Théière Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 [quote user="powerdesal"]I am not relying on the guesswork of forum members but rather am asking for opinions.[/quote]Ok, opinion. ditch the inefficient old Rayburn, move into the 21st century with super efficient wood burning and hot water and get a normal cooker.Walltherm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Where I was coming from was it's good you have been talking to them direct and to an installer but you're in France and what you need to do is talk to somebody who sells them in France. Now this is only a guess and I have not looked very hard in to this but I noted that the Rayburns being sold by the company I gave a link to have different numbers. Now I understand that a different number can mean a hundred and one things but I noticed they didn't sell your model. Now I don't know why that is but I wondered if thats because they make both open and pressurised systems and that the ones advertised on their website are for use in France and meet the regulations for installation here. I don't have time to look further nor am I interested to be honest but if I could find this basic information and just clicked on the first thing I found then clearly there is a lot of scope to investigate further.I see you have been asking the same questions all over the net. I tried a search of Installing a Rayburn 370 SFW in France and all your posts came up. [;-)] Did you speak to Wamsler, I know you looked at them? They do units for Europe so I assume they have designs that meet French standards. I quite like the look of their cookers, better than Rayburn I thought (thats just me) but don't know about build quality. What about an Aga, they sell them in France, I thought they came with a back boiler? Have you considered a French cooker with boiler, I am sure people like Godin make them, they must be designed to meet French specifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Q, the Rayburn model numbers are, as far as I know, the same in France as in UK, ie the 355SFW is the same. The other models ( all SFW ) just indicate different size of output.The 370SFW was released by Rayburn in June last year and is the highest output solid fuel / wood unit they make. Rayburn France have told me that they expect it to be available in France later this year.The stove seller that you linked to does not list the 370SFW , with the 355SFW being the biggest listed.We did seriously consider a Wamsler but eventually changed our minds, primarily because we could not find a Wamsler dealer who had one in stock that we could look at. We were not prepared to order on the basis of a photograph and description. The dealers were equally not prepared to get one unless it was against a firm order.Another point against the Wamsler is that the boiler is actually too powerful for our demand. It does have a 'wind up' firegrate that could mitigate the output issue but we still wanted to see one.As far as I know AGA do not do a solid fuel version with a boiler. It's a bit academic anyway as Mrs PD will not consider an AGA under any circumstances - personal preference.I researched French manufacturers and, as far as I could see, none of them produce a central heating cooker with the required boiler output. Most are in fact wood fired cookers only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Théière ,Yes the Walltherm is a very efficient unit, it also has the right boiler output and it's cheaper than the Rayburn but...............you can't cook on it and, because of that we have no place to install it.TBH, if we are going to use wood for central heating it makes sense to also use the heat for cooking as well.Another minor factor is that we can foresee a day in the not too distant future when our existing LPG fired range cooker will need replacing due to its age and ''infirmity'' so to speak. As our kitchen and its granite work tops are designed around the size of a range cooker it seems logical to replace it with a cooker of the same size, ie a Rayburn at 900mm long (ish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 OK you didn't tell me they were in France as well.http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/Prodin/Export/FRANCE/Rayburn/Rayburn%20345W%20inst%2010-09%20EINS%20515584.pdfNotice it is called the 345W, I have no idea if this is the older model but the picture looks the same. The hot water supply is different from the UK version of the manual in that it is a closed circuit and the pipework is a little different. The CH side is the same as the UK with a header tank (don't forget you need a metal tank and ballcock because of venting, best sourced from the UK?). I would suggest this is the pipework layout you need. They use a mix of 28mm, 22mm and 16mm pipework looking at the drawing. A quick look on the Brico Depot website reveals that a 2M length of 28mm copper pipe costs 20,80 Euros (part number 512656). It ain't going to be cheap mate. Don't forget you need to braise the hot water side as well as it is under pressure. You may well be able to get away with soldering on the radiator side but then if you have the kit to do the hot water side then why not braise them as well, belt and braces at it where. You may well need a new hot water tank as well (get a combined one for the summer). Mind you if you're going this route why not stick a panel on the roof and go for a twin coil tank for the summer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 The 345W is a wood fired only Rayburn, as opposed to solid fuel / wood.All the Rayburn models look the same more or less ...http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/products/rayburn-300-seriesThe French installation manual is very very similar to the English one apart from the ( IMHO ) very strange piping diagram.The open vented 28mm copper primary circuit to the F & E tank is the same of course but the idea of having a heat leak radiator ( radiateur de décharge ) with a motorised valve on it is certainly contrary to the normal safety aspects of a gravity circuit as protection in the event of a power failure. Whilst I appreciate the fact that it is power closed / spring open its use relies on the proper operation of the opening function after power loss.My interpretation of a gravity safety circuit is that there should be nothing at all to impede the flow, that's why heat leak rads do not normally have valves like TRVs. Inlet and outlet must be open all the time. Similarly it is why the inlet to a heat leak is always at the top with the outlet at the bottom, to assist in the gravity circuit.The heat leak rad shown is 3kw minimum, this is a huge radiator. To get a 3kw T22 double panel / double convector would mean 600mm high and approaching 1800mm long, that's big by anyones bathroom standard. A new style T33 would be shorter but they are 160mm thick !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and are not that readily available - yet.Convention states that the heat leak capacity should be not less than 10% of the boiler output. In the case of the 345W that would be 900w, Some say 20%, ie 1.8kw which is more realistic I believe.However, given that radiator outputs are quoted at a delta T of 50 degrees, based on an inlet of 70 deg and an outlet of 20 deg, should a boil situation arise the actual delta T would be 80 deg not 50 and the rad heat discharge would be considerably more.My design has 17% heat leak at Delta T of 50. I may in the end increase that to about 20%.The existing electric only DHW cylinder will be retained for the moment.Regarding brazing the copper joints, I will be using compression fittings instead. I have more confidence in my ability to fit those than to adequately and safely braze joints.UK plumbing advice tells me that modern high temperature plastic F & E tanks are OK, fitted with metal ballcock of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 [quote user="powerdesal"]The 345W is a wood fired only Rayburn, as opposed to solid fuel / wood..[/quote]So why does the French installation instructions show it with radiators as well?I am not too sure about all the other stuff your going on about but if I were installing this, and it is not beyond me as it looks quite simple (and I can braze and solder), I would follow their instructions to the letter. Why, well the reasons are rather obvious, if anything goes wrong your insurers will inspect the work and may not pay out if it is not installed as per the instructions. We all know they like taking the money but hate parting with it. Secondly the people who wrote the instructions and you might find if they are translated that they are different to the UK version, designed and worked with this product for many years, researched French regulations etc and therefore must know what they are doing. Personally I would do the pipework, mount the radiators, basically do everything except connect it to the cooker. Then I would get one of their approved engineers to check my work and connect up the cooker.There is lots of stuff on the web to back up my next comment which is do not use compression fitting. Soldered (and brazed fittings) handle stress, vibration and pressure (your main concern in a pressurised system) much better than compression joints which can fail over time (by that I mean leak or worse). If you clean every joint with wire wool, use plenty of flux and only touch the fitting when you open the packed and use it then it really is very simple. You can always practice on a bit of old pipe but just make sure it is clean. Don't forget to buy a fire retardant mat to place behind joints in a restricted space especially near wood.Still at the end of the day it's up to you, all anyone can do is offer advice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Q,''So why does the French installation instructions show it with radiators as well?''Are you cracking up Q ?The 345W is wood fired, ie the boiler. It has no relevance to having or not having radiators. It simply means it can't / shouldn't be used with coal products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 So for you there is no difference as you will be using wood. [;-)] Follow the instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 [quote user="powerdesal"]Théière ,Yes the Walltherm is a very efficient unit, it also has the right boiler output and it's cheaper than the Rayburn but...............you can't cook on it and, because of that we have no place to install it.TBH, if we are going to use wood for central heating it makes sense to also use the heat for cooking as well.Another minor factor is that we can foresee a day in the not too distant future when our existing LPG fired range cooker will need replacing due to its age and ''infirmity'' so to speak. As our kitchen and its granite work tops are designed around the size of a range cooker it seems logical to replace it with a cooker of the same size, ie a Rayburn at 900mm long (ish)[/quote]Ok understood, I have been round friends house when the reverse was true, massive waste of heat and unbearable kitchen temperature in summer. Nice to be able to cook without being cooked!But space is an issue so follow your ideas, interesting thread and links from Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araucaria Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 [quote user="powerdesal"] ..... It's a bit academic anyway as Mrs PD will not consider an AGA under any circumstances - personal preference.... [/quote]Ssssshh - you'd better not tell her that AGA and Rayburn are the same company nowadays.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 [quote user="Araucaria"][quote user="powerdesal"] ..... It's a bit academic anyway as Mrs PD will not consider an AGA under any circumstances - personal preference.... [/quote]Ssssshh - you'd better not tell her that AGA and Rayburn are the same company nowadays....[/quote]And Falcon. Very nice by the way, nearly bought one but it was too big. When I win the Loto. [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Yes they are the same company, but they make different types and looks of models.Mrs PD does like the look of the AGA, it has nothing to do with who makes what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Using one rad as a heat sink to dump excess heat is the classic (old) way of installing gravity-fed CH/DHW boiler systems, where the DHW is gravity only: and the CH is pumped.: later versions, of course used pumped primary and secondary tooHowever, why not consider a bi-Fuel ballon and dump any excess heat therein? A tank stat on the ballon could operate a diverter valve, so if the tank is to max temp, the diverter valve could then dump excess heat to a selected rad (usually the bathroom).Now, with a tri-fuel ballon, one can add solar source hot water too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 [quote user="Gluestick"]Now, with a tri-fuel ballon, one can add solar source hot water too![/quote]Dave posted a link to useful site for tri-fuel ballon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Further to my original post(s) about getting a Rayburn.I am grateful for all the comments ( including the ''elderly' bit ). As a result of the comments Mrs PD and I have had a serious ''pros and cons'' discussion about our plans, these included a realist re-appraisal of all aspects, installation costs, running costs, future work load ( age thing again ), convenience etc etc.Yes, it would be nice to have a wood burning CH cooker, a bit like turning back the clock in a way but.............The cost from Rayburn France is likely to be very very considerable, based on their mark up for other Rayburn models. Very possibly approaching 10K + assuming they do in fact start to market the 370SFW this year. There is also the 'minor' problem that the nearest Rayburn installer is over 100km from us.Getting the cooker into the house is, because of the layout, a major issue whoever does it, requiring ( IMO ) some fancy crane-age.The add on costs of a suitable F + E tank is substantial, if the requirement is for an open vented system, which I can't see any way round.Running costs would be cheaper than alternatives but summer cooking would still require a gas or electric cooker, thus degrading the overall running cost savings.We have considered the age thing and, whilst not considered to be a problem now or hopefully for some years who knows ?????Convenience-wise, a switch on and forget system is worth a certain financial downside.Town gas is a non-starter, it's just not available.GPL is, as far as I can tell, not viable because of fuel costs.Pellets are not viable on the grounds of installation, pellet storage and running costs.Basically it leaves oil. I have always said oil is a 'no-go' because of ever rising fuel costs but I really think we are going to have to bite that bullet.Having, for good or evil, decided to pursue the oil burning route we are now having to make decisions. What brand ?I know that the current state of opinions is ''don't buy from UK'' but it does appear that there are some extremely good oil boilers there which can be supplied with burner nozzles for French 32sec heating oil.I would appreciate comments from the forum regarding the installation rules for French oil burning installations. For instance :-Oil tank positioning, is above ground, external, double walled ( ie integral bunding ) acceptable in France.?Will an oil company supply for an installation with a boiler of UK manufacture ?Are external, wall mounted boilers acceptable in France ?I a presently waiting to be contacted by Local oil CH installation companies who will be asked about installation, commissioning and routine servicing of a non-French manufactured unit.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassis Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Would it be muddying the waters if I were to mention bi-fuel wood and oil CH boiler? We use wood when the temperatures have dropped definitively to winter levels and oil in the shoulder period or if it's mild, when we just need a background heating for an hour or two, first thing in morning or in the evening. There was one installed when we moved here (dated from the 80's) and we replaced it with the same type of thing about 4 years ago - in fact we kept the same oil burner, just had it plumbed into the new boiler. It's an open system with header tank. The wood burner will also last on low burn overnight if you want it to. PS - there are strict regs regarding safe siting and installation of oil tanks in case of leakage http://www.roth-france.fr/regles-securite-et-installation.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneySuckleDreams Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Our neighbours in the farm over the wood have a big boiler (Polish I believe considering they asked if we could translate the instructions) that powers two large houses. They powered it with peach stones last year and this year it's olive stones. We are close to Spain so I guess the delivery costs are smaller than living up north but I like the alternative thinking involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 [quote user="powerdesal"] Having, for good or evil, decided to pursue the oil burning route we are now having to make decisions. What brand ?I know that the current state of opinions is ''don't buy from UK'' but it does appear that there are some extremely good oil boilers there which can be supplied with burner nozzles for French 32sec heating oil.I would appreciate comments from the forum regarding the installation rules for French oil burning installations.[/quote] If one amortises life expectancy over installation cost; and includes projected cost of oil, then rarely do such as GSH et alThe last time I checked this out (and it was confirmed by our then member Opel Fruit), all that was necessary, post installation, was for an accredited French Chaufagiste to commission the boiler, by setting the oil feed inlet pressures.However, it could be argued, a UK boiler could breach the terms of your assurance contrat, as it was not certified in France.However Two: it seems a majority of boilers (Gas and Oil) sold in the UK, now come from France, Italy (Lamborghini) and Germany (Weisman).Therefore I would search the type approvals before purchase. Oil boilers are rare in the UK now, which is why they tend to be imported from (e.g.France) where they are pretty ubiquitous.[quote] For instance :-Oil tank positioning, is above ground, external, double walled ( ie integral bunding ) acceptable in France.?Will an oil company supply for an installation with a boiler of UK manufacture ?[/quote]Have PMd you concerning oil tanks and bunds etc.[quote]Are external, wall mounted boilers acceptable in France ?I a presently waiting to be contacted by Local oil CH installation companies who will be asked about installation, commissioning and routine servicing of a non-French manufactured unit.Steve[/quote]Outside boiler location in outhouses, garages, even cellars, are pretty common: ergo it must be OK.Servicing: it is only a simple matter of checking out the oil inlet pressure and adjusting where necessary and examining the flame colour to ensure optimal Stochiometric Ratio is OK: this normally backed up by use of a gas analyser, measuring Co, Co2, and unburned Hydrocarbons. The better units now also print out an analysis report using the built in thermal printer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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