Buyers' rights AFTER house has sold

[louisedaniel]

Can anyone help with this problem:

My parents (both English) - the most up front honest people you could find - sold a property in France last October to a couple (one English one French). They had lived there 10 years. The Compromis de Vent was signed 6 months previously so plenty of cooling off period. There is a feature in the house of rocks (real rocks, part of the landscape inside the house, at ground level) which seep water if it rains badly. The rain seeps onto quarry tiles so causes no damage. You simply have to mop it up with towels or put a bucket there. It's very obvious that this is likely to happen because the rocks are real rocks connected to the outside. My parents were totally open about this (verbally, in an email to the buyers English, plus the buyers looked freely around the house at least twice and could have asked questions then, plus a long period between signing of compromis de vent and completion). My parents are now being sued by the buyers who are saying they kept the leaks hidden which is simply not true. It would seem there were bad rains last autumn (Provence) the worse for some time - in fact all the neighbours suffered in a similar fashion. The buyers chose not to have a survey although I know this is not common practice in France.

It has to be said these buyers were a nightmare from start to finish... nitpicking every detail and in fact had pulled out of two previous sales at the last minute... the agent says she has never met people like them. None of this counts for anything, I realise.

Where can I find out the law on this. Given they didn't want a survey, given they have bought the house, can they do what they are doing? i.e. suing to pay for damage and to sort out the leaks - probably impossible if they want to keep the rocks (which are a very attractive, rustic feature).

The situation is that the court are appointing 'experts' to inspect the house and make a decision - which could potentially cost a fortune, if my parents lost - money they don't have - they are retired and live in France permanently (only one home).

Would be grateful for any insights or suggestions as to where to find info about this kind of situation. I speak French so ok with French sites.

Very many thanks indeed.

[Judie]

Here is a minor reference to viche caché http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/faq/12-vice-cache-et-achat-de-logement which I think your parents' buyers are referring to. Do you know if your parents put anything in writing to either the notaire or the estate agent?  This might help their case. Otherwise, it is the buyers word against your parents.

[NormanH]

As Judie says this is known as a 'vice caché'

http://www.vices-caches.com/vendeur-comment-vous-proteger.html

[JSKS]

How could a buyer follow this up if the sellers had returned to UK?

[AnOther]

[quote user="JK"]How could a buyer follow this up if the sellers had returned to UK?[/quote]

Read the post, "they are retired and live in France permanently (only one home)" but in any case situations like this can be pursued internationally.

********************

viche caché can be read literally as hidden vice or defect, something either deliberately concealed or which the seller should have reasonably known about and failed to mention.

Depending on the actual contents of course if your parents have emails referring to the rocks then it may be that they can blow the buyer out of the water at a stroke.

I think an honest impartial expert would likely tell them that if you have such natural 'features' then it's impossible to expect them not to allow damp into the property, or even running water under the right conditions. Keeping them on show but totally dry is probably an impossibility.

You do need to be a little careful with 'experts' though, especially those employed by complainants, as they can have a tendency to provide the client with a report confirming what they want

to hear. If your parents receive a copy of an adverse report from the buyers then they will have little choice but to employ their own expert to counter it.

After that is when it can get really messy [blink]

[Benjamin]

You don't say at what level your parents conversational French is. Given that they will be having a visit from an expert I feel it's absolutely vital that either they or someone else who is fluent (yourself maybe) is there at the appointment.

The buyers have already made their complaint, presumably in writing, so I would strongly resist their being present when the expert attends.

What has been the reaction from the Agent to all of this? They may be a witness to your parent's integrity in the sale.

[JSKS]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="JK"]How could a buyer follow this up if the sellers had returned to UK?[/quote]

Read the post, "they are retired and live in France permanently (only one home)" but in any case situations like this can be pursued internationally

[/quote]

Read the post and note the word ''if''. (Don't like using the imperative - it seems so patronising)

[AnOther]

Sorry but you seem to be speaking in riddles, what 'if' are you referring to, the OP doesn't even hint that they might be returning to UK ?

[JSKS]

[quote user="AnOther"]Sorry but you seem to be speaking in riddles, what 'if' are you referring to, the OP doesn't even hint that they might be returning to UK ?

[/quote]

A hypothetical situation that might be of interest to anyone reading this that is selling/has sold a house and returned to UK.  And that would be writing in riddles.

[JSKS]

[quote user="louisedaniel"]Can anyone help with this problem:

My parents (both English) - the most up front honest people you could find - sold a property in France last October to a couple (one English one French). They had lived there 10 years. The Compromis de Vent was signed 6 months previously so plenty of cooling off period. There is a feature in the house of rocks (real rocks, part of the landscape inside the house, at ground level) which seep water if it rains badly. The rain seeps onto quarry tiles so causes no damage. You simply have to mop it up with towels or put a bucket there. It's very obvious that this is likely to happen because the rocks are real rocks connected to the outside. My parents were totally open about this (verbally, in an email to the buyers English, plus the buyers looked freely around the house at least twice and could have asked questions then, plus a long period between signing of compromis de vent and completion). My parents are now being sued by the buyers who are saying they kept the leaks hidden which is simply not true. It would seem there were bad rains last autumn (Provence) the worse for some time - in fact all the neighbours suffered in a similar fashion. The buyers chose not to have a survey although I know this is not common practice in France.

It has to be said these buyers were a nightmare from start to finish... nitpicking every detail and in fact had pulled out of two previous sales at the last minute... the agent says she has never met people like them. None of this counts for anything, I realise.

Where can I find out the law on this. Given they didn't want a survey, given they have bought the house, can they do what they are doing? i.e. suing to pay for damage and to sort out the leaks - probably impossible if they want to keep the rocks (which are a very attractive, rustic feature).

The situation is that the court are appointing 'experts' to inspect the house and make a decision - which could potentially cost a fortune, if my parents lost - money they don't have - they are retired and live in France permanently (only one home).

Would be grateful for any insights or suggestions as to where to find info about this kind of situation. I speak French so ok with French sites.

Very many thanks indeed.[/quote]

Just to get back on track.

There really isn't any choice but to bite the bullet and get personal legal advice from a specialist in property law.

[NormanH]

I think that some buyers are trying it on increasingly, possibly even more with English sellers who might not know this law.

I sold a place a year ago and the buyer called me claiming two 'vices cachés'.

One was in the shower room where the original plumbing was hidden behind a wall.  When he wanted to install something else he had problems with both the water supply and the runaway.

I pointed out that it wasn't a 'vice' because that plumbing had served perfectly well for 10 years for the purpose for which it was designed. It was only the extra stress he was putting on it which made it unsuitable.

The other was a slight leak in the roof of the second bedroom. With our climate (very few days of rain) it only showed up after three months.  However the tenant who had been living there had removed a square of plaster board to get access and patch it up, and that left an obvious hole in the ceiling...so in that case it was a 'vice' but it wasn't 'caché'

He had negotiated a reduction of 10,000€ on the purchase price anyway for 'travaux'. In retrospect I should have demanded the details of which 'travaux' as then there could be no doubt either as to his knowledge, not to the fact that the price he had paid reflected the existence of various things.

This is useful:

L’existence d’un vice caché suppose plusieurs conditions :

• 1. Le défaut doit empêcher l’utilisation du bien dans des
  conditions normales. Il peut aussi être d’une telle importance que
  l’acheteur n’aurait pas acquis le bien s’il en avait connu l’existence.

• 2. Le défaut doit être inconnu de l’acheteur au moment de la
  vente. A condition naturellement qu’il ait quand même procédé à un
  minimum de vérifications...

• 3. Le défaut doit être antérieur à la livraison du bien.

L’existence d’un vice caché permet à l’acheteur de mettre en œuvre deux types d’actions.

• 1. Soit il intente une action “rédhibitoire” : il restitue le
  bien contre le remboursement de la somme versée, assortie des éventuels
  frais liés à la vente. C’est naturellement très difficile dans le cas
  d’une transaction immobilière.

• 2. Soit il intente une action “estimatoire” : il demande une
  diminution du prix payé, éventuellement en faisant appel à un expert.

Outre la restitution ou la diminution du prix, l’acheteur peut aussi

demander en justice des dommages-intérêts s’il estime avoir subi un

préjudice. Mais seul le vendeur de mauvaise foi peut être condamné à

verser des dommages-intérêts.

Est ainsi de mauvaise foi :

• 1. Le vendeur non-professionnel qui connaissait l’existence du vice au moment de la vente.

• 2. Tout vendeur professionnel, même s’il ignorait l’existence du vice.

[Judie]

[quote user="NormanH"]I think that some buyers are trying it on increasingly, possibly even more with English sellers who might not know this law.

I sold a place a year ago and the buyer called me claiming two 'vices cachés'.

One was in the shower room where the original plumbing was hidden behind a wall.  When he wanted to install something else he had problems with both the water supply and the runaway.

I pointed out that it wasn't a 'vice' because that plumbing had served perfectly well for 10 years for the purpose for which it was designed. It was only the extra stress he was putting on it which made it unsuitable.

The other was a slight leak in the roof of the second bedroom. With our climate (very few days of rain) it only showed up after three months.  However the tenant who had been living there had removed a square of plaster board to get access and patch it up, and that left an obvious hole in the ceiling...so in that case it was a 'vice' but it wasn't 'caché'

He had negotiated a reduction of 10,000€ on the purchase price anyway for 'travaux'. In retrospect I should have demanded the details of which 'travaux' as then there could be no doubt either as to his knowledge, not to the fact that the price he had paid reflected the existence of various things.

This is useful:

L’existence d’un vice caché suppose plusieurs conditions :

• 1. Le défaut doit empêcher l’utilisation du bien dans des
  conditions normales. Il peut aussi être d’une telle importance que
  l’acheteur n’aurait pas acquis le bien s’il en avait connu l’existence.

• 2. Le défaut doit être inconnu de l’acheteur au moment de la
  vente. A condition naturellement qu’il ait quand même procédé à un
  minimum de vérifications...

• 3. Le défaut doit être antérieur à la livraison du bien.

L’existence d’un vice caché permet à l’acheteur de mettre en œuvre deux types d’actions.

• 1. Soit il intente une action “rédhibitoire” : il restitue le
  bien contre le remboursement de la somme versée, assortie des éventuels
  frais liés à la vente. C’est naturellement très difficile dans le cas
  d’une transaction immobilière.

• 2. Soit il intente une action “estimatoire” : il demande une
  diminution du prix payé, éventuellement en faisant appel à un expert.

Outre la restitution ou la diminution du prix, l’acheteur peut aussi

demander en justice des dommages-intérêts s’il estime avoir subi un

préjudice. Mais seul le vendeur de mauvaise foi peut être condamné à

verser des dommages-intérêts.

Est ainsi de mauvaise foi :

• 1. Le vendeur non-professionnel qui connaissait l’existence du vice au moment de la vente.

• 2. Tout vendeur professionnel, même s’il ignorait l’existence du vice.

[/quote]

What you have quoted in french was in my link Norman, in the second post.

[NormanH]

Great minds then [:D]

[Judie]

Absolutely [:)][:)][:)]

[arkengarthdale]

In a vices cachés cases the onus is upon the buyer to prove the vendor concealed the problem from them.

Bloomin' great rocks in the house are, by their nature, hard to conceal and you wouldn't need to be a technical expert to deduce that they might introduce damp.

If you have emails to evidence that the vendors were told about the problem then I'd suggest their case is stone cold dead.

Get a lawyer to tell them to get lost. How did this ever get to court?

[louisedaniel]

They didn't, they bought in France again. Louise

[louisedaniel]

I totally agree. And that's what everyone they talk to thinks, except the buyers. It is incomprehensible. Anyway, they do have a lawyer ... just hope it's a good one. Louise

[louisedaniel]

Thanks to everyone for your help. I will let you know what happens. They are at the stage where the buyers are appointing an 'expert' to make a decision. My parents will attend this visit with a fluent bi-lingual French/English friend. They themselves are pretty good French speakers but do miss things especially when its legal jargon. It's an agonisingly slow process, very frustrating. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for your comments - and the vice cache info in particular. Louise

[andyh4]

Just a word of warning Louise, if this does end up ging to court, what you describe as agonisingly slow will seem like manic racing.  It could easily take years to come to court and longer to resolve.

 

Good luck and best wishes for a good result from the expert.

[Benjamin]

HiLouise

In your first posting you say that the court is appointing an expert. In your post yesterday you have changed that to the buyers are appointing an expert.

Can you clarify please as this may change the situation completely and it may result in a flurry of warnings from forum members.

[idun]

Haven't your parents got legal assistance on their home insurance that might cover something like this?

[LaBouche]

Good luck to your parents - I wish we had known about vice cache when we bought our French property eight years ago, we were living in it only a week before a myriad of little horrors began revealing themselves. We had spent months getting all the details correct, we speak competent French too, asked every question imaginable of the seller and agent however you cannot enquire about things that are so well concealed can you?  The previous owner continued to live in our village after he sold it to us and actually would have made things very, very unpleasant for us had we known about post-sale buyers rights and gone after him for the money we lost repairing what he'd placed sticking plaster over; then again, we told everyone we met from then on that the property was a lemon. He was related to the Maire...