carter Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 We bought a house in Languedoc in 2005. There had been a dispute going on since 1969 between the previous owners and the neighbour about a window overlooking the neighbours roof. The notaire advised us that they could hold back 3000euros of the sale money on our behalf to cover any costs should we be forced to change the window at a later date. The house has been empty for the last 5 years: we haven't finished restoring it! We had heard nothing of this matter since the sale was completed, up to now. We live in England. This week (Feb 2011) we were served with a notice at our England home from the Montpellier court of appeal telling us that we have two months to appoint a lawyer to represent us as defendants in a forthcoming appeal case against a judgement that had been made in 2009 at the Beziers court, where we were found guilty of forming the illegal window along with the family members of the previous owners (who did actually make the window). As we read the notice we found that the Beziers court had ordered us in April 2009 (in our absence as we knew nothing of these proceedings) to block up the window immediately or pay 200euros a day compensation! It had also ordered us and the previous owners to pay 2000euros fine and all the neighbours' and the court's legal costs. Apparently we had been 'brought into the case' in 2006 by writ (which we did not receive) and lumped together with the previous owners of the house, who it seems did not attend the 2009 tribunal in Beziers and subsequently lodged an appeal to its decision which will be heard this year (2011) at Montpellier. We cannot understand how all this has happened without a single communication to us at our home address until this recent notice: our english address is the official one for all other matters connected to the French house, eg tax foncieres, EDF bills etc, so it is on record at the Mairie. I have visited the house several times over the last year and found no correspondence there. Apart from the address on the front of the appeal court notice we received this week, which is correctly our English home, there are two instances within the documents where our address is given as '9, rue Montmeroncy': this is bizarre as it is the address of the aggrieved neighbour's house! It seems someone has made an error which has resulted in our being condemned without the opportunity to defend ourselves. My questions are: how do we go about obtaining copies of the tribunal's April 2009 decision in the Beziers court, and of any notices we should have received before and after that decision? Is there any way we can solve this without having to apy a fortune to an avocat and avoue? Any advice would be welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbles Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'm afraid I can't offer any good advice but you have my heartfelt sympathy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Roy Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Personally I would look for an avocate as it sounds as though it would be well worth having them on your side to sort out this mess. We've had need of one in the past and were not charged a fortune by any means (under 1500 € for a great deal of help and support over a couple of years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'd tend to agree with Rob Roy. As far as legal costs are concerned, you can use the 3,000€ held back by your notaire to cover costs should you be forced to change the window at a later date......[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Not much help to you now but there was an ongoing dispute over a chemin when we bought our house and we made it a stipulation that the seller would be responsible for any and all costs until it was resolved. With no real way of knowing the potential cost I would not have been at all happy accepting some notional fixed sum to take ownership of it along with the property.Some 2 years or so later she finally lost on appeal and I'm pretty sure it cost her well over €3000 in the end.In truth it was an expensive much ado about nothing and was of little real consequence to us whichever way it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carter Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 @another: the notaire did add a clause into the sale agreement whereby the seller undertook to keep the dispute between him and the neighbour: the 3000euros 'was just in case', so I think the notaire knew that the responsibility for the window must fall on us in the end, and we were prepared to risk it as we thought the worst that can happen is we are ordered to change the window. we didn't envisage that the case would rumble on without us being notified that we were in the dock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Grim!I can't see how you can avoid visiting the Court in person (best to try to fix an appointment in advance!) and getting hold of a copy of all the documentation face-to-face. Regrettably, you're going to need an avocat to act for you and he / she will need that paperwork. Again, you've got to find somebody in advance and arrange an appointment for the day after your visit to the Court.This is sliding out of your control fast and you need to take decisive action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The judgment handed down by the tribunal de grand de grande instance in Beziers, amongst other things, requires you to pay 200 € per day whilst the window remains unblocked. The magnitude of the sum suggests that the court found the defence of the window vexatious and without any merit. As a result of the appeal the execution of the judgment will be stayed until the decision of the Court of Appeal; as of the end of February 2011 this represents a contingent liability of the order of € 134,000. The distinction should be made between real property rights and personal rights but I would think that from the date of completion of the sale in 2005 you would have enjoyed exclusive responsibility for the window; it would seem that you have been assigned/sued in 2006 and joined to an already existing action by the plaintiff in the TGI at Beziers previously taken against the previous owners of the property. The plaintiff would presumably have taken this action as you had taken no measures to resolve the existing window problem.The € 3,000 is probably no more than an indemnity to cover the work entailed in modifying the window and would presumably constitute a separate "acte authentique" annexed to the "acte de vente", recording the undertaking by the seller.Accordingly, in my opinion the appeal hearing is unlikely to hand down a judgment significantly different from the TGI in Beziers, so the plaintiff would then apply for execution of the matter in the TGI and the Court of Appeal. As a ball park figure maybe € 150,000 will be needed to satisfy all parties.By the way you will require an advocat and an avoué in the Court of Appeal; avoués will still be around until at least 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Roy Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Well, that's very comforting for the OP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debbie Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Carter: Not sure without more details but it sounds like the complaint may be from the nieghbor who is concerned about the window looking over their garage. Perhaps the best place to start is talking with them and see what you can work out as 'friendly' neighbors. If you can come to an amicable agreement, perhaps they would drop the suit (if they did in fact file the suit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman II Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="Rob Roy"]Well, that's very comforting for the OP![/quote]Get it covered up however roughly, get it photographed with a dated newspaper to show you cannot see out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 We know that the wheels of justice grind exceeding slow, even slower in France, can I be the only one who's astonished that this allegedly has been going on since 1969 [:'(]I think PPP is right concerning the separation of rights as in my own case, even though the costs were inarguably to be borne by the seller the dispute was transferred to me as the new owner of the property and the appeal judgement, when it finally came down, was against me.As for the neighbours droping it, I'd be surprised if they could do that without incurring significant court costs themselves so I wouldn't hold out too much hope on that front but I guess at this stage anything is worth a shot.I think whatever else I did or didn't do though I'd make sure that window was gone, and I mean gone - not just covered up ! A horrible situation to be in and I wish you luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Sam Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Personally, armed with the legal papers now in your possession, I'd be making concerted efforts to have the offending window removed as soon as possible and armed with this intention and your innocent ignorance to all that has happened previously, seek qualified legal advice as a matter of equal urgency as removal of the window.This is obviously causing you a great deal of worry, not helped by unqualified 'Barrack Room Lawyer' types making speculative guesses as to how much the action is likely to cost!I wish you well in your efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Surely, simple making the window opaque would be sufficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carter Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 @pachapapa: thanks for doing the maths but according to the neighbour's lawyer's 'conclusions' for the appeal, the penalty of 200euros per day was to begin one month after notification of the 2009 decision (which we have not received) and be imposed up to a limit of two months after which time further legal action may be taken. The window in question has been closed with a solid metal outer shutter completely covering it since 2005, the house being uninhabited with the occasional visit to do some building work, so technically there has been no breach of the code regarding overlooking a roof, unless the code specifies a particular method of 'blocking up' that this does not achieve. We have the local police declaration in writing that the house is uninhabitable, in order to be exempt from taxe d'habitation. Had we received the notice in 2006 bringing us into the case, we would have modified the window immediately, avoiding any tribunals or lawyers. Our aim now is to try to avoid the forthcoming appeal by simply paying the fine imposed by the 2009 tribunal and changing the window using the reserved funds. Do you think (as it sounds like you have some experience of these matters) that by doing this, the forthcoming appeal by the previous owner against the 2009 judgement should not involve us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="woolybanana"]Surely, simple making the window opaque would be sufficient?[/quote]No it would not be. What would be sufficient would be the compliance with the exact requirements specified by the judgment and duely communicated to the adversary/adversaries of the aggrieved party by signification. Basically the plaintiff gets a huissier to deliver the official papers "signifying" the decision of the tribunal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carter Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 I would hope so woolybanana and once we get the details of the 2009 judgement telling us exactly what to do, we'll do it. But as a result of losing the case in absentia we are now liable for court costs and penalties and to escape them we need to prove that we didn't receive any notice of anything before last wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carter Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 it is possible that a hussier as you describe was supposed to deliver the 2009 court findings to us: would the court have a record of this and confirmation that it was done, something we can ask for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The neighbours who are insisting on this sound like real b astards if the house is empty and the window blocked, effectively. Bullying, backed by the household legal protection policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="carter"]@pachapapa: thanks for doing the maths but according to the neighbour's lawyer's 'conclusions' for the appeal, the penalty of 200euros per day was to begin one month after notification of the 2009 decision (which we have not received) and be imposed up to a limit of two months after which time further legal action may be taken. The window in question has been closed with a solid metal outer shutter completely covering it since 2005, the house being uninhabited with the occasional visit to do some building work, so technically there has been no breach of the code regarding overlooking a roof, unless the code specifies a particular method of 'blocking up' that this does not achieve. We have the local police declaration in writing that the house is uninhabitable, in order to be exempt from taxe d'habitation. Had we received the notice in 2006 bringing us into the case, we would have modified the window immediately, avoiding any tribunals or lawyers. Our aim now is to try to avoid the forthcoming appeal by simply paying the fine imposed by the 2009 tribunal and changing the window using the reserved funds. Do you think (as it sounds like you have some experience of these matters) that by doing this, the forthcoming appeal by the previous owner against the 2009 judgement should not involve us?[/quote]Sorry if my post was a bit trenchant on the € 200 per diem point, but the possible implications required clarifying, I am glad to read that there was a maximum of two months. At least now it falls within the limits of "proportionality" inherent in european law generally. The shutter on the window and the other circumstances of being uninhabited would suggest that the aggrieved plaintiff would have received no prejudice during your possession of the house warranting an award for damages and interests; however the court/tribunal would only be satisfied with a permanent arrangement. A question the Code Civil requires that an opening, for example a window, must be NOT LESS than 1.90 metres from the boundary line between the properties; it seems incredible that the previous owner would have engaged in constructing an opening contrary to the provisions of Art 678 of the Code Civil. For some reason the previous owner must have thought he had a reasonable case to plead in Beziers.How to get out...I was at a Mexican Night at the village hall until early this morning...got a hang over...brain ticking slowly...I'll delve into the Code of Civil Procedure in the morning.[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiseau Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It seems extraordinary that such important court information can be sent somewhere so casually, while just cancelling one's insurance etc requires letters "avec avis de reception".Good luck with it, Carter. I hope you find a reasonably harmonious way out. Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Loiseau"] It seems extraordinary that such important court information can be sent somewhere so casually, while just cancelling one's insurance etc requires letters "avec avis de reception".Good luck with it, Carter. I hope you find a reasonably harmonious way out. Angela[/quote]Although there appear to be problems with the case in the thread the normal situation for the "signification" is fairly robust; that said, often the party with "gain de cause" will wait for more than two months before engaging a huissier; this is the period within which an appeal must be lodged. If there is no appeal,the winner can then use the huissier to move directly to signification and execution at the same time. So it is possible that there was never a delivery of the signification.http://www.huissiersdejustice-hp.com/Modsignif.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carter Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 pachapapa: yes the appeal was lodged in May 2009 by our 'co-defendent' the previous owner, so within the two month period: can this mean that the 2009 judgement was never officially notified to anyone? An update this morning: I managed to get an emailed copy of the 2009 TGI Beziers judgement and we are indeed down as living at 9 rue montperoncy, the address of the plaintiff Grimal! The previous owners avocat was present in 2009 but obviously we were not represented: who would normally pass the court's decision on to us? Or is it assumed we must find out for ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Whilst in a tribunal d'instance any party can represent themselves this is not the case for a tribunal de grande instance where all parties must be represented by advocats. The fact that you had no advocat probably means that you were joined in the action with your co-defendant with a single advocat representing both of you. When you say WE were not represented do you mean you and your co-defendant; I find it impossible to believe that neither defendant had legal representation! The judgment of the court would probably have been deferred, as is customary in france, judgments are rarely delivered in court but will be collected by the interested parties from the Greffier of the court. There would have been no delivery of the judgment to you personally at your residence without the plaintiff engaging a huissier to do it. There may have been a mistake in the address for example, I presume No 9 is next door; however in the light of an appeal being made by someone, presumably your co-defendant, it would be onerous to contend that some "vice de forme" had occured as the lodging of the appeal would indicate that at least one of the defendants had knowledge of the judgment. Just to clear the doubt! Did your co-defendant have an advocat at the TGI hearing and indeed did he also attend?P.S. The greffier is the administrative point of contact for judgments and information on pending cases; one for the TGI in Beziers and another for the Appeal Court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Have you managed to find a lawyer yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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