I have confused my self

[cooperlola]

It is a town Pads, but also a wine growing region - not a geographic or administrative one, afaik.

[Pads]

[quote user="cooperlola"]It is a town Pads, but also a wine growing region - not a geographic or administrative one, afaik.[/quote]

Ahhhh the little buggar there was I thinking it was a region, do you think school books and teachers do this on purpose to trap you [8-)]

but the rest is right now huh ?

[Chancer]

[quote user="libellule"]Sorry J.R. but the translation of "I had done" is "j'avais fait" ie plus que parfait or pluperfect tense.[/quote]

Dont say sorry I appreciate your input, even more so if you reply to the thread I have just started on prenominals!

[cooperlola]

[quote user="J.R."]

[quote user="libellule"]Sorry J.R. but the translation of "I had done" is "j'avais fait" ie plus que parfait or pluperfect tense.[/quote]

Dont say sorry I appreciate your input, even more so if you reply to the thread I have just started on prenominals!

[/quote]What all these tenses/parts of speech etc are called is just so bloomin' confusing anyway. If I had not had a friend opposite learning French at the mo', I would never have known that people call reflexive verbs pre (or is it pro?) nominal these days.[:-))]

[Tourangelle]

[quote user="J.R."]

I was trying to point out that in English there are 2 perfect tenses, the present perfect and the past perfect, it is the past perfect that you are referring to i.e "I had done", the present perfect would be "I have done"

To me the passé composé is the equivalent of the past perfect "I had done" and the past simple "I did".

  [/quote]

These are not tenses, these are aspects. Present perfect means that there is the present have + the past participle.  Therefore there is no new conjugation.  It is the same for the past perfect, had is conjugated, had, + past participle.  There are only two tenses in English, the preterite and the present. 

The passé composé can be translated by the past simple, however it cannot be translated by past perfect.  The past perfect is translated by ... the past perfect, le plus-que-parfait.  The past perfect is one of the easiest tenses going, you use avoir in the imperfect, and then the past participle. (for the French these are tenses, but only temps composés) It is used in the same way as the past perfect in English.

Here are some examples off the top of my head.

He had already started cooking when I rang

Il avait déjà commencé à faire à manger quand j'ai appelé

If I had known, I wouldn't have come

Si j'avais su, je ne serais pas venue

She had already left when we got there

Elle était déjà partie quand nous sommes arrivés

[Pads]

I emailed my teacher with what we have been saying and sent her the copy of what it said in my blue verb book.

 She says its right , this is her reply

so now im really confused :[8-)]

 

 YOu are right - the passé composé and the perfect tense are one and the same thing!
 
What you have copied out below is also right. There is a group of verbs which form the passé composé with etre as the auxiliary verb, not avoir.
 
Passer  is one, aller, venir, arriver, monter and descendre are some of the others: they will all be listed in your book of verbs. There are about 13 in all, so not too difficult to learn!
 
Ne t´inquiète pas! Tu ne te rends pas folle! Tu es une étudiante très diligente. Bon courage.

 

Clair I like your in put on this if your looking !![:)]

Do I need to change my book, teacher , or forum buddies ????[:D] 

I have just checked her list against my verb book and they also use etre on these words 

[Tourangelle]

I'm confused by what you have not understood. 

The perfect tense is called the passé composé in French.

The past perfect is not the same as the perfect.  The passé composé or perfect is not the same thing as the past perfect, (despite what has been written) which is also called plus-que-parfait in French and pluperfect in English. 

Passer is a verb that takes avoir or être, as does monter, for example, when it means something has risen.  eg Tous les prix ont monté, means all the prices have gone up..., but if I wanted to tell somebody, if I were really boring, that I got on the bus, I would have to say je suis montée dans le bus.

You certainly are dilligent though!

[Clair]

Aaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrgghhhhhhhh..........

• Taking the verb passer: you can say ils sont passés par Paris (they went via Paris) and you can also say ils ont passé la journée à Paris (they spent the day in Paris).

• Taking monter: you can say ils sont monté par l'escalier (they came up by the stairs) and you can say ils ont monté l'escalier (they went up the stairs).
• Taking descendre: you can say ils sont descendus par l'escalier (they came down by the stairs) and you can say ils ont descendu l'escalier (they came down the stairs).

The rule is linked to the passive form, which always uses être. In the second part of the examples above, you could say:

• la journée a été passée à Paris
• l'escalier a été monté
• l'escalier a été descendu

The passive form cannot be used for the other three verbs:

• Taking aller; you can say ils sont allés à Paris or ils sont allés par Paris (they went to Paris or via Paris) but  ils ont allés à Paris is incorrect.
• Taking venir, you can say ils sont venus à Paris or ils sont venus par Paris (they came to Paris or via Paris) but ils ont venus à Paris is incorrect.
• Taking arriver; you can say ils sont arrivés à Paris or ils sont arrivés par Paris (they arrived in Paris or via Paris) but ils ont arrivés à Paris is incorrect.

[cooperlola]

Your teacher and your book are correct, but only in so far as they go.   The trick is figuring out the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs, which even fluent English speakers get wrong in their mother tongue.  How many people do you know who tell their dogs to "lay down"?  This is clearly wrong because lay is a transative verb - ie one which is able to take a direct object - you can lay a table or a tasty looking chap but you can't lay down - you lie down.  To lie is intransitive because it cannot take an object - you cannot lie a thing, but you can lay one. 

That is the key as CJLaws says : In the case you cite, it is transitive - it can take an object - as it does here "I passed the time" , so in that case passer takes avoir.

Conversely, when passer is used to mean came, it cannot take an object (you can't say I came the anything, it's always qualified - as in "I came at a certain time or via a certain place etc.) and in this case it takes etre.

[Pads]

Im sitting here wiping tears of frustration off my face but I going to get to the bottom of this[:-))]

Right first off all,  if I understand every one correctly the Perfect tense is the same thing as passe compose .

But under the verb Passer in one book I have Passe compose telling me that it is using etre, the other book Perfect is using avoir for Passer,  why is this ???? 

I sent the copy of Passe compose (passer) to my teacher she says its right

on here people are telling me to use avoir , which makes sence to me

me and my friends (have ) spent 3 hours in bordeaux

but I feel as if my teacher is telling me to use etre, or maybe I read her email wrong or dont understand what she is saying , 

[cooperlola]

See above!

EDIT : This is the reason, also, why reflexive (what I now know we call pro-nomitative!) verbs always take etre - because they are always done to somebody (oneself) - they never take an object directly - and are thus ALWAYS intransitive and thus take etre.

[Pads]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Your teacher and your book are correct, but only in so far as they go.   The trick is figuring out the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs, which even fluent English speakers get wrong in their mother tongue.  How many people do you know who tell their dogs to "lay down"?  This is clearly wrong because lay is a transative verb - ie one which is able to take a direct object - you can lay a table or a tasty looking chap but you can't lay down - you lie down.  To lie is intransitive because it cannot take an object - you cannot lie a thing, but you can lay one. 

That is the key as CJLaws says : In the case you cite, it is transitive - it can take an object - as it does here "I passed the time" , so in that case passer takes avoir.

Conversely, when passer is used to mean came, it cannot take an object (you can't say I'm came the anything, it's always qualified - as in "I came at a certain time or via a certain place etc.) and in this case it takes etre.

[/quote]

Thanks for that cooperlola [:)]

But I cant see where that comes into the example Im using (sorry) can you explain what your saying using .

 Me and my friend spent 2 hours in Bordeaux

moi et mes amis avons passe 2 heures a bordeaux

moi et mes amis sommes passe 2 heures a bordeaux

these are the 2 anwers im getting from 2 different books

 

 

[cooperlola]

NO.  You cannot write "sommes passes 2 heures a Bordeaux" because in this case, passes has an object - 2 hours.   You can write "nous sommes passes a Bordeaux"  (We came to Bordeaux) you always have to qualify the object, in this case with the word to.

I'll bet you anything your book does not say "nous sommes passe 2 heures," does it?  - if it does it's wrong.  Nous avons passe deux heures or nous sommes passes a Bordeaux.

Also, it's "my friends and I spent time in Bordeax", so your friends come first, as in English.  You would not say "Me spent time in Bordeaux," so equally, you cannot say "me and my friends"!

[Pads]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

NO.  You cannot write "sommes passes 2 heures a Bordeaux" because in this case, passes has an object - 2 hours.   You can write "nous sommes passes a Bordeaux"  (We came to Bordeaux) you always have to qualify the object, in this case with the word to.

I'll bet you anything your book does not say "nous sommes passe 2 heures," does it?  - if it does it's wrong.  Nous avons passe deux heures or nous sommes passes a Bordeaux.

No it dosnt say 2 hours ..... my confusion is in one book saying ( nous sommes passe)( what is this saying ) The other (nous avon passe) this means we have spent (passed ) time

And how both of these can be used ? and why my books are different , with no footnote to say both can be used !! And what is my teacher on about in her email ???  

Also, it's "my friends and I spent time in Bordeax", so your friends come first, as in English.  You would not say "Me spent time in Bordeaux," so equally, you cannot say "me and my friends"!

[/quote]

[Cjlaws]

OK Pads - I'm going to give this my best shot.

Don't worry about the passé composé and the perfect tense. You've got that right.

The problem is that ther are two verbs called passer. The first passer means, amoungst other meanings, to pass through, or to call in.

That is the intransitive verb (sorry to be technical), and it takes être as its auxilliary verb, so you would say je suis passée (note the extra e because you're a girl) par la gare - I went by the station, or nous sommes passés (note the s because there were two or more of you) chez toi vers midi - we came to your house at about midday.

Other meanings of passer include the one you originally used, to spend (time). This is the transitive verb and it takes avoir as its auxilliary verb. So you have to say "Mes amis et moi avons passé deux heures à Bordeaux". Note that generally when the auxilliary verb is avoir the past participle (passé) doesn't change to agree with the subject as it does with être ( like passée, passés).

I'll bet that's clear as mud, but it's the best I can do. feel free to PM me if you think there's more I can do for you.

Keep at it. You're trying very hard, and the goal is to speak French, not to quote grammar rules.

[Ysatis]

Hi Pads,

( nous sommes passe)( what is this saying )

We passed as in movement/motion. 'we passed the church'.

(nous avon passe) this means we have spent (passed ) time

Yes, we have spent/stayed 3 days in Paris.

(I think!)

Both your books are probably correct, but using the verb in different context's and not over-lapping their context's.

[Pads]

[quote user="Cjlaws"]OK Pads - I'm going to give this my best shot.
Don't worry about the passé composé and the perfect tense. You've got that right.

The problem is that ther are two verbs called passer. The first passer means, amoungst other meanings, to pass through, or to call in.
That is the intransitive verb (sorry to be technical), and it takes être as its auxilliary verb, so you would say je suis passée (note the extra e because you're a girl) par la gare - I went by the station, or nous sommes passés (note the s because there were two or more of you) chez toi vers midi - we came to your house at about midday.
Other meanings of passer include the one you originally used, to spend (time). This is the transitive verb and it takes avoir as its auxilliary verb. So you have to say "Mes amis et moi avons passé deux heures à Bordeaux". Note that generally when the auxilliary verb is avoir the past participle (passé) doesn't change to agree with the subject as it does with être ( like passée, passés).

I'll bet that's clear as mud, but it's the best I can do. feel free to PM me if you think there's more I can do for you.
Keep at it. You're trying very hard, and the goal is to speak French, not to quote grammar rules.
[/quote]

[kiss][kiss][kiss] Cjlaws I love you ....... I just turned the page and oh look there is another passer[:$] using the other one !! ( now why didnt I do that earlier I feel a right blueTiT now) How come nobody told me to turn the page huh !![:@] I was ready to throw this book in the bin [:$] Time for bed said zebadee !!!!  

[Pads]

[quote user="Ysatis "]

Hi Pads,

( nous sommes passe)( what is this saying )

We passed as in movement/motion. 'we passed the church'.

(nous avon passe) this means we have spent (passed ) time

Yes, we have spent/stayed 3 days in Paris.

(I think!)

Both your books are probably correct, but using the verb in different context's and not over-lapping their context's.

[/quote]

Thanks babe , but I have just seen another passer on the other page ,a whole afternoon of fustration over 2 different words that were the same [8-)] 

[Cjlaws]

[quote user="Pads"]

[kiss][kiss][kiss] Cjlaws I love you ....... I just turned the page and oh look there is another passer[:$] using the other one !! ( now why didnt I do that earlier I feel a right blueTiT now) How come nobody told me to turn the page huh !![:@] I was ready to throw this book in the bin [:$] Time for bed said zebadee !!!!  

[/quote]

Sleep tight Pads and let us know how you get on with the next challenge[:)]

[Ysatis]

So glad you've worked it out, switch off now and have a good rest...I think you need it! I'm off too, hubby home.

 

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Pads"]

[kiss][kiss][kiss] Cjlaws I love you ....... I just turned the page and oh look there is another passer[:$] using the other one !! ( now why didnt I do that earlier I feel a right blueTiT now) How come nobody told me to turn the page huh !![:@] I was ready to throw this book in the bin [:$] Time for bed said zebadee !!!!  [/quote]

Pads

I just want to say that you are a great aspiration to us all, and you are going so well.

I have been following all you language threads and find your questions and the superb replies you get very helpful, as I myself have been learning french for 4 years now, I did the beginners course at the college evening classes twice!!

You are very focused and must spend hours per day studying.

My problem is that I have a very slow recall and my confidence in actually speaking and pronunciation is low, so when faced with a real life situation I have to prepare well in advance and practice.[:(]

So keep it up girl.

And a few words of praise for everyone who is helping pads, thank you, you are helping me and possible others as well.

[Pads]

Thanks everyone for all the time it took with me to sort out Passer yeaterday, I feel bit of a wally now [:$] If only I'd of turned the page to look at the next verb I would of seen the next Passer there. Still I learnt one thing yesterday its to check and see if a word has 2 meanings [blink]

I will try to keep off here today to give you all a rest[:)] But I will return !!![:D]

You were all fantastic [:D][kiss]  

[Ron Avery]

What ever you do Pads, leave "monter" for a few weeks[;-)]

[cooperlola]

Pads, I don't know about everybody else, but I find all this very useful myself, as I tend to have got incredibly lazy about my grammar since I've lived here - I just wing it nowadays and hope I've remembered everything correctly from my A level days.  So it's good to get analytical again!  I think you are being really studious about your learning and it's paying off already.  And you'll never forget the two meanings of passer now!

[Judith]

Pads

I've just been reading all the threads which happened last night when I was otherwise engaged, and went straight to bed when I got in, or I would have answered your question about perfect/ passe compose immediately.  (I see it took some time for you to get the answer!)  Fortunately I'm of the age when I learnt both English and French grammar pretty well, names and all, which I know does not happen now.  If you know how grammar works in your mother tongue you stand a much better chance of learning another language, as in most languages other than English a knowledge of the grammar rules (as evidenced by the long posting) is very much more important and without them it is much more difficult to learn anything but the basics.

Having said all of that, and not having done any formal French lessons for over two years now,  I have to say that you put us all to shame in the work you put in to learn and (more importantly, and we know why you have to do this, but it is importantant for us all to do so) UNDERSTAND what and why it is correct.  As you can see, French is not an easy language to learn to a great depth (at any age), and I am eternally grateful that I had good teaching at that level when I was at school.

However, unlike many on this forum, my school learning of French was of the type where oral (and even aural) work was not rated highly, and very little was done on that, hence I still struggle to speak and understand spoken French to a high level, whilst I can read well, and (with more practice) can write well enough too.  Fortunately, I find the odd glass of wine takes away the inhibtions when speaking, and I make loads of mistakes, to make myself understood.  Though the French say I speak French well, I think they are being their polite selves as they will be with anyone who makes the effort!

As I have said before, and others on this posting have said before me, the questions you pose are valuable for all of us, and (in my case) continue to contribute to my returning memories of the language in the current absence of any formal training.

So keep on questoning and keep on posting, you are doing just fine!