Robbery !

[Weegie]

Contact ANTS with details of the situation including any reference the Gendarmes may have given you?

https://ants.gouv.fr/Contacter-l-ANTS/Contactez-nous

[nomoss]

Did you advise the gendarmerie and the préfecture that the CG had also been stolen?

See HERE

I don't know how long you owned the car, but when we received the CG's for vehicles we registered after 2012, they came together with a letter containing a five-number code.

The letter said that this code could be required as supplementary authentication for online procedures regarding the vehicle.

I wonder if you have such a letter, whether the number was asked for by ANTS, and also hope that you didn't leave it in the car with the CG.

[Gardian]

Thanks MacOnion - certainly a thought, although from what I’m about to say, it may be unnecessary.

Nomoss - I think that you’ve probably confirmed my suspicions. I’d forgotten about that 5 digit code and after rooting around, I found it amongst the paperwork from when the car was bought in 2014.

When I entered the code it said that the code and the vehicle registration didn’t match !

The conclusion would seem to be that the car was sold on to an unsuspecting and innocent party by an ‘individual’. The innocent party has re-registered the car and received a new carte grise & code (they arrive together because I’ve just received both for the replacement car which I’ve just bought).

This might all be rubbish of course, but it sounds pretty convincing and certainly plausible. I mean, if you were a bad guy and thought that you could get quite a few €k’s for a car that you had nicked and was probably worth €10k or so ...... then you’d do it, wouldn’t you?

[Gardian]

Nomoss ........

Oh and I forgot to say, your link HERE does I think confirm all the above.

I reported it to the Gendarmerie and have the document that was produced the following day.

I notified my insurer within an hour or two of the theft and have all their documentation to complete.

I didn’t tell the prefecture because it never crossed my mind to do so and neither the gendarmerie nor my insurer told me to!

Naively, I thought that one or both of the above would do that. Very daft of me.

Provided that this ‘oversight’ doesn’t invalidate my insurance, this could be quite exciting, but not for the innocent party who may well have a nasty surprise heading his way.

Thank you both for your suggestions.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gardian"]Thanks MacOnion - certainly a thought, although from what I’m about to say, it may be unnecessary.

Nomoss - I think that you’ve probably confirmed my suspicions. I’d forgotten about that 5 digit code and after rooting around, I found it amongst the paperwork from when the car was bought in 2014.

When I entered the code it said that the code and the vehicle registration didn’t match !

The conclusion would seem to be that the car was sold on to an unsuspecting and innocent party by an ‘individual’. The innocent party has re-registered the car and received a new carte grise & code (they arrive together because I’ve just received both for the replacement car which I’ve just bought).

This might all be rubbish of course, but it sounds pretty convincing and certainly plausible. I mean, if you were a bad guy and thought that you could get quite a few €k’s for a car that you had nicked and was probably worth €10k or so ...... then you’d do it, wouldn’t you?[/quote]

I have also seen your subsequent post.

I don't know about the law in France, but in the UK, if someone buys stolen goods, they still remain the property of the person from whom they are stolen, who can reclaim them. They should have verified the identity of whoever sold it to them, in France as well as in the UK.

If you pass on the information to your car insurance company asap, I think they will pursue the car when they can locate it, as they should have access to the details of any buyer.

You should also consider whether you can get any legal help through the Protection Juridique possibly covered by your car or house insurance.

[idun]

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F21138

That link should be live and it is the site I use for most french official information.

So have I misread this link? Because I cannot see where it tells you to inform the prefecture?

Incidentally, don't you keep copies of all your paperwork that is in the car at home? That was always one of my fears that the car would be taken and I had no paperwork.

And that 'code', I would suppose that many lose it and it is perhaps far too easy to get a new one.

[nomoss]

[quote user="idun"]

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F21138

That link should be live and it is the site I use for most french official information.

So have I misread this link? Because I cannot see where it tells you to inform the prefecture?

Incidentally, don't you keep copies of all your paperwork that is in the car at home? That was always one of my fears that the car would be taken and I had no paperwork.

And that 'code', I would suppose that many lose it and it is perhaps far too easy to get a new one.

[/quote]

I'm guessing that the link I posted reflected the experiences of the matriculation agency regarding the requirements of most insurance companies.

I think it is good advice. Although apparently not legally necessary it

might ensure a stolen vehicle is not illegally registered before the

bureaucratic system has eventually put it on a stolen list.

I noticed that your Service-Public link said:

"L'enregistrement du véhicule au fichier des objets et véhicules signalés

(FOVeS) et au système d'immatriculation des véhicules (SIV) n'est

effectué qu'une fois la plainte déposée auprès des forces de l'ordre.

Toutes les opérations d'immatriculation concernant ce véhicule sont

alors bloquées."

That doesn't seem to have worked in this instance, possibly because the time delay was known to the thieves.

[idun]

Yes, I had looked at that other link, but I would not have gone chasing such information after looking at the Service Public web site, I always 'depended' on that being correct.

And the Service Public site is the one I would state when in touch with officialdom.

[nomoss]

This link

seems to confirm that a stolen car remains the property of the real owner, or

that of the insurance company once they have paid compensation.

https://www.avisondemand.fr/juridique-auto/achat-voiture-volee-consequences.html

 Maybe you

should let your insurance claim proceed without offering the company your

discovery that the car has apparently been re-registered, as, if your

insurers haven't yet paid out, they could still recover the car, and return it

to you in a damaged condition, which would mean a fresh claim, as well as your

having two similar cars. They are unlikely, as you mentioned, to refuse to pay

out on the grounds that you didn’t report it stolen to the prefecture if this

condition is not mentioned in your policy.

My insurers

(Groupama) don’t require advising the prefecture, but they do require, in any

case of theft, in order to absolve the owner in case of accident :-

Dans les 2 jours

ouvrés, vous devez faire votre déclaration à votre assureur auto. Surtout, vous

devez lui remettre une copie du procès-verbal de plainte ainsi que différents

documents comme la carte grise, le certificat de non gage, la facture d’achat…

(si) Vous êtes

assuré contre le vol

: il est impératif de respecter le délai des 2 jours ouvrés pour effectuer la

déclaration même si vous n'êtes pas en mesure de réunir dans ce délai tous les

documents éxigés. 30 jours sont ensuite généralement nécessaires pour vous

proposer une indemnité, si le véhicule n’est pas retrouvé.

Perhaps you

should check, if you have not done so already, what your car policy document

acually says to do in case of theft, and check that you did what is required.

Maybe it would be worth getting some

advice from a decent lawyer.

My thought is

that the car has probably already left the country, been broken or won’t be

seen again, and the new “owner” is fictitious.

Someone

selling a stolen car in France would have all the necessary details on the CG

if they have it, except the 5 digit code, but, as Idun said, there is probably

some way around that in case it were lost.

 

Someone buying

innocently would easily be able to put the car in their name if the Certificat

de Cession has the correct info’.

 

Someone

putting it falsely in their name would only need a utility bill to substantiate

their address. Not much of a check.

 

I don’t recall

having asked to see the ID of any private person selling a car to me here, and

not sure of a French person would, but it would certainly be a good idea.

 

 

[Gardian]

Well, I feel like a bit of a plonker now !

The gendarme rang me an hour ago as promised and told me that the stolen car was still registered to me. “I’ve got it here in front of me. Shall I print it out and drop by?”

“Yes please” said I, and so round he came.

He reckoned that I probably had some ‘finger trouble’ towards the end of the transaction, by which time the system had already allocated a new unique 5 figure code, hence the system telling me that my ‘old’ code didn’t match with the registration. He said that he wasn’t surprised because everything about ANTS was **********.

The document that he gave me is great, because it not only confirms me as the registered keeper, but confirms that there’s a valid Controle Technique on the car, something that insurer wants (all the documentation for which was in the vehicle!)

It also shows that the vehicle status is ‘vole’ and that I created a replacement CG yesterday. Therefore all the systems are in fact joined up - you couldn’t re-register the car to a new owner without the status being un-vole’d.

The other bit of good news is that the system has generated a temporary CG pending final payment (€51), which I’ve no need now to make.

Sorry to have confused everybody and all the input has been much appreciated. Oh and Idun, you’re absolutely right, copies of everything!

[nomoss]

Nothing at all to apologise for.

I think you have given everyone here pause for thought on precautions and procedures in case of vehicle theft.

[Gardian]

This whole business is horrible.

My insurer is insisting on the pukka Carte Grise (which was stolen with the car). I’ve made several attempts to get a replacement off of the ANTS system, but to no avail.

I got as far as the payment bit (€51), but it then chucked me out of the system. I then managed to get a ‘provisional’ one and thought that that would do, but they want the ‘real thing’, plus you can’t get a Certificat de Non-Gage without quoting the code on the front of the CG !

On my most recent attempt, the system said that since the vehicle had been stolen, would I upload the police report? Tried to do it and it failed - the document size was too big (5mb vs 1mb max) Grrrr !!

Sent them a message saying “Help” - response time will be 3 weeks.

Then, I got some post today. You can guess what one of the items was - a replacement CG. Obviously somebody up there reckons I’m not such a bad bloke after all.

What can possibly go wrong now?

[nomoss]

I use this programme to reduce the size of images if necessary.

https://pixresizer.en.softonic.com/

[Gardian]

Just a postscript to this saga.

Our insurer paid out for the car and its contents a couple of weeks ago. It was a very satisfactory settlement and the only problem was how long it all took. To be fair, that wasn’t all their fault - I had problems getting all the required documentation and the pandemic introduced postal delays etc.

Anyway, on Monday I had a call from the Gendarmerie in a small town not far from Nice - that’s 300kms from where we live. The car had just been found .......... totally burned out ! This is nearly five months after it was stolen.

They’ve sent me a report to forward to our insurer - they’re now the proud possessors of a wreck.

[Lori]

Imagine the story that car could tell, if it could talk.

Glad you got a good settlement.  Hopefully, the odds will be in your favor for never having this happen to you again.

[Alan Zoff]

Just had an insurance claim settled - well almost settled - for my garden wall knocked over by my neighbour's tree and their soil piled against it. Took over a year to get some money, even though the owner - a letting company - accepted liability straightaway and left it with their insurer to sort out. Even now, their insurer has deducted 500 euros until they can recover that sum from their client, seemingly under his excess terms. Not sure why the contract he has with his insurer should hold up the payment to me but I don't fully understand how it works in France and, frankly, I was relieved finally to receive the sum that was paid.

Sorry. I have taken this a little off topic. It was the mention of insurance....