Winter fuel tax for expats here.

[Jonzjob]

Here is an atricle from the Connexion

http://www.connexionfrance.com/winter-fuel-allowance-uk-expat-france-temperature-overseas-tropical-islands-15000-view-article.html

It beggars belief that people who are SUPPOSED to be running a country can be so bleedin stupid!!!!! How on Earth can they link the DOMTOMs in with mainland France? Last Feb we had 2 weeks of sub zero temps, often -11ºC with a lot of cold weather either side of that and each year seems to be colder than the last. It will be interesting to find out hpw many dozen British expats are living in the DOMTOMs?

I have already signed this along with my OH

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/52121

[idun]

Jonzjob, you could have moved to above the arctic circle in Northern Sweden, or somewhere 'hot'. I simply would stop this payment for anyone not living in the UK. We should not even have civil servants wasting their time working this out.

Would we get the french equivalent if our income said that we were entitled????? We only get french pensions now and live in the UK. I would doubt they'd be so soft.

[andyh4]

Idun

 

you forget that the WFA was introduced as a recompense (sop) when the Government failed to increase the OAP one year.  The benefit for the UK being that the pension would be linked to inflation but as a separate payment the wfa need not be - and usually has not increased.

 

Therefore the WFA can be argued to be in lieu of an annual increment to the OAP which would be payable throughout the EU. 

 

Would it make more sense to abolish it and replace it by an increase in pension?  Probably yes, but then as above it becomes part of the index linked payments and imposes and increasing demand on tax payers over the years. 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]It beggars belief that people who are SUPPOSED to be running a country can be so bleedin stupid!!!!![/quote]Not stupid, just the UK government trying to find justification to avoid paying it by any tenuous and dishonourable means possible.

Remember there are lies, damn lies, and statistics !

It's going to take a few more  than 3168 signatures to change anything !

[Jonzjob]

3169 with yours and every house has to start with the first brick.

[YCCMB]

A quick search of INSEE whose most recent figures are from 2010, and a bit of adding up, shows that currently the number of signatories to this petition exceeds the total number of retired immigrants resident in the French DOMs by about 600. There are, for precision's sake, 2581 retired immigrants in total in The DOMs. I'd hazard a guess that probably none of them are British.

It's a fair point, however, that they ARE part of France...... Still, look on the bright side. If only Italy had made more of an effort to hang onto Ethiopia...

[YCCMB]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Idun

 

you forget that the WFA was introduced as a recompense (sop) when the Government failed to increase the OAP one year.  The benefit for the UK being that the pension would be linked to inflation but as a separate payment the wfa need not be - and usually has not increased.

 

Therefore the WFA can be argued to be in lieu of an annual increment to the OAP which would be payable throughout the EU. 

 

Would it make more sense to abolish it and replace it by an increase in pension?  Probably yes, but then as above it becomes part of the index linked payments and imposes and increasing demand on tax payers over the years. 

[/quote]

There have been various other changes to pension payments to prevent increasing demand (or, at least, to soften the blow) on taxpayers over the years. These have included such things as increasing the retirement age, so that subsequent generations have to fork out for the winter fuel allowance for the current ones, as well as waiting till they're 104 to draw their own pensions. If one or two pensioners had simply bitten the bullet and accepted that the existing legislation meant they weren't "entitled" to WFA, then there would have been no need for those legitimately claiming it to start petitions on the back of a story in the equivalent of the newsletter that Richard Briers used to print on the Gestetner in his bedroom in "Ever Decreasing Circles"

[woolybanana]

Can one still claim this WFA if resident in France? If so, how, svp?

[nomoss]

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment-you-have-not-received-it-before

We didn't claim as we did not meet the criteria requested on the form for claiming from abroad to establish a genuine link with the UK, but I notice that that form no longer exists.

We don't really need it badly enough to waste time trying to claim it, and we've been screwed badly enough by the UK system in the past to not be overly bothered.[8-)]

 

[Hereford]

Well: I have just put in a claim for mine. It is not certain yet that it will be stopped for those of us in France.

In my case my husband was receiving it in full before we left the UK but I was "under age".  This means that although I would have automatically got it if we were still in the UK (i.e. half of the full WFA each) that has not happened.

Should something happen to OH I would not automatically receive this allowance so I am claiming now so as to establish my right to it. There will be no monetary benefit.

It was, as has been said earlier, given to pensioners instead of an increase in the basic OAP so I have absolutely no qualms about claiming it. The form is simple but the online one does not seem to have been updated to cater for this year yet (or it had not last week) so I have emailed and asked for a form.

Mrs H

[Chancer]

WFA should be stopped to those living in France.

From what I read the criteria was that the average temp including the domtoms made it higher than England, well even me living in the frozen North of France couldnt say that it was actually colder here, it seems to shadow the UK, when its hot its hotter and when its cold its colder, the average I suspect is higher.

But only the clinically stupid like myself leave the UK and choose a colder region of France, even then I reckon anything north of london is colder than I, but most of you lucky lot live in the warm temperate south, even without the domtoms I think that living in mainland France overall means that you have less need of the WFA than those living in the UK.

I think it should only be paid to those living in the UK and not even to those that spend it on going to warmer climes like Malta or Spain to avoid the winter.

that would also remove the why should Italy get it but not France argument.

Still at least having had a look I see that the Connexions is still as bad as it was when it used to arrive unsolicited into my mailbox.

[Jonzjob]

We have paid the same taxes as those living now in the U.K. so I don't see why we should not get it and as has been said, it is lou of a pension rise. The winters way down here over the past 9 years have been colder than we ever had in Gloucestershire, shorter yes but colder.

One of my hobbies in england was flying radio controlled model gliders and to do that I used to stand on the edge of the Cotswold escarpment through the winter days and I have all the cold weather gear I needed there, but that same kit here and we go for a winter walk I get frozen clod because of the lower temps.

The DOMTOMs should be treated as the DOMTOMs, easy to do. Then let's see what the average is!

[Judith]

[quote user="Hereford"]Well: I have just put in a claim for mine. It is not certain yet that it will be stopped for those of us in France.

In my case my husband was receiving it in full before we left the UK but I was "under age".  This means that although I would have automatically got it if we were still in the UK (i.e. half of the full WFA each) that has not happened.

Should something happen to OH I would not automatically receive this allowance so I am claiming now so as to establish my right to it. There will be no monetary benefit.

It was, as has been said earlier, given to pensioners instead of an increase in the basic OAP so I have absolutely no qualms about claiming it. The form is simple but the online one does not seem to have been updated to cater for this year yet (or it had not last week) so I have emailed and asked for a form.

Mrs H

[/quote]

Exactly the same reason why I claimed when it became possible...

[Judith]

[quote user="Chancer"]but most of you lucky lot live in the warm temperate south,

[/quote]

It might be warm here - now - but the winters down here in the south, are definitely colder than they were in London, or even in Yorkshire - where I spent my youth ... we even had burst pipes last year after a long deep freeze ... , and that we never had in the UK ...

[mint]

Oh, Judith, you live in the effete SOUTH!

You want to come and live here in the Dordogne.  It's nothing for me to put on all my ski clothes and that's the base layer consisting of vest and longjohns, plus jumper and ski trousers (OK, admittedly not my salopettes), hat and gauntlets in the winter and that's just to walk the dog![:-))] 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]We have paid the same taxes as those living now in the U.K. so I don't see why we should not get it and as has been said, it is lou of a pension rise. The winters way down here over the past 9 years have been colder than we ever had in Gloucestershire, shorter yes but colder.

[/quote]

Pensioners - in general- now have the highest disposable incomes of any group in the UK. Can you explain why, when just about every other group in the UK has been financially disadvantaged by the current economic situation, pensioners (or any subgroup therein) should remain untouched?

One thing is certain. there will come a time, soon, when all this infighting about WFA will see it being either means tested or withdrawn.

And if, indeed, it is in lieu of a pension rise...how come people over 60 can claim it, when in fact they haven't reached state pension age?

[KathyF]

Nail on the head as usual, Betty. If they now means test child benefit via the tax system, I don't see the WFA as a universal benefit surviving indefinitely.

[powerdesal]

'' Pensioners - in general- now have the highest disposable incomes of any group in the UK. Can you explain why, when just about every other group in the UK has been financially disadvantaged by the current economic situation, pensioners (or any subgroup therein) should remain untouched? ''

Assuming the above statement is true, that disposable income is certainly not based on the UK state pension. It is due to the prudence of the generations of pensioners who saved for their old age, took out private pensions, made sensible investments - all whilst working and paying the mandatory insurance premiums demanded by the Govt National Insurance scheme.

They should remain untouched because they made the effort with their own money.

Sensible forward planning should not be penalised.

[YCCMB]

Why not? It is being for the rest of the population!

[Quillan]

[quote user="powerdesal"]'' Pensioners - in general- now have the highest disposable incomes of any group in the UK. Can you explain why, when just about every other group in the UK has been financially disadvantaged by the current economic situation, pensioners (or any subgroup therein) should remain untouched? '' Assuming the above statement is true, that disposable income is certainly not based on the UK state pension. It is due to the prudence of the generations of pensioners who saved for their old age, took out private pensions, made sensible investments - all whilst working and paying the mandatory insurance premiums demanded by the Govt National Insurance scheme. They should remain untouched because they made the effort with their own money. Sensible forward planning should not be penalised.[/quote]

And that group don't need the WFA.

[powerdesal]

'' Why not? It is being for the rest of the population! ''

I presume this questions relates to my comment about sensible forward planning.

Please explain how sensible forward planning is being penalised for the rest of the population.

[YCCMB]

Sensible forward planning is being penalised in any number of ways:

Interest rates for savers are at an all-time low, affecting anyone who is attempting to save for their retirement - or for anything else, for that matter.

Taxpayers who planned for their retirement on the basis that it would happen at a certain age are finding that, in fact, they will not be able to retire for five, six, or even more years than they originally planned.

Taxpayers who had children believing that they would receive some support from the state in the form of child allowance have had that benefit withdrawn based on their income. (and please don't give me the "well, if they have that much money they

don't need it" because surely that applies to many pensioners, too...)

Taxpayers who had children in the late 1980's and beyond couldn't plan for having to support their children financially through higher education, because they received about two years' notice of the imposition of tuition fees.

The advantages derived from final-salary pension schemes by many of today's retirees have been withdrawn and are not open to the majority of future retirees, ensuring that if they want to (and, indeed, now they're compelled to) join a company pension scheme to plan for their futures, they will be unlikely to enjoy a payout of anything like that enjoyed by today's pensioners.

Oh, and try to talk "sensible forward planning" with almost anyone under 30 who has a £25K (or more) student debt, a pension scheme that can't promise them much before they're in their 80's (if then), the possibility of owning their own home IF they can raise a minimum of 25% of the deposit (and more like 40% if they want a half-decent interest rate on the repayments). Tell someone in that situation that you're a badly-off pensioner who shouldn't be penalised, and if they don't burst into hysterical laughter, it's because they are too polite. In fact, mention it to their hard-working parents, who are paying taxes and supporting them AND pensioners from their own taxes, AND trying to do their own "sensible forward planning".

[Rabbie]

I must declare an interest here. I am a pensioner and a recipient of WFA so you know where I am coming from.  I am not in receipt of a final salary pension and so come into the same category category as those who have not yet retired. My pension is funded by my contributions and those of my last employer. Previous to that I was self employed so had to plan ahead for my retirement albeit on a voluntary basis.

Let's not forget that any student loan debt still outstanding is written off after 30 years IIRC which means that they will have about 20  years without any more repayments to build up their pension fund. With regard to child allowance I do not find it unreasonable that people earning over £60,000 pa  no longer receive this. Most of us managed to bring up our children well on much lower incomes even allowing for inflation. It is not compulsory to put your child into private education - there are some excellent state schools.

But yes I do agree with YCCMB that benefits such as WFA should be means tested and given to those who need them. The welfare system needs a critical examination and sensible reforms implemented not just knee-jerk reaction to whatever is in the headlines of the popular press. There is so much myth being propagated on this subject that is hard to know exactly what needs to be done. What we need are facts.

[Quillan]

It will go though won't it in 2017 when everyone will get a flat rate that includes everything?

I also agree with Rabbie in that things like WFA should be means tested. There are many who have been, to pinch Browns words, prudent and are better off than those just on a state pension. There should definitely be a limit on income at which this applies and the £60k cap might be alright for child allowance but does it need to be as high for those living on a pension?

To be honest I can't see any couple going bankrupt over £200 per household. I do remember a few years back when they interviewed some people for The Money Program that one or two claimed that not receiving the payment here in France meant the difference between staying here and going back to the UK. One of the people was an ex copper and was on final salary pension so it seemed to me bad planning on his behalf if not getting his £200 meant going home.

[idun]

I would like to say that words fail me about some of this stuff, but they do not. Which words I can use on here, are however, going to be harder to chose, in consequence I shall probably say little.

Are older people usually so whingeing about things? And so, what I perceive as, greedy? IF so, I hopes someone shoots me before I get much older.

I feel for the young, and as I have said on many occasions on here, am ashamed of the legacy of my  and the immediate previous generation.

I suppose what offends me most, is that expression, I have worked hard all my life......... as if............. so, there we have it, no other generation worked as hard as this one?!

And the french pension, well that is very difficult to work out. The minimum that they say at the moment is 787€ a month, less cotisations. However, I doubt like any other of their figures it is attainable. AND then you need the exchange rate, remember in 2000 the €/£ was 1.64 on average, so which do you use, if that one, then the french pension in hand is slightly less than most people get from the state in the UK. If you use a more recent one, then ofcourse it will make the pension seem like more, but even if the exchange rate reachers parity or goes to 1.7 it will not change the amount dished out by the french.  And if you see it based on 25 years previous salaries, well that is nonsense, it is based on the plafond assurance vieillesse and then halved.