Frederick Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Does France have any islands she send her criminals off to like in the movie Papillon ? UK Radio this morning stated there are no places left in prison ..first time in UK history all places are taken up....so people have to be let out to make room for new ones ....A camp on the Falklands seems a good idea and deterrant to me and would provide employement for the locals .. or is that against human rights now ! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Why on earth would you go to the expense of sending them all the way to the Falklands ? I'm not sure the Falkland Islanders need that source of employment either:http://tinyurl.com/35tehqThe first person let out should be the elderly guy who isn't going to pay his 'rates' IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Frederick,the reason prisons are full in the UK is that many 'petty' criminals get sent to prison by the courts, when there are many community alternatives available! Prisons should really only be used for the 'most dangerous' offenders...........those that really are a risk to the public. It's the fault of the policy makers that prisons are full................and think of how much it costs the tax payer!And sending offenders to different far away islands................didn't Britain do that with Australia[blink]EDIT: and the prison in French Guyana was 'barbaric' and inhuman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 I believe to slash somone with a knife in the street has now been recommended as an offence for which "Community Service " is appropriate ..... As for Australia .. I am not suggesting people be shipped out and left overseas ....I think that there is a need to make people think twice before they go out drug dealing or in armed gangs or to to pick picket ,,,,,,The sort of life they get in prison today does not put them off the course of action they go out to undertake .....Thats what is missing ..these people dont seem to be frightened of going to prison . What is wrong with being sent off some place to work ! some place a bit uncomfortable ,,,some place that gives the message "Thats were you might end up " As for the Falklands ..well the place is there ...its under our control and flights go back and forth evey week ...Whats wrong with sending the young fit troublemakers who rob ..or the pickpockets groups that come and pray on us out there to work on the Islands roads under the control of the Military if need be for a while We could send volunteer single prison officers to go out on a " 6 month tour ."...assisted by other prisoners who are prepared to "Work Off " a bit of their sentence ...in trusted support and management roles ..Well covered in the press creating such a place to serve a sentence might make some think twice before they take the path into UK prisons ..and sending some of our visitor pick pocket teams out there might just cause the others to rush back to Dover .. No visits..No TV ...out in the wind and rain filling in pot holes in the roads ....why not ? We used to have Borstal Farms to have them work on ...what happened to them ? I am not suggesting sending out hundreds .........more .... sending out the message there exists a bad place for you to spend your sentance if you persist in being a robbing thug we havent got such a place at the moment have we ! .......and .....While in prison people can claim, exemption from paying council tax ! ....somthing else that needs looking at ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Frederick,There are quite a few issues involved with what you have said...............it's not as simple as that, if it was, do you not think that governments could have solved the problems. Firstly, prison has 'never' and I say 'never', been a deterent to detemined offenders! Secondly, if offenders were sent to , as you suggest, the falklands..............would the government pay for the family to visit their father/mother/son/daughter every week. Prison basically deprives someone of their liberty for a period of time...........that is the punishment! Not further punishment whilst in prison. (and definately not to punish the family)"Borstal farms to have them work on........what happened to these"......................Frederick, they didn't deter, they just engendered more sophisticated ways of committing crimes!It seems to me that you haven't really thought this through.............it's an interesting debate and I would be willing to continue.........as a criminologist (in the past) I find it fascinating and stimulating.................I would really like to know the answer, but unfortunately,despite my experience, I don't...................[:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 Artsole ...I think things have been let go too far.....we are now boxed into a corner and no way out . I know Social Services will provide transport to take wives and kids to visit Dad in prison at the taxpayers expence ......You say we must not punish the family .....I say tough ...should have thought of the consequences before doing the crime ....if the family cant afford to visit ...then you dont get to see them ..Why should we pay through taxes for visitors transport ? As for community service being more the way to go ....what do you do with them when they dont turn up to do it ? ...and they continue with their criminal ways as soon as they leave the court building ....cant send them to Prison ....full up !.... A way has to be found to put a fear into people of going to prison..... I am old enough to remember that their was a fear of what would happen to you if you went to the Isle of Man and tried to mug sombody there . I also remember the reputation of Dartmoor and The Isle of Wight when Prisons were mentioned .who is frightened of the mention of these prisons anymore ?We now have a situation where those who have arrived on these shores with the intention of living by crime .... I read are being rejected by the countries they came from when we try and send them back on release from prison when we have managed to deal with them . They know who we have got and are glad to have got rid of them ....how are we going to deal with that ? .Are they to be kept given a Comunity Service Order every time they are arrested now and then left on the streets to rob us ? ....In my view we have to get tough....and put the FEAR of doing time back into Society ....Forget all the visits TV etc replace it with a hard work sentence .An offender hearing a sentence "Twelve months hard labour served overseas ".... might just do the trick .and why not attached to some military base somewhere to be used as a work force .. Got to be cheaper than millions spent on building new prisons to be run by the private sector .and they are off our streets ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Wasn't there some talk about creating a prison ship? Or maybe I'm imagining it. The trouble with your idea Frederick (among other things) is there aren't any more inaccessible places left in the world. Russia used to use Siberia, and Sakalin. I once read a book by Chekov about his visit to Sakalin. Not a bad place really. The other idea ,as in the bible, refuge cities. That was in the days when the aggrieved family could take revenge on the criminal, so he needed protection.Now it's the aggrieved family that needs protection [:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 patfWhat are you suggesting? that we go back to 'stoneing people' and 'lepper colonies'......................in some middle east countries they still cut the arms off petty thieves, shall we resort to that as well.................or why not go the whole hog.............and crucify people/or tie heavy chains to them and chuck them in a river to see if they float....if they float they are guilty, if they drown they're not guilt........................all along the M1 we could have criminals nailed to crosses for all the world to view and abuse? How far do you want to take it?[:D]No seriously, frederick, community service isn't the only community penalty available to the courts.But this does need to be viewed from a reasoned perspective, 'knee jerk' reactions do no good at all! Governments respond with knee jerk reactions all the time..............thats why the criminal justice system is in such a mess. It's like giving a pain killer for a broken leg, initially it eases the pain and the patient is happy, but soon the pain killer wears off and you need major surgery to make it better, if not you give another pain killer...............and so on and so on. Thats what governments do to appease the general public and to gain another term in office; There has always been crime, since apes started to walk and talk...................it is human nature.............tribal in origin............although the world has progressed in leaps and bounds with technology, the humain being hasn't really moved much from 'neanderthal'. We are all a product of social conditioning, from family to friends, and then school.........add to that the psychological process which develops throughout social conditioning, then you have a very complex person. Governments will never succesfully tackle antisocial and criminal culture.....................because it means reviewing, and changing, the whole social structure........it is known that the majority of offenders come from working class or non working class backgrounds..............the majority of crimes are committed against working class or nonworking class people.You mention 'drug dealers'.........................we live in a 'demand and supply' society, if there were no end users.............;there would be no drug dealers. Drug users come from all sections of society. My solution for that................and I am surprised how governments haven't cottoned on to this...............;there are £millions..........no billions to be earned if it was made legal and properly monitered and managed. Look what happened in the US when they introduced 'prohibition'. It ceated a whole new criminal subculture. Cannabis was originally made illegal in the US based on Racist legislation..............the majority of users were black americans...................and overnight they turned them into "criminals"This could end up like a 10,000 word essay so I have to stop.........[:-))] but do continue because it is an issue for a lot of people both here in France and in Britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Have you heard of this guy Artsole?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/exclusions/thinklocal/nosplit/crime3.xml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating. I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK. This was a prison for long-term offenders who were within a short time of their release dates. A number of the prisoners got involved in community projects and helped out with worthy causes locally. One of these chaps (a convicted murderer who had a few months left of a 20 year sentence) used to help walk rescued greyhounds around the wood next to the field where I kept my ponies. I regularly passed him on the way to his unpaid job, and quite often gave him a lift.The trust which the prison gave these people had a real affect on him, and he was a fascinating person to talk to. The trust which had been given to him had made him think very seriously about what he had done and he was determined to live a good life when he got out. I often wonder what happened to him. I'm still alive to tell the tale anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 RH...................interesting, and really proves my point, inmates in prison definately don't live better than those in society, I never said they did.............have you ever been in a prison?And I agree with a lot of what he says, ie: he has, "........programs to curtail recidivism, lessons to develop, educate, train and increase self esteem"he has a program to bring femail inmates and their daughters together.These are exactly my points to Frederic and patf, but furthermore, my arguement is that the majority of antisocial people don't have to be put in prison to benefit from these regimes.......................it can be done in the community at a 3rd of the cost of keeping someone in prison. and my main point, about governments 'knee jerk' reactions............if you calculate the cost of a 'full prison' program, then surely, these resources could be better put to use in the community..........schools, community programs etc............to stop the antisocial behaviour from ever starting. [:)]Thanks for the link................having been out of the criminal justice system since 1998 , it's good to catch up on current trends.....[geek]EDIT: Just seen your post cooperlola.............that does prove something doesn't it? And I used to regularly visit East Sutton Park (female offenders prison) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Having now done some research, can put some of this into perspective...................on the last known figures,(that I could find) in England and wales there were approximately 72,000 in prison. The prison service at the same time employed 43,000 ...............thats just over 1 and half prisoners for each member of prison staff. The costs for each prisoner (per year) is approximately £27,000.In the late 80's I know for sure that the prison population was falling in England and Wales (Scotland has its own figures) but due to problems of successive 'get tough' home secretaries..................of which Michael Howard was the worst, the prison population has been rising ever since.This just goes some way to prove my point....................if you put £27,000 per year for each delinquant, early intervention could have wide ranging benefits in reducing future problems including crime, accomodation, drugs,(including alcohol) and aggressive behaviour. Can you imagine the significance of future cost savings? Plus the trauma that crime causes victims, which in turn has a financial knock on affect............hospitilisation, loss of work time, insurance claims, It's a known fact...............in my circles that is, that childhood risks (to end up 'antisocial) are family criminality, Risk taking, low school acheivement, poverty and poor parenting skills.Come on do the figures..................there are people on here who are much more financially aware than me[Www] Thinking of Ian and Gluestick in particularly...........financial wizkids going by some of your posts.[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I often think that this is one of the dangers of the way in which budgets are worked out. If a child is a nuisance at school, these days we eject them (maybe just for a few days), often because the cost of remedial education is considered prohibitive. Nobody seems to me to ever want to consider the knock on effect of what happens when we abandon these kids - and how much they will cost society if not properly cared for and dealt with (and I mean that in a kind way - I don't mean birching them or sending them off to borstal) whist still young enough. I suspect (although my evidence is thin) that this has a lot to do with the fact that the budgets and financial thinking are never joined up enough. I have a friend who is a remedial teacher in Nottingham, and all she sees are more and more budget cuts and her hours are fewer and fewer every year, whilst the number of "delinquent" children rises, as does the UK prison population. Something is really wrong here.Ultimately, imo, spend money on proper care for the young, and we will produce more caring adults for the future. Draconian punishment once the damage is done has been well proven not to stamp out recidivsm.R/H's chap in the article is fascinating because although he speaks about punishing offenders, he also understands the value of education, rehabilition and humanitarian contact.Whatever, there has to be a better way than the one used now in the Western world. The current one certainly does not work and, as Artsole points out, costs us a bloomin' fortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weedon Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 [quote user="cooperlola"]Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating. I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK. [/quote] Oh my god Coops! I used to live at Gills Green near Cranbrook.Anyway I digress, what about the Isle of Wight? I went there once, seems like a hell of a swim to get away from the place. Might be cost effective to move people from there to leave it empty for prisoners. The present population might even be prepared to chip in to get away.Okay..okay it's only a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I wasn't really advocating the use of those punitive methods I mentioned, I only meant to point out how attitudes have changed over time and place. Currently the trend seems to be, ideally, reeducation for the offender. But many people still think that those who break the law, especially those who endanger others, should be kept out of society. This applies to some badly behaved children in schools too. And as for revenge, have you spoken to parents whose child has been abused , injured , never mind killed. They aren't so interested in rehabilitation, apart from some extreme examples of a forgiving nature. As artsole says , it's a huge subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted February 24, 2008 Author Share Posted February 24, 2008 It now seems the governement has found an answer to overcrowding ....Prison officers and their families living in houses owned by the Prison Service ( Married Quarters ) for which they pay rent have up to May to get out or face eviction..Their homes are going to be used to move inmates into wearing tags as they are build close to the prisons they can be kept under supervision. That should free up a few cells ... The prison officer who has to find a new home for his family move the kids out of school etc probable will not get a mortgage on his salery in London big enough to buy a house so. he will have to leave the prison service and move out of London ...or probably go sick with stress and take early retirement ..... When they run out of these houses ....plenty of married quarters inside the wire in military establishments to evict families from for the poor tagged prisoners .................... now I know the lunatics are in charge of the asylum ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 [quote user="Weedon"][quote user="cooperlola"] Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating. I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK. [/quote] Oh my god Coops! I used to live at Gills Green near Cranbrook. [/quote]This should go in the "small world" thread, but we lived at Flishinghurst, on the A262, so just around the corner, for 28 years. Weird or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 [quote user="Frederick"]It now seems the governement has found an answer to overcrowding ....Prison officers and their families living in houses owned by the Prison Service ( Married Quarters ) for which they pay rent have up to May to get out or face eviction..Their homes are going to be used to move inmates into wearing tags as they are build close to the prisons they can be kept under supervision. That should free up a few cells ... The prison officer who has to find a new home for his family move the kids out of school etc probable will not get a mortgage on his salery in London big enough to buy a house so. he will have to leave the prison service and move out of London ...or probably go sick with stress and take early retirement ..... When they run out of these houses ....plenty of married quarters inside the wire in military establishments to evict families from for the poor tagged prisoners .................... now I know the lunatics are in charge of the asylum ![/quote]Frederick, this is a typical 'knee jerk' reaction from a government that has no idea about the real issues! Where did you see this report by the way?Weedon..............hope there's no one from the IOW on here[:$] But when you think about it, you don't really need an island to imprison someone..................a prison by definition does it already!Patf...............OK.............I withdraw my tongue in cheek remarks.................and yes, I have worked with parents whos children have been abused and killed.............not an easy task I can assure you, and yes revenge is the first reaction! And I am in total agreement, the most dangerous should be encarcerated, the problem with prison overcrowding, is that offenders who perhaps just need a community re-education program are also imprisoned under government/judicial get tough policies!Cooperlola.....................I am really pleased that you had a positive experience with someone who could be deemed by some as a 'dangerous offender' , but actually, figures prove that murderers, after release from prison, are the least likely to re-offend[:D]And on the subject of government budgets..................can you imagine if the funds for the prison population were to be put into education and remedial education.............just think about the benefit of prisonworker/prisoner ratio if it were to be transferred to teacher/pupil ratio...............even if it was 6 pupils to one teacher the future benefits could be substantial............and no more forty plus classrooms where the teachers can't cope!Kent does have a high proportion of prisons.......................not sure why, but probably because of its proximity to London? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weedon Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Artsole, my suggestion for the IOW was simply in reply to the O/P which asked about island prisons and the fact that UK prisons had placed NO VACANCIES cards in all of their front windows, rather like all the B&B places in Shanklin, Ventnor and other hotspots.Rather than embark on a programme of building new prisons, perhaps build more houses for the IOW people then do a swop. In line with the current trend of dumbing down everything and a one size fits all celebrity list, maybe a celebrity prison governor, swopping over from time to time. How about the speaker Michael Martin for a first celeb prison governor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsole Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 [quote user="Weedon"]Artsole, my suggestion for the IOW was simply in reply to the O/P which asked about island prisons and the fact that UK prisons had placed NO VACANCIES cards in all of their front windows, rather like all the B&B places in Shanklin, Ventnor and other hotspots.Rather than embark on a programme of building new prisons, perhaps build more houses for the IOW people then do a swop. In line with the current trend of dumbing down everything and a one size fits all celebrity list, maybe a celebrity prison governor, swopping over from time to time. How about the speaker Michael Martin for a first celeb prison governor?[/quote]Weedon, can I have some of what your 'taking'[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weedon Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Divine inspiration Art, I just look upon it as a gift. I sort of sit down to type and the words just flow, occasionally I thank god for putting me in this position.I suppose when you think about it we come back to Michael Martin, and others in similar positions where they have been given the keys to the safe deposit box. Prisons are for suckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 Go to...........".thisislondon.co.uk..."......headline "Jack Straw evicts 600 prison officers from their homes...and moves convicts in to ease jails crisis ".....warders to leave state owned property by May the 1st........Sorry cant put link on ...havent learned how to do it yet....... read the comments from posters from around the world on this jem ..... they think we are Mad .....and they are right ....Edit by mod - link to article here : http://tinyurl.com/ypanby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 Artsole ....if it helps google "jack Straw sells prison homes " it will pop up ...... the Evening News " this is london site " has moved the article off the web site front page for other news.....google finds it easier than searching the Evening News site .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Here is the link, Frederick : http://tinyurl.com/ypanbyOooh it's a biggie. I've reported it to the mods!(Changed to the link I used - Russethouse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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