Inheritance

[horsnail]

My wife to be, and I intend buying in France, with a view to holidaying for 4 years until retirement, and then retiring there full time at 65 and 63 years respectively.

Our problem is this, we will marry, we have 2 children of our own, and 2 from my wife, 1 through previous marriage and 1 illigitimate. I understand there are ways to protect the property, so that either of us can live there until our death, if one predeceases the other. Given this, if the survivor wishes to return to Great Britain/Scotland, I assume the French inheritance law is invoked and the survivor cannot sell and retain possession of their property/worldly goods. Does it revert to 25% to survivor and 75% to children. We have no wish to disinherit our children, any of them, but wish to retain our property and goods/money until death of last survivor and our will comes into play.

Legal advice would be most welcome, at present it does not look as though we can realise our dream.

[AnOther]

A situation which many find themselves in.

To the best of my knowledge for French residents there is no practical way to disinherit your children. If on the other hand the survivor returns to UK on 1st death then as a UK resident French inheritance law becomes irrelevent and he/she is free to dispose of the property and keep the entire proceeds.

Frankly I'm not sure how it works anyhow. I do not recall being asked whether we had children or not when we bought our house so if/when one of us dies if neither of our kids pop up to make or register a claim aginst their share of our property, which they definitely would not, who exactly is going to enforce the inheritance rules or, put another way, if nobody actually knows you have children, or other potential inheritors, inheritance issues simply do not arise do they ?

[Rdupre]

You might be able to realize your dream if you each make French wills, leaving as much as possible to the surviving spouse, the rest to your children but giving the spousal survivor the usefruit (usefruct) of the property until his/her death.

Someone with more knowledge concerning French inheritance law can guide you on this.

[Will]

The only person who can advise is a lawyer with comprehensive knowledge of French inheritance law, you will have to use one when buying your house but it's always a good idea to get another opinion because French notaires can't be relied on to always give the best advice. Don't rely solely on other people's experience or forum advice because there are so many variables and every situation is different.

Bear in mind that French inheritance law (and taxation) has to apply to immovable property on French soil (i.e. houses and land) whether or not you are French resident; if you are fiscally domiciled in France then the French will want to apply the law to all of your assets; so if you retain a house in England, for example, you need to tread carefully and take further specialist advice.

There are ways to protect a surviving spouse or partner's life interest in the house (so they can't be chucked out by either partner's children), but after their death the normal succession law has to take its course. Usufruit and tontine are words you will come across; the marriage regime for married partners also has a bearing, and a few years ago a change of marriage regime was frequently recommended but under current law a simple tontine has pretty much the same result at far lower cost. The law does change; what looks best now might not be so good in a few years time. Being married gives far more security than unmarried, though if you insist on remaining unmarried you can enter into a legal partnership which offers some protection.

You may be told that the answer is to form a company to own the house. This can be a good solution if several unrelated people buy together, or if you are not resident in France, but if it is deemed that the arrangement exists solely to avoid inheritance law and/or tax it can be set aside. There can also be tax implications (I believe the current France/UK double taxation agreement avoids this, but things can change).

You need to look at both the legal and fiscal implications of whatever you choose to do. French inheritance tax can be somewhat more punitive than English.

[Judith]

We have similar problems (don't we all!) and are currently going through a consultation with a notaire, prior to buying another house and writing French wills, who has given  us several options to chose from to achieve the result we want - in various degrees of rapprochement - (surprisingly accepting our wishes which are contra-French succession rules), and we have chosen an unusual and never before now suggested option, which gives us the nearest we can get to our desired solution.  We could not have found this on our own, and none of the (many) books or previous consultations - or advice on this forum - gave us this solution.

So, it can be done, but you need to find a notaire willing to explore the possible options with you.  People on this forum (unless they are notaires - and that I doubt), will not have the current legal knowledge to advise.  And as has been said, you will need one in France if / when you buy.  Shop around, and find a notaire you like and who helps you to find the correct solution for you.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Judith"]We have similar problems (don't we all!)[/quote]No [;-)]

Single marriage and 2 kids who would not not dream of taking advantage or trying to profit after a death.

They know they will get the property and whats left of the estate in the end.

[Hereford]

Re post above from Another:

Ditto !!

[parsnips]

[quote user="horsnail"]My wife to be, and I intend buying in France, with a view to holidaying for 4 years until retirement, and then retiring there full time at 65 and 63 years respectively.

Our problem is this, we will marry, we have 2 children of our own, and 2 from my wife, 1 through previous marriage and 1 illigitimate. I understand there are ways to protect the property, so that either of us can live there until our death, if one predeceases the other. Given this, if the survivor wishes to return to Great Britain/Scotland, I assume the French inheritance law is invoked and the survivor cannot sell and retain possession of their property/worldly goods. Does it revert to 25% to survivor and 75% to children. We have no wish to disinherit our children, any of them, but wish to retain our property and goods/money until death of last survivor and our will comes into play.

Legal advice would be most welcome, at present it does not look as though we can realise our dream.[/quote]

Hi,

       Your problem is complex but as always there will be a more or less acceptable solution.

As others have said , you will need a notaire to purchase your house , so any solution can be discussed with him. It follows that it essential to find a good, preferably recommended ,notaire who is ENGLISH-FLUENT.

       I do not agree with those who down-play the advice given on these forums, as it is important, before meeting the notaire, to know what solutions may be possible . If you are not aware of the , often numerous, options available, you are likely to get an "off-the-peg" formula , suitable for a french family , but not necessarily for you.

       Your relationship with ALL the children is important. If you all get on well together , you can arrange your succession almost without restriction using a "pacte successoriale" in conjunction with mutual "legs residuel". This may be what Judith is referring to. (You can PM me for more detail--but remember the notaire should be the true expert--it must be said that some are not up to much--if yours appears negative --find another. Don't start house purchase until you are satisfied with the notaire's suggestions for your succession .)

        If any of the children is not prepared to co-operate fully , then the Tontine will ensure that the survivor receives the house outright, and if they sell the french house and return to the UK they can then arrange for all the children to receive their shares. If however the survivor should die before doing this , only their natural offspring will inherit--although, again they would , if willing , be able to compensate the others , in the UK.

       If there are significant assets in addition to the house,you can ensure that the survivor inherits everything by adopting the french marriage regime of "communauté universelle", but the notaire will probably wish to notify all the children of their rights to challenge this at the time of the succession. Even if they did challenge the succession , the survivor will still hold a life-interest in the whole of the deceased's estate and , of course , still owns their own part outright.  In the case of cash and investments ,a clause of "QUASI-USUFRUIT" inserted in the acte ensures that the survivor has virtually full ownership and disposal.   

[WJT]

Very interesting Parsnips and very helpful. Unfortunately, when we bought our house in 04, we thought it may be easier for all concerned to use the same Notaire as the sellers also advised by our agent. It was a big mistake, not that I think he is a poor one, I wouldn't know but he doesn't speak any English and it has been very difficult for us. At the time the Tontine was a problem with tax implications and we were advised by the agent and an English solicitors group that looked at the contract before we signed it to change our marital regime to a Communate Universal (sorry about the spelling, been a long time!). I have had to hire an advocate for small advice on another situation with the farmer cutting our grass because I cannot speak to the Notaire properly.

I know we are not in the right situation inheritance wise but it would not be possible to discuss with our Notaire.[:(]

[Will]

There are definite advantages to using a single notaire when buying a house, but it is not compulsory, and you are at liberty to appoint a second notaire. They share the work, and thus the fees, while there is only only one lot of taxes etc (which make up most of what you pay) so it will cost you nothing extra.

There's no such thing as 'your' notaire; many French people may, through custom or laziness, stick with the same practice for all family matters but you are at liberty to go to any notaire you want. All are, effectively, government officials and so are meant to be impartial, upholding the law and collecting taxes rather than representing either party in a house sale.

A good compromise might be to ask the notaire handling your house sale (though a translator if necessary) about inheritance, then ask another, English-speaking one, for confirmation or further advice. This should not cost a lot, initial consultations are generally free.

I would agree with Parsnips that following the discussions on forums can be very useful in formulating the questions you want to ask and making yourself aware of at least some of the terms and their basic meanings. You should never rely on it totally though - a proper legal opinion should always take precedence.

[parsnips]

[quote user="WJT"]

Very interesting Parsnips and very helpful. Unfortunately, when we bought our house in 04, we thought it may be easier for all concerned to use the same Notaire as the sellers also advised by our agent. It was a big mistake, not that I think he is a poor one, I wouldn't know but he doesn't speak any English and it has been very difficult for us. At the time the Tontine was a problem with tax implications and we were advised by the agent and an English solicitors group that looked at the contract before we signed it to change our marital regime to a Communate Universal (sorry about the spelling, been a long time!). I have had to hire an advocate for small advice on another situation with the farmer cutting our grass because I cannot speak to the Notaire properly.

I know we are not in the right situation inheritance wise but it would not be possible to discuss with our Notaire.[:(]

[/quote]

Hi,

  As Will says you are not tied to any particular notaire.  Find a good english- fluent one (preferably through personal recommendation) and discuss your succession situation with him/her. 

[Judith]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="Judith"]We have similar problems (don't we all!)[/quote]No [;-)]

Single marriage and 2 kids who would not not dream of taking advantage or trying to profit after a death.

They know they will get the property and whats left of the estate in the end.

[/quote]

Don't be patronising, Ernie - not all of us have been as happy as you obviously were with your first choice.  And (sadly) statistically, I believe, you are in the minority,  as is my sister.  I would have been entirely delighted to have been in the same situation as you are, but life does not always pan out in the way you would have preferred, and it is how you cope when it does just that, which makes what might be a disaster for some, turn out to be the best option for others. 

And, from the numbers of posts on this subject on the forum, my comment was justified - I am certainly not alone in having a more complicated family arrangement than yours.

[dragonrouge]

If life was as simple as one single marriage then children only from that marriage. But life is not like that. I do not have children my wife does from a previous marriage so when I go I go and that is it.

A statistic left us today in his beloved France and worldwide assets of £ as in The Times.

Rubbish to that will do everything whilst we are living to help the 'family' but dead man's shoes is not my way and if you are ever valued as to the amount of your estate?

My wife's children will have our investments in the UK our life here in France is for us.

[Judith]

[quote user="parsnips"]

As others have said , you will need a notaire to

purchase your house , so any solution can be discussed with him. It

follows that it essential to find a good, preferably recommended

,notaire who is ENGLISH-FLUENT.

Agree - some are not as fluent as they confess

to be, it took us some time to find one. We chose one recommended to us

by English friends who could confirm the level of English spoken after

they had used her) to do our wills (hopefully signing them tomorrow!),

and we are using a different notaire, a

French friend, who does not speak English,

to do the house purchase for us, using advice on how to buy it given by the other notaire.

      

I do not agree with those who down-play the advice given on these

forums, as it is important, before meeting the notaire, to know what

solutions may be possible . If you are not aware of the , often

numerous, options available, you are likely to get an "off-the-peg"

formula , suitable for a french family , but not necessarily for you.

OK, maybe I was a bit harsh here, but there is no way

anyone on this forum can be as up to date as a notaire.  I do agree that

finding out the possible options first is an excellent suggestion.  I

thought I had done so, but the final "solution" was not one of the one's

I had found out  about.  And I suspect

that our solution may be one used by quite a lot of French families.

 

     Your relationship with ALL the children is important. If you all

get on well together , you can arrange your succession almost without

restriction using a "pacte successoriale" in conjunction with mutual

"legs residuel". This may be what Judith is referring to.

It wasn't - a pacte successorial was not possible - nor

was it sensible to change our marriage contract, but usufruit does come

into it ... but I say again, our situation was different from the one

under discussion, which is why I did not go into details of it as it

would not have been appropriate here.

           

[/quote]

[AnOther]

I wasn't being patronising in the slightest Judith, you made a very sweeping comment which I countered, nothing more.

I'm sure everybody embarked on their first marriage with good intent and expectations and for some it worked out thus, for others not.

As for being in the minority, compared to the current generation perhaps, but in terms of those of a similar age (59), amongst the couples we know, both here and  in UK, we are most certainly not.

[Richard51]

We're in the same boat as you AnOther - very straightforward, one marriage and all three kids are ours...though we would sell a couple if there are any takers...?  They're at that delightful 'Kevin' age - which in our case seems to have lasted well into their twenties.  Nevertheless we are still aiming for plan B - spend as much of it as we can before they put the final nails in the little wooden boxes.  We reckon we deserve it!! [:D]

[Polly]

Beat you for simplicity Ernie: one marriage and NO kids!

[dragonrouge]

But do not forget the cats and dogs and chickens

[Polly]

NO CHICKENS AND NO CATS

[WJT]

Thank you Will and Parsnips for the advice. It may be something we will need to do at some stage but would be awkward though because our current Notaire has all of our paperwork and information and he was the one that changed our marriage regime. However, it is probably something we will have to do. Thanks again.

[Judith]

[quote user="AnOther"]I wasn't being patronising in the slightest Judith, you made a very sweeping comment which I countered, nothing more.

......

As for being in the minority, compared to the current generation perhaps, but in terms of those of a similar age (59), amongst the couples we know, both here and  in UK, we are most certainly not.

[/quote]

OK, sorry, but somehow it did sound like that to me.  Whilst I agree that it was a sweeping statement, there do seem to be a lot of couples I know, who are all in the age bracket you mention (or thereabouts), who are on second marriages, so with that and the posters on the forum, it was I think an educated guess.  And I am sure that I have seen stats that say second marriages are more and more common .....

[dragonrouge]

Also those on third marriages.

[Polly]

[quote user="Judith"][quote user="AnOther"]I wasn't being patronising in the slightest Judith, you made a very sweeping comment which I countered, nothing more.

......

As for being in the minority, compared to the current generation perhaps, but in terms of those of a similar age (59), amongst the couples we know, both here and  in UK, we are most certainly not.

[/quote]

OK, sorry, but somehow it did sound like that to me.  Whilst I agree that it was a sweeping statement, there do seem to be a lot of couples I know, who are all in the age bracket you mention (or thereabouts), who are on second marriages, so with that and the posters on the forum, it was I think an educated guess.  And I am sure that I have seen stats that say second marriages are more and more common .....

[/quote]

Maybe we need a poll on the forum to find out! But then it would have to cover up to how many marriages per person, and if it only dealt with marriages rather than same-sex partnerships would we all get told off?

Is forum membership representative of the country? And which country? Most, but not all, posters seem to be in France or the UK.

[horsnail]

Thanks for all the help on this subject, given what I have heard, the best way forward appears to be an Fluent English speaking Notaire and ditto a Solicitor who knows all up to date laws on inheritance and 'ways' around them, by law, to help us resolve our problem. ''The thorny question is still unresolved as to whether the survivor can inherit all,on the death of partner, sell said property and return to UK if that is their wish, retaining all sale proceeds''. The children (all) would still retain their inheritance when the survivor died, through terms of our will in the UK. (or France if the survivor stayed there, circumstances later would dictate that)

Neil Dunbar

[parsnips]

[quote user="horsnail"]Thanks for all the help on this subject, given what I have heard, the best way forward appears to be an Fluent English speaking Notaire and ditto a Solicitor who knows all up to date laws on inheritance and 'ways' around them, by law, to help us resolve our problem. ''The thorny question is still unresolved as to whether the survivor can inherit all,on the death of partner, sell said property and return to UK if that is their wish, retaining all sale proceeds''. The children (all) would still retain their inheritance when the survivor died, through terms of our will in the UK. (or France if the survivor stayed there, circumstances later would dictate that)

Neil Dunbar[/quote]

Hi,

       I don't think I made it clear in my reply to your PM, but with the "legs residuel" the primary beneficiary (unless otherwise stipulated in the will, or" pacte de famille" ) can sell the asset(s) and use the proceeds as they choose, with no obligation to compensate the secondary beneficiaries.

P.