Mindless Pointless Nonsense?

[Gluestick]

Has anyone else who regularly travel backwards and forwards to and from la belle France considered the sheer nonsense of the UK government's introduction of APNs (Advanced Passenger Notices)?

Surely, the main preoccupation of the Border Agency ought to be in keeping undesirables out!

No APN necessary for coming into the UK; just going out; yet, every time one leaves, the same sleepy fonctionares, scan one's passport and check it against their computer records; online, on screen and in front of their noses...

Checking the back window and ignoring the stable door when the horse bolted weeks ago and is now sitting in delicious hamburgers...

[+o(]

What's next? A charming person from the Border Agency, opening up trucks crammed with illegal migrants and requesting their passports, please?

[Www]

[NormanH]

As far as I am concerned this could be keeping undesirables out....of France!

[Gluestick]

That, surely, Norman, is a job for France.

The APN regime, let's face it, has dismally failed to keep British known anarchists, Open Borders activists and the rest of the unwashed lefty-liberal rabble of pretend students from commuting backwards and forwards to the Jungle in Calais, fomenting trouble and riots.

France itself has dismally failed to keep illegal migrants from repeatedly trying, illegally, to break into cross-channel ro-ro lorries and cause damage and harm to vehicles (including tourists and their cars), French property, fences and barriers in particular and become a blight upon the honest burghers of Calais.

Now, the French authorities have cleared the Jungle; and many of the illegals have bomburst outwards into Northern France.

Many have even reached Paris and set-up camps there.

[Chancer]

I am retrning to France on Monday, Eurotunnel £23 promo ticket, they sent me a mél asking for APN info which I already gave them when booking and travelling from France (so you are wrong on that one Mr G) and cant be bothered to do it again, we will see if it causes any delays at all, given that its all dehumanised I cant see them throwing labour at paprasse like this, they are just relying as usual on compliance, like they will be relying on me either using the return leg of the ticket or complying and paying another £125 for a single ticket.

 

Interesting to see the security fences at Calais, there is still the 3m high razor wire topped fence that was there last time I travelled, an additional 5m high one with razor wire has been added behind it and guard dog patrols operating in the space between like a POW camp, now they are erecting that £13 million or however much it was 5m high concrete fence that the UK is paying for, it was funny to see the contractors working on it after the camp had been cleared [:D]

 

It has got as far as the camp from the ferry terminal but there remains another 2/3 to complete, given that the UK are paying for it I guess that it will continue or the contractors will be compensated, a real shame because it is really ugly and stops the sea view and now for the first time you can see the sand dunes again. A monumental waste of money given Hollandes U turn, does anyone know what they are going to do with the shipping container accmodation? I would be interested in a few of them.

[andyh4]

I am surprised by the comment GS. We have to fill out the APN for entry to the UK but not for exit.

[Gluestick]

Interested to see how you progress, Chancer.

On a recent occasion, I did indeed complete the APN online; yet, apparently, it failed to work... Now I print it off each journey.

As a Frequent Traveller, one might have thought Eurotunnel with all their wondrous IT systems, might be able to correlate name and address etc and use the extant APN for a one off booking. But nope!

Mrs Gluey and I pitched up at check in, last year and big problems... had to go to the terminal and go through the whole damned process once more. Oh, and missed our shuttle.

We are also booked for the cheapo one day and apparently, if you miss the booked return, smacked wrist time and they will indeed bill your card for the missed return. Bit like a multi-storey car park. Lose your billet and you are smacked with one whole day. Interested to see what transpires...

Andy and Chancer: OK, correction accepted. Then, clearly the APN must apply to the first leg only. Which, since they clock one's passport/s on their screen each and every time (watched them do this and scan the thing) why bother with the APN? Thus if Chancer fails to arrive for his booked crossing, alarms bells will ring... [:D]

Surely, the bureaucracy of Border Agency and Home Office hopefully communicate with the Security Agency (MI5) in identifying people who pose a security risk to both nations: who then communicate via the intel networks and Interpol?

Had not visited the port areas for a long time, until Mrs G and I ran a friend who had been staying with us back  for a ferry home, last year. Reminded me of pictures of Colditz. Eurotunnel is now similar.

[quote]funny to see the contractors working on it after the camp had been cleared

 

It has got as far as the camp from the ferry terminal but there

remains another 2/3 to complete, given that the UK are paying for it I

guess that it will continue or the contractors will be compensated, a

real shame because it is really ugly and stops the sea view and now for

the first time you can see the sand dunes again. A monumental waste of

money given Hollandes U turn, does anyone know what they are going to do

with the shipping container accmodation? I would be interested in a few

of them.[/quote]

Well illegal migrants are still flooding in; droves of them.

Camping all over the immediate quiet spots, waiting to jump onto a truck next to the A16 and the A26, apparently; particularly, parking spots where truck drivers pull over and park up if they are out of hours on their tachograph.

[idun]

I have no idea what goes through the powers that be's minds, but I have a feeling that they think that we morph into someone else, maybe it is to combat ID theft.......... ?????

I have just had a right royal carry on in France about my ID. Ofcourse they know it is 'me' doubt they have any other customer that writes such abominable french, or speaks french the way I do, and, as I deal with the same person all the time, who has seen me in person, why the fuss and threats and menaces, I have no idea.

It is all nonsense and only embets honest people.

[andyh4]

GS wrote:

Which, since they clock one's passport/s on their screen each and every time (watched them do this and scan the thing) why bother with the APN?

Well just off the top of me head, and bouncing a few random ideas around and seeing what comes up to the surface:

Just possibly because not everyone entering and leaving the UK has a UK biometric passport, or indeed any biometric passport, and therefore their passport cannot be scanned.

just to add that I doubt if Chancer's no-show would cause a problem since he is a UK citizen with full residency rights in the UK (from what I have gleaned). The same might not be true for a non-EU citizen.

[Jonzjob]

OK, forgive my ignorance, but what the hell is an APN? I have tried a search on it and all that brings up is a Yanky API?

The reason for asking is that we are going to the U.K. in a couple of weeks, flying from Carcassonne. Does that have any effect on having/not having this thing?

We flew back in July, from Beziers, and didn't seem to need one then?

[AnOther]

Must be port by port because I had no such nonsense when travelling Dunkirk\Dover recently.

What I did experience though was a completely pointless double vehicle search on entry to Dunkirk prior to checkin, the first by French security then a mere 20 or 30m on and having driven past two armed French security guards a second identical check by UK border security.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="andyh4"]GS wrote:

Which, since they clock one's passport/s on their screen each and every time (watched them do this and scan the thing) why bother with the APN?

Well just off the top of me head, and bouncing a few random ideas around and seeing what comes up to the surface:

Just possibly because not everyone entering and leaving the UK has a UK biometric passport, or indeed any biometric passport, and therefore their passport cannot be scanned. [/quote]

A biometric passport (or indeed any biometric form of identity) is simply a more complex technical method of proving the person carrying the document is really the person to whom it belongs. Biometric documents carry one or more or either or: Iris Scans; Fingerprints; DNA etc.

Most other passports carry various scannable data: Number; Photograph of registered holder; and various official numbers and codes. Photo Recognition software, now, is very accurate; and the photograph supplied on application is holographic on the document, which further adds to its security.

See here:

Now, what a true Biometric document does, is to prove beyond reasonable doubt, that the person holding the document is indisputably the person to whom it was issued; and that person is a real person, rather than a criminal who somehow managed to create a false identity, used to apply for the document in the first place. Such approach, however, would need rigorous background checks and tests. One method (now not possible) in applying for a false passport, was to search for a child of similar birthdate of the fraudster, where the child died or was killed say in an accident. Then apply for a duplicate birth certificate; and employ this (and an accommodation address) for a passport application.

Anyway, since the Border Agency staff, scan all passports, each and every time, then what's the point of an APN?

[andyh4]

JJ

APN is the process whereby Airlines (as a minimum) require anyone flying to the UK to input their passport/identity card details prior to flying. It allows boarding to be denied to people on a no-fly list.

GS

I understood that a biometric passport contained a lot of details that can be scanned electronically. This is more than just taking an electronic picture of the page. It can flag that the person using a passport is not the legitimate holder of that passport.

Non-biometric passports can just be scanned to give a digital photographic copy.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="andyh4"].

GS

I understood that a biometric passport contained a lot of details that can be scanned electronically.[/quote]

Afraid that's is not correct, Andy. With any biometric ID document, card etc, it is the person  who must be checked. And then the biometric data compared. For example, fingerprints scanned, physically, in real time. Iris scanned, again, in real time. Sweat glands galvanised (small electric current) and then again sampled.

Think, as a lesser example, ANPR systems, such as the police authority uses and indeed, even Dartford Crossing: the process takes a digital picture of the index plate; then it resolves it into readable data using Optical Character Recognition (OCR); then feeds this into the DVLA's database which sorts through for a match. Eurotunnel employ ANPR systems also. Which is how often (not always!) one's booking details pop up almost immediately without the traveller's intervention.

[quote] This is more than just taking an electronic picture of the page. ........

Non-biometric passports can just be scanned to give a digital photographic copy.[/quote]

As I explained previously, passport scanners do not simply take "And electronic picture" of the page; they are multi-function. Firstly, the user's photographic image is an hologram; and can be viewed from various angles. Try this to see; additionally, various obvious and hidden codes are scanned too.

Also: " An RFID

chip and antenna are located on the obverse of the data page and hold

the same visual information as is printed, including a digital copy of

the photograph with biometric information for use with facial recognition systems. "

See here:

(Scroll down to European Format Passports).

The USA is already using biometrics to some degree. See Here:

[EuroTrash]

I've been flitting back and forth a lot lately and this has never impinged, in fact I booked another ferry crossing yesterday for this week and no mention of it. Maybe it's just a Eurotunnel thing?

I thought the main point of the biometric passports at the moment is that they're harder to forge since the photo is an integral part of the design and you can't change it for another. No doubt they also have other potential advantages that will be exploited in future years as the technology is brought in.

I have noticed that I with my biometric passport quite often seem to get through the checkpoints quicker than the car in front and the car behind, but I don't know if it's the passport or just my angelic face.

[Chancer]

I travelled back today with Eurotunnel, £23 for a dat return, absolute bargain.

Rewind to last April when I did a day trip with them from France with 2 French friends (we did actually return that time!) and I filled out all our APN info as they had problems on another occasion (they no longer look like their photos etc) and the sytem said that it would save our détails, no need to input them again, the journey was seamless.

This time it wanted the détails again although I used my UK address for the booking, it said if I didnt do so I may be delayed while they verify the passengers, as I didnt have any I didnt bother. As I thought no checks were made and apart from the border/security controls I never had an interaction with a human being, I think they just gather what info they can electronically to make out that they are complying, the security services might one day use it as part of an investigation but I think most people like me wont bother to jump through the hoops in future.

 

Security checks are much stricter travelling in both directions, pretty much equal, passport control, douanes and a seperate private security company doing vehicle checks,  looking for migrants in France and firearms in the UK, interestingly they are all UK temp agency workers even in France.

 

No problems at all now at Calais, I am pleased for the Calaisiens, the wall is still being built [:P] I want to buy some of the shipping container accomodation blocks.

[nomoss]

What's all this fuss and bother about iris scans, sweat analysis, DNA analysis, etc. etc.?

UK "biometric" (means "of human"  measurements, which is sort of a clue) Passports contain merely the following:

The UK’s biometric passports contain a microchip with a ‘facial

biometric’. This is a digitised image of the holders photograph. Various

features on the face, for example the distance between eyes, nose,

mouth and ears, are digitally coded from the photograph and the

information stored on the electronic chip.

Source: [url]http://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/information-contained-on-uk-passports/[/url] - and lots of other places.

[Gluestick]

"Examples of physiological characteristics used for biometric authentication include fingerprints; DNA; face, hand, retina

or ear features; and odor. Behavioral characteristics are related to

the pattern of the behavior of a person, such as typing rhythm, gait,

gestures and voice.

Certain biometric identifiers, such as monitoring keystrokes or gait in

real time, can be used to provide continuous authentication instead of a

single one-off authentication check.

Other areas that are being explored in the quest to improve biometric

authentication include brainwave signals, electronic tattoos, and a

password pill that contains a microchip

powered by the acid present in the stomach. Once swallowed, it creates a

unique ID radio signal that can be sensed from outside the skin,

turning the entire body into a password."

Source:

[andyh4]

The interesting thing about RFID technology is that the chips come in a variety of families.

There are read only - basically the chip has a "number" attached to it and is identified by the reader. It basically says "Here I am, I am 12345ABCD". This is I think the type used in your autoroute doofer (it could also be the last type). The gate reads it in, and reads it out and the computer does the rest. These chips can be powered, but many are not. If the signal has to travel a distance (say more than 1.5m) there is a benefit in powering the chip to boost its output signal.

Clearly biometric passports hold more than just a number.

At the other end of the spectrum are the data-loggers. They collect data at specific triggers (perhaps every 10 minutes) and save that data, which can be downloaded later. Typically these might be embedded in the trays used to hold and transport frozen foods. The chip records temperatures at regular intervals and provides assurance that the goods have not got too warm and started to defrost and maybe then refrozen again. These need a power source to keep them running and while these could be quite small it is unlikely that you could get one into the cover of a passport.

The third family sits between and are read-write chips. They contain more information than just an identification number - indeed can contain a lot of information - like all of your biometric data.

So now for all of the conspiracy theorists, here is the interesting question. While they are scanning the chip to access your biometric data, what data are they downloading onto the chip? Big Brother may indeed be watching.

[Chancer]

I dont find that sinister, seems to me no different to stamping your passport with a Visa and dates of arrival and departure to and from countries, just more secure in that it cannot be seen and presumably copied by the scammers.

However it could bring up on the screen "Watch this guy, he is dodgy" or "give him a hard time, he deserves it" but the computer system already contains flagged data like that, its unlikely they would write it to the passport chip.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gluestick"]"Examples of physiological characteristics used for biometric authentication include fingerprints; DNA; face, hand, retina

or ear features; and odor. Behavioral characteristics are related to

the pattern of the behavior of a person, such as typing rhythm, gait,

gestures and voice.

Certain biometric identifiers, such as monitoring keystrokes or gait in

real time, can be used to provide continuous authentication instead of a

single one-off authentication check.

Other areas that are being explored in the quest to improve biometric

authentication include brainwave signals, electronic tattoos, and a

password pill that contains a microchip

powered by the acid present in the stomach. Once swallowed, it creates a

unique ID radio signal that can be sensed from outside the skin,

turning the entire body into a password."

Source:

[/quote]

But not on UK passports, which is what you originally implied.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="andyh4"]

So now for all of the conspiracy theorists, here is the interesting question. While they are scanning the chip to access your biometric data, what data are they downloading onto the chip? Big Brother may indeed be watching.[/quote]

Indeed, Andy. And it was this potential for constantly tracking individuals 24/7, which raised hackles in both the tech industry and the various civil liberty organisations.

We know already, retailers using RFID product tags are aligning the data into the consumer's profile, for marketing purposes.

The problems arise when government covertly track our every move; and reach erroneous conclusions...

[Gluestick]

[quote user="nomoss"]

But not on UK passports, which is what you originally implied.

[/quote]

Not me fine, Sir...

If you look back then you will see the government site I quoted clearly states "Certain biometric information".

However, sadly, this is prototypical of buzzwords: employed within incorrect contextual reference.

That said, one definition of the word "Biometric" clearly suggests that it means Biological Measurement". Since the current Euro-Passport does use holographic imaging, this does contain reference data for identification: e.g. eye spacing; space between forehead and chin etc.

Personally, I think of the word in the BioTech context: viz, the admixture of technology with human biology.

Which thus far, as Government's plans to roll-out full biometric (Biotech) passports were cancelled on civil rights and cost terms of reference.