxes in the UK there might be some case for it , but taxation without representation is the sort of stuff one might go to war about..

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

I don't pay taxes in the UK.

I also have no intentions of ever going back to the UK. Why should I be allowed to vote? If I return to live, then of course I should have that right. But I have left the country, and have taken everything emotional and financial away with me. To my new country.

I knew the score when I left, and still decided to go.

Looking at the other side of the coin, within the next 5 months I will hopefully have a green card and find a job. I will then be a tax payer here in the country I live. However, I won't be allowed to vote. Taxation without representation is far more common this way round than paying tax in a country you no longer live in.

[NormanH]

You are lucky to have been able to make a clean break.

Some of us are forced to pay taxes in the UK yet denied a vote which would give us a say in how the money is spent.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

You knew the score when you left though.

And really, the money that is spent won't affect you anyway.

As I said in my previous post (which I added to), soon I'll be paying tax in the country I live in and will have no say in how that is spent. And that directly affects me. This is far more common than the other way round, it would be a minority who are paying tax in a country they lived in before compared to where they live now.

[YCCMB]

I am not sure why people who have chosen not to live in the UK and have been away quite so long would be considered able to contribute to decision making about how their taxes are spent within the UK.

Maybe if the UK did as some other countries do, and ha separate representation for overseas residents, this would at least ensure that UK residents do not risk having to live with any consequences of decisions inflicted upon them by the voting choices of non-residents.

Anyway, for every example like France and the US, there's an example like Canada or Ireland...

[NormanH]

I pay taxes in both but can vote in neither (in national elections)

[YCCMB]

So perhaps you might be better concentrating your frustration on France, or making comparisons with a number of countries who do grant the right to vote to permanent residents?

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I am not sure why people who have chosen not to live in the UK and have been away quite so long would be considered able to contribute to decision making about how their taxes are spent within the UK.
[/quote]

Did we actually have a say when we lived and paid tax there anyway? I didn't give them my permission to borrow money using my ability to work and pay tax as security when I lived there. In some ways and because of this I can understand why many try to practice tax avoidance. What is it they say about the certainty of life, you pay tax and you die.[:(]

[NormanH]

I think it is an area where a European ruling would be useful, so that the UK was for once in step with countries such as France Germany and Italy.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="NormanH"]I pay taxes in both but can vote in neither (in national elections)

[/quote]

Then become a French citizen. Problem solved.

[YCCMB]

In general terms, the UK IS in step with France, Germany and Italy and other EU member states. As a taxpaying resident of any of those countries, and a citizen of an EU member state, you can vote in local elections is your adopted country of residence, as you well know. The same applies to members of other EU member states who come to live and work in the UK.

As far as I am aware, the UK does not confer the right on non-nationals (specifically, members of other EU member states) to vote in General Elections. Therefore in this respect again the UK is completely in step with countries such as France, Germany and Italy. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Ireland, another EU member state, relieves any of its citizens who is not resident in Ireland of the right to vote. If you want the UK to align itself with other EU nations, then be very careful what you wish for.[:D]. Unless, of course, what you wish for is something that you see as of benefit to you personally, as opposed to any other possible solution.

As has been pointed out, the right to have a say on the national elections of your country of habitual residence is yours for the asking. It's a simple matter of taking French nationality.

[Rabbie]

Norman, you knew the rules when you moved to France. Live with it

[idun]

We moved to France in 1981. We were able to vote during the following 20 years using our former UK address. The rules changed as our 20 years had expired. I cannot remember which election we first voted in, but my brother voted on our behalf and did so several times.

I have no idea as to how we found out we could still vote, but we did. Amazing what we managed sans ordi, nez pah!

[NormanH]

The UK imposes taxation while refusing representation. I believe that to be an injustice, and while I do have to live with it I don't have to be happy with it or silent about my objections.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Well, becoming a French citizen will at least give you some say in France.

I was still paying tax in Australia for 4 years after I left, while immediately being refused the right to vote. It is what it is, but frankly, voting was way down on my list of priorities when I moved country anyway.

But as I say, I'd rather the right to vote in the land I am living in because my taxes will have a direct affect on my life.

[PaulT]

Do look at some of the policies of the MRLP that have then been adopted by other parties that have then become adopted. Beware of just looking at the name of a party and dismissing it.

Think it was the Labour government that decided to up the deposit that a candidate has to pay very considerably thus preventing some people standing as an independent thus proving that money can buy power.

As a UK citizen living in England what really bugs me is that I my MP cannot vote in the Scottish parliament but a Scottish MP can vote in the Westminster parliament on an issue that only affects England, something that the Labour government did on a number of occassions that would not have got through if only MPs representing constituencies in England could vote.

Paul

[YCCMB]

[quote user="NormanH"]The UK imposes taxation while refusing representation. I believe that to be an injustice, and while I do have to live with it I don't have to be happy with it or silent about my objections.[/quote]

I agree with you 100%. You don't have to be happy or silent about your objections. And others don't have to agree with you.

[Judith]

Apologies for a delayed reponse - been busy with pre-Christmas festivities, like singing carols at Christmas fayres. ..... and getting ready for second eye op tomorrow morning, after which I might be able to contribute again more easily with both eyes done!

Interesting to see how the discussion has  moved on since my last look .... from not wishing to vote to wanting to but being unable to .. via taxation - representation - and free speech - you can see where I've hung my hat - the rules should  be standardised in one direction or the other - then we'd all know where we were, for as it is, we have a melange of bitterness which doesn't go away, but would if you could vote where you live and pay your taxes.  Simple - really!

Rabbie said:

While I agree with you that one should always take the trouble to vote.

However if you don't like any of the candidates I feel it is valid to

submit  a blank vote because this at least shows you took the trouble to

go to the polling station and were not apathetic.

I understand where you are coming from, it's just that I feel a blank vote is a wasted vote.  I have not had the opportunity to know someone personally who I've had the opportunity to vote for, I just work it out on what they say in their literature (or not sometimes!) ... again not perfect, but that's still better than not voting.

Thibault said:

With regard to Norman's point, I do not see why people who live abroad

and have no intention of returning to the UK should have the right to

elect a UK government which has little impact on their lives.

That would be fine - if we then had a vote in the country in which we choose to live - the problem is - we don't get that - ever - unless we choose to renounce or change our nationality.  Voting in the country in which you live and pay taxes should not depend on nationality.

Norman said:

Of course if the loss of the right to vote meant  no longer having  to

pay taxes in the UK there might be some case for it , but taxation

without representation is the sort of stuff one might go to war about..

Could not have said it better

Again, Norman said:

The UK imposes taxation while refusing representation. I believe that to be an injustice, and while I do have to live with it I don't have to be happy with it or silent about my objections.

One of the attributes of free speech - and all the better for being able to be said

OK - I'm off - see you after the op!

[NormanH]

Come back doubly clear-sighted [:)] Good luck with the OP.

[idun]

Whilst I appreciated having a vote for the first twenty odd years I lived in France, I did accept that it was our choice not to live in the UK and accept the rules. Maybe the way I looked at this was because I didn't feel like I had emigrated to France and I knew I would leave at a later date.

If I had decided that France was the place I'd stay to the end of my days, then maybe I would have taken french nationality and got my french vote. It is a notion that I find hard to come to terms with, as I never looked at living in France in such a light, but reasoning this out, says it would have been the logical thing for me to do, if we had planned on never leaving.

I was thankful that I still had a say in local and EU elections in France and always did. If we were the only famille anglaise in the village, there were other etrangers who did not register to vote.

And voting blanc. I never would, if push came to shove I'd always vote for the people I felt would do least harm, and that would be my criteria. I shall never vote blanc and I will always vote.

[Clair]

[quote user="Judith"]... I feel a blank vote is a wasted vote. [/quote]

As I see it, a blank vote is the only way I have to express my dissatisfaction with the choice I am asked to make during the election process.

If, as happened for the last presidential election in France, I am asked to select one of two equally unappealing candidates, how else am I able to voice my objection?

I voted, but I could not see myself voting for either candidate, so I did not.

There has been no way of finding out how many voters chose, as I did, to express their discontent with a blank vote, but I am convinced that many, many more will see this as a opportunity to record their disapproval whilst exercising their right to vote.

[idun]

I still do not understand, and I reckon I am never unlikely to. I still cannot see the difference between a blanc vote and not voting, because it makes no difference to the result. Bit like scoring goals at a soccer match. It is only the ones that are counted that count towards the winner and the rest is yesterdays news and forgotten.

And politicans have the shortest memories on earth, they won't care if they win by 1 vote, if they are in, then they'll be happy.

[PaulT]

[quote user="idun"]

I still do not understand, and I reckon I am never unlikely to. I still cannot see the difference between a blanc vote and not voting, because it makes no difference to the result. Bit like scoring goals at a soccer match. It is only the ones that are counted that count towards the winner and the rest is yesterdays news and forgotten.

[/quote]

Think the difference, using you analagy is that the opposing football team have turned up even if they did not do anything rather than not turning up.

To me the difference is that you have gone to the polling station and then not cast a vote for a candidate, so you have made the physical effort and registered a vote, even if it is blanc, as opposed to some people who say 'I could not be bothered to vote', 'there was that film on the telly', 'it was darts night at the pub' even though the polling stations might have been open from 07:00 to 22:00

[YCCMB]

[quote user="PaulT"][quote user="idun"]

I still do not understand, and I reckon I am never unlikely to. I still cannot see the difference between a blanc vote and not voting, because it makes no difference to the result. Bit like scoring goals at a soccer match. It is only the ones that are counted that count towards the winner and the rest is yesterdays news and forgotten.

[/quote]

Think the difference, using you analagy is that the opposing football team have turned up even if they did not do anything rather than not turning up.

To me the difference is that you have gone to the polling station and then not cast a vote for a candidate, so you have made the physical effort and registered a vote, even if it is blanc, as opposed to some people who say 'I could not be bothered to vote', 'there was that film on the telly', 'it was darts night at the pub' even though the polling stations might have been open from 07:00 to 22:00

[/quote]

Although, to be fair, there are also some people who simply don't go to the polling station as their own way of registering a protest, and for whom not going is a conscious decision.