Not only finished but washed up?

[mint]

Yes, we all know that it's been staring us in the face for ages.

Poor la Belle but I for one would like to have some independent stats and a true picture.

Here is the link and perhaps some kind and smart person will make it clickable:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781636/France-putting-euro-risk-high-spending-Top-European-economist-says-country-grips-austerity-bring-currency.html

Clearly, this man is a bit more informed than a High Street retailer with no  grasp of what one could say "on the record".

[JSKS]

I would point out just one thing:

The article is in the Daily Mail - that well known admirer of all things foreign. Is there even the remotest chance that they are going to print something favourable about anything other than the Royal Family?

Which is not to say the article isn't true - even the DM can have a first.

[woolybanana]

France has brainwashed itself into believing that it is the best of all possible countries with the best of all possible systems. Now it is impossible to change without breaking the comfy breadbowls of some vested inbterest group or another.

The political elite manages the country with a view to keeping eneryone happy but not one of them has the guts to tell it as it is: corrupt, overgoverned, selfish......

The problem is that the French now believe that Europe must change by adopting the French system without understanding that it is pecisely that which will bring doan Europe and France unless they can change from within....

And I don 't see it happening.

They could start by cutting the number of deputies and senators by 35% or more, reduce the number of communes by half, at least, stop the President and deputies having money handed to them on a plate to do with as they please, reduce the fonctionnaires by 35% at least........

One could go on.

[mint]

 The last part of your post sounds just as though you were talking about the UK.

For example, cut the number of MPs by half, stop their ridiculous "expenses", reduce jobs in the public sector and, above all, stop giving them all their inflation proof pensions, etc, etc?

OK, I have put on my tin hat..................attack away!

No need to take me too seriously..................the moon might just about be made up of blue cheese; it ain't gonna happen!

Vested interests are to be found in every country on earth, n'est ce pas?

[NormanH]

The UK has brainwashed itself into believing that it is the best of all

possible countries with the best of all possible systems. Now it is

impossible to change without breaking the comfy breadbowls of some

vested inbterest group or another.

(such as the City of London)

The political elite manages the country with a view to keeping

eneryone happy but not one of them has the guts to tell it as it is:

corrupt, overgoverned, selfish......

The problem is that the ritish now believe that Europe must change.....

Easy innit?

[Pickles]

[quote user="NormanH"]The UK has brainwashed itself into believing that it is the best of all

possible countries with the best of all possible systems. Now it is

impossible to change without breaking the comfy breadbowls of some

vested inbterest group or another.

(such as the City of London)

The political elite manages the country with a view to keeping

eneryone happy but not one of them has the guts to tell it as it is:

corrupt, overgoverned, selfish......

The problem is that the British now believe that Europe must change.....[/quote]

Actually, outside of the South-East, I think that there are a lot of people who want a form of "devo-max" for their region, and see Whitehall and Westminster as part of the problem, and not necessarily part of the solution ...

[Frederick]

[quote user="JSKS"]I would point out just one thing:

The article is in the Daily Mail - that well known admirer of all things foreign. Is there even the remotest chance that they are going to print something favourable about anything other than the Royal Family?

Which is not to say the article isn't true - even the DM can have a first.[/quote]

The same comments in the DM were made on the radio this morning .BBC Today ....are they way off as well ?

And if France does come to grief financially what then ... another Cyprus ?

[woolybanana]

The difference is that France is overwhelmingly over governed and statist in every way whereas UK SEEMS (I dont live there anymore so do not have a close perspective), to be trying to reduce the overwhelmingly stifling power of the State by introducing the private sector ( there are other models). Of course there are errors but they can be corrected. This does not happen in France.

An example: the local area set up a dechetterie and have created X number of fonctionnaire to manage it at great cost. When I asked why they had not created a small company and employed the staff on private terms, they were shocked and simply siad "That is not the French way". So, to fulfil the French way, we have to pay taxes to keep these people doing a half time job on full pay and pension for the rest of their too short working lives, as I imagine that sitting on ones arse and writing bills is regarded as travail penible - after all, work induced piles are an industrial injury in France, aren't they.

Then again, there are too many crap hospitals, rather mortoirs, kept open by local pressure which are expensive, inefficient and unable to do the job of caring properly....

Need I go on?

[Val_2]

France has foncs who have in turn, more foncs to do their work and so on and on - paper pushers by the lorryload when one person should be doing the work of ten or more. I always quote the example of the Caisse Congès Payé here and this was my biggest gripe throughout our running a business in France - why do you need such an organisation to pay people their holiday pay when the boss can just pay them it direct, plus they charge a fair bit again for sending out the pay cheques so the poor old artisan/firm is still paying out hand over fist for an unesessary need.  The humungous amount of wasted money in this country is staggering when it could be put to better use by helping those in business by lower charges and being able to create more jobs instead of paying huge salaries to foncs who only work for half of their lives and then live the fat cat life as retirees whilst poor old ordinary Joe public has to work till he drops dead especially farmers and artisans just to make ends meet.

[woolybanana]

Let us talk about the 29 people who lost their lives at La Faute sur Mer as a result of Hurricane Xynthia. What is absolutely clear from the daily evidence at the trial is that their deaths were directly caused by bureaucratic inefficiencies of different types, as well as a dishonest public officials. Which latter is caused by the inabilty of the State in some form or other to police itself.

Washed up? Rotten to the bloody core and taking Europe down with it. Significantly, the biggest supporter of France in Europe is Italy and the level of rottenness there is, well, humungeous (always wanted to use that word, whatever it means.)

[Pickles]

[quote user="Val_2"]why do you need such an organisation to pay people their holiday pay when the boss can just pay them it direct, plus they charge a fair bit again for sending out the pay cheques so the poor old artisan/firm is still paying out hand over fist for an unesessary need.[/quote]

I think I know the answer to that question: the state doesn't trust business owners to act legally, so has imposed a state-run agency to do it for them. Naturally, this does nothing to address those businesses which undercut legitimate businesses by employing people "on the black" - they don't have to bother with such extraneous expenses. I get the feeling that if you run a business or own property in France, the entrenched view in the administration is that you are therefore a capitalist and must be trying to exploit people in some way.

There is a lot wrong in the UK: some of the problems are similar to France, other aspects entirely different. There "feels" to be less persecution of business in the UK than in France.

[idun]

I would love to know the 'trough' figures for the UK and France. ie MP's and Ministers, not above ministerial level, their salaries and expenses.

I will be astounded if the figure is not far far higher in France. And yet, as with many things in this life, I could be wrong about that.

[Val_2]

Pickles you are right. Another example of no trust here is when the RSI/URSSAF send out the forecast for your next coming year's cotisations based on payments made two years earlier. Hard luck if your takings are down in the year when these demands are sent out to be paid and trying to proove you don't have the money to pay them because you didn't have it to put by the year previously just dosn't wash. The whole b***dy system here for running any sort of business is shambolic, antiquated and not fair and needs to be brought into the 21st century with the "its been done this way since Methusala was a lad so we have no need to change" it attitude. One thing about France though is that you cannot easily go bankrupt because it suits you,it just dosn't work that way and if you do decide to go down that route,you lose just about everything you own and for many years too!

[PaulT]

WB wrote:

' whereas UK SEEMS (I dont live there anymore so do not have a close perspective), to be trying to reduce the overwhelmingly stifling power of the State by introducing the private sector'

Until I retired I worked for the NHS. It has pay bands and a particular job would warrant a particular band. A cleaner would be on band 1 which starts at £14,294 and if their performance after on year was satisfactory it would rise to £14,653 and after 2 years if still satisfactory rise to £15,013.

Now to me those pay rates are not high and no doubt enable a family to claim all sorts of benefits from the Government and basically other taxpayers.

So how does the public sector help. Well, the services are tendered for. If an in-house bid is submitted it is passed on the mandatory pay rates. The public sector bids will be based on lower pay rates and will normally win the contract. Thus, the workers will claim more in benefits from the Government than a directly employed NHS cleaner.

The NHS trust will show that it has reduced costs by contracting out.

The Government will show it is paying out more benefits to the cleaner now employed by the private sector.