hunting - then integration?

[Catalpa]

[quote user="odile"]...remains are fed to the dogs- including dogs who do not have the lust for hunting.

[/quote]

Ridiculous statements like that completely devalue what I believe are serious animal welfare concerns. If you can't argue important issues such as this without resorting to lunatic fringe assertions, I think you damage the cause that you apparently espouse.

[Panda]

So what is the post about, I live in rural France where hunting takes place, I do not like it and my neighbours know that and I couldn't give a damn what they think, nor did I in the UK where once again I lived in a rural area.  It doesn't stop you integrating , in either country, what utter rubbish.    Things like this might have mattered locally years ago and may have made you some enemies, but I say once again, are you stuck in some kind of time warp Odile, around these parts women get the vote, you can disagree with your neighbours leisure pursuits too but they don't hold it against you!

I'm with Catalpa on this, stupid comments about what you think people know about this subject are insulting and not the least helpful to the cause.  

[Russethouse]

odile, as a past member of the LACs all I can say is I think you are going off at a tangent.

Hunting for the pot is probably better for the animal in many cases than factory farming. Unless you actually know for certain that people in a certain area take part in cubbing and baiting I just don't get your argument.

[odile]

sadly, I know for certain.  So does the RSPCA and the police wildlife inspector. Sadly, I know there are many people out there who feel as I do - but being mocked and insulted is not their cup of tea. Mine neither, so over and out. A bon entendeur

[Russethouse]

I thought you were talking about France ?

[Clair]

[quote user="odile"][...] I couldn't live where there is child labour, or abuse of women .... or animals. [/quote][quote user="odile"]sadly, I know for certain.  So does the RSPCA and the police wildlife inspector.[...] [/quote]

I'm not sure I understand this. [8-)]

Does the OP live in the UK, where there is fox hunting and badger baiting...?

If not, where does the OP live?

Where is this paradise where there is no "child labour, or abuse of women .... or animals"?

[odile]

the OP since you insist on calling me that despite being fully aware of my name, was born and bred on Swiss/French border, has lived in UK since 1970, and spends part time in house on Swiss/French border in Jura mountains. Badger digging/baiting goes on both in UK- where it is illegal- I have seen the results of many cases very close to home- and in France where digging is legal and where many competitions take place. As the Badger Trust, LACS, RSPCA, police wildlife staff and many others are now making it more and more difficult for them to operate, an international tourism trade is growing. UK badger diggers/baiters now travel to Ireland, France and East European countries, where competitions are also organised.  There is no true paradise on earth- but there is a big difference between allowing cruelty/abuse to take place legally, or criminal acts taking place unfrequently and abhorred by most. If you find my English ambiguous, and your French is much better than my English, please feel free if that helps. By the way, what is the French word for 'bullying'?

[Clair]

No bullying intended, just a simple request for clarification.

In one post, you say you will not live where there is abuse, in another you mention the RSPCA (a UK organisation), being aware of fox hunting and badger bating.

Do you live in the UK?

[Russethouse]

>>By the way, what is the French word for 'bullying'?<<

There is no bullying, but I am sure you know as someone passionately against hunting, that a clear argument works best. If you start attacking 'scatter gun' it just muddies the issues and makes it confusing to follow.

By the way OP is a common abbreviation on this and many forums which stands for original poster.

[odile]

I thought I had explained  clearly that I have been living in the UK since 1970 and currently live partly in UK and partly on SwissFrench border, in the Jura mountains. You are not the bully Clair- read above threads for clarification.  This thread was about integration, in France, in areas where hunting is a major pastime for a significant (mostly male) part of the population. I tried to counter unpleasant/mocking/rude comments with examples from both countries, as my life is shared between both.

[odile]

Russethouse the points raised by myself have all been in direct reply to comments made.

[WJT]

Perhaps I'm missing something but I just don't understand why some people, even a few like minded souls are taking such offence. Obviously Odile does feel very passionately about badger baiting. Luckily I have never seen or experienced this barbarism first hand but if I had Odile's comments would seem very mild in comparison.[:'(]

For some reason it appears some do take offence when someone becomes passionate and very upset about something and perhaps it is natural to not want to know. I for one can understand Odiles upset about this cruelty toward an animal she and her children have become fascinated with and hope with more people like her willing to bring it to light will bring about change.

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/208947291_d32c4719c6.jpg[/IMG]

[Boiling a frog]

Has the OP produced any facts that badger baiting goes on in her desired region of France or is it just a general rant about badger baiting.Also it is very relevant as she wanted to know if one could integrate where these practices were in vogue.If they are not in her region what is the problem

[Jacqui Too]

I wish I had not got involved with this thread[:-))]

But I did! and have followed it from the start. The OP is passionate about HER badger baiting feelings, as we all are when it comes to cruelty to animals, BUT who is she trying to convert, no-one has apposed her views only the way that she insists in shoving it down our throats at every opportunity, this is what is grating at me anyway!

Odile, you posed a question and I answered it at the start of this thread with what I thought was good advice and I tried to stay out of the rights and wrongs of hunting, but I feel you have now turned your thread into some kind of soapbox for your personal anti hunting campaign which I want no part of.

I have listened to these arguments many times from both sides and have found them all futile, no-one wins.

As far as I know there are no badger baiters on this forum, we do not need gruesome descriptions as to what goes on at a baiting site, so why do you continue to tell us?[:@]  

[Catalpa]

Odile has previously about badger digging in France. It does happen. Unfortunately.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1232820/ShowPost.aspx

[Catalpa]

[quote user="WJT"]

Perhaps I'm missing something but I just don't understand why some people, even a few like minded souls are taking such offence. Obviously Odile does feel very passionately about badger baiting. <snip>

For some reason it appears some do take offence when someone becomes passionate and very upset about something and perhaps it is natural to not want to know.

[/quote]

It's not a question of taking offence. For me it is exasperation that genuine animal welfare issues are hi-jacked and degraded by people repeating extreme examples and myths in order - in their opinion - to educate and mobilise.

Many of the anti- posts in this discussion are addressed to people who need convincing of the horrors of hunting and particularly badger digging / baiting. I'm quite convinced that no one reading this thread and even no one on this forum needs to have an overwrought description of animal abuse in front of them in order to form a reasoned opinion against it. I do believe that over-enthusiastic "passion" can turn people off and it certainly hinders logical, reasoned debate.

This topic started off on the premise that someone could never live in a place where hunting takes place. Hunting, depending on your view, may be barbaric but only extreme - and irrational - prejudice would lead anyone to the proposition that "hunting makes all hunters fundamentally bad people". It's simply daft.

So. You don't like hunting in France? How do entrenched / cultural attitudes get changed? By education and influence. By questioning and making someone think about what they do. If you're sitting next to someone who hunts and you abhor it, rational discussion may begin to influence the way they think. "Passionate" statements won't. Histrionic statements make the anti- argument easy to ignore. Things aren't changed by lobbing passion at people on this forum who're already at least partly onside - things are changed by reasoned discussion within - with French people who do hunt. I find the excuse of "passion" irritating. Often, it's a cop out and here, it's certainly the easy option. It seeks to bypass the discipline needed for thoughtful, rational discussion.

As for mobilising us against badger-digging / baiting specifically - as that has been proven here and elsewhere to be a particular interest of the OP: where are the links to petitions we can sign, addresses to where we can send letters (or donations) in order to fight abuses such as this?

Passion and ranting is all very well but unless underpinned with facts and substance it's too easy to dismiss as simple self-indulgence.

[Russethouse]

Catalpa, I agree, although the legislation against fox hunting etc is not ideal it was hard won by people who went down a path of getting legislation changed, step by step. Persuading the Labour party to include the legislation in their manifesto, getting the RSPCA to back the bill, getting parlimentary time, it was a long slow process.

If Odile knows of badger baiting in the UK she should report it to the police as it is illegal, and press for prosecution.

 http://www.diggingout.org/badger_baiting.html

If she finds it in France she should join a group who are against it and start agitating for a change in the law.

In my experience emotional, passionate rants, whether on the internet or in person, don't move the argument or cause forward, one jot. Reason does.

[odile]

Russethouse- nothing can describe how you feel when you turn up at one of your local setts one evening, with your young daughters, and find all the holes blocked bar 2 which have been turned into a pit. Then realise the backfill is full of the bits left over from the animals and their cubs you watched with delight a few nights before. I also found 2 £20 notes- which were given to the local Badger Group. Again I won;t describe the details, and anyway this thread was not about this at all. In the UK it is illegal, and of course we work in close liaison with the police and other bodies. But it IS legal in France, and very popular. And those in Allier and Burgundy must have heard about it because of the recent competitions. I am sure many would find it hard to hear neighbours boast about the contest and their prowess. When I communicated with French people trying to stop the competitions from going ahead- several wrote to me to say that they were inundated with British who left UK after the hunt ban to settle in France to continue their pursuits. I told them they were surely mistaken and didn;t take it seriously. I do wonder now though. Many on this forum are Britsh born and living in France. Many travel between 2 homes- for me I was born in Switzerland yards from the border- and after 37 years in Uk, will be going back to my Jura mountains soon. So naturally 'one' draws experiences/comments from all parts of one's life. If we talked 'plumbing', I am posters will say things like 'in the UK we did this- but in F. we do it that way. Quite simply and naturally, like switching from several languages, or driving on right or left. I do not believe I have ranted. And if this thread has made people aware that there are some forms of hunting (and I did say that I can understand hunting for the pot- and do agree that it is much better than factory farming in many ways) that goes on possible close to you which are particularly cruel. Very few people actually know what is involved in badger digging, so a (very tame) description was required. If it has made even one person aware of the realities of it all, and aware that is is still perfecgly legal in France- then it was worth it. Even if it was not my intention when started this thread that it would lead there.  if anybody is stuck in a timewarp, it is those who feel that 'venerie' is an ancient tradition worth keeping - (and those who ask ladies to withdraw when it's time for port and cigars, and interesting conversation... but that's another story that one poster dragged in).  Bullying - (I think some language used by posters justify the word)what is the French word for it?

[odile]

what a fantastic picture WJT - and again I am so grateful for your kind and supportive comments.

It is true that mocking and insulting people who put forward ideas you do not either understand, or understand only too well, or NOT want to know about - is a lot easier. I wonder how many people have ever seen badger cubs at play? magical.

[Chancer]

Odile

You confuse me very much[8-)]

You start this thread asking "how difficult is it to integrate into rural France if you hate hunting?" yet then go on to describe exactly what it is like and how you cannot bear to live in such an area in either country.

You confirm that you are French, invite posters to reply in French, yet ask the question more than once "what is the French word for bully?)  - answer - "brimer"

You would do better to ask or look up the definition of bully or brimer, IMO you have not encountered any on this thread.

At one stage you asked me if I knew what was involved in badger baiting and did I want you to explain it, I refrained as I didnt want to encourage you to post something which may upset others (although you may PM me as I am always willing to listen and learn from the opinions of others) I had an inkling that you would go ahead and describe it anyway. 

I have only been priveledged enough to see a badger twice in my life, once the other night returning from my girlfriends a blaireau was crossing the road, il a eu de la chance car le plupart des gens de mon coin aurait le frapper et tuer pour la plaisir.

The other time some twenty years ago I passed by one lying dead on the grass verge, he did not look injured and I think he had passed away peacefully, sadly before my return journey a tractor had cut the verge and hedge with a rottaing cutter and what remained did not look as beautifull.

[odile]

I have worked as a translator and teacher of French (mothertongue), English and German degree subject + environmental Studies (no surprise thre, hey) all my life - but 'brimer' just doesn't properly describe bullying. It is one case where English has a much better word to describe a whole range of behaviour/s, with no proper equivalent in French.

Thank you for slowing down for that badger.

[Christine Animal]

Odile, I admire your stand, even if the way you present it gets on some people's nerves.  But then don't we all at times.  I wasn't really aware of this badger digging, simply because I had not followed it, until you brought it to light.  Not everyone is aware of everything, until someone "carries on about it".

Why don't you join us at the Rassemblement Antichasse, or some such organisation.  They will surely be able to inform you all about it in your area.

http://www.antichasse.com/ChasseFrance/Deterrage/Deterrage.html

 

Catalpa, in the link you mentioned to Odile's previous post on badgers, she did ask people to write to the maire of the town concerned.

 

(I no longer eat meat after seeing the videos made public by people wanting to show what the animals go through, so this type of thing does have an impact).

 

[Panda]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Odile, I admire your stand, even if the way you present it gets on some people's nerves.  But then don't we all at times.  [/quote]

Sometimes we all do indeed Christine, but some seem to have the knack of always doing it!

For me it's Odiles manner that annoys, it's the assumption on every post I' ve read that she is in the know and we are all in the dark on these subjects.  Perhaps it is because english is not her mother tongue??

[Christine Animal]

Sorry about that Panda.  Odile has her way of expressing herself, we can accept that, can't we?

 

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Sorry about that Panda.  Odile has her way of expressing herself, we can accept that, can't we?

 

[/quote]

Of course we can Christine, but it gets a bit tiring when others, who reply in a similar tone, get more or less accused of being bullies.

Anyway, back on topic.  I think the answer to Odiles original post came in the first reply from Jaqui.