Buying privately and avoiding agency fees?

[OldBlue]

Hello all,

This is my first post on the forum. First of all, sorry about the slightly ambiguous thread title. I have a question about buying land/ruins privately from somebody who had previously advertised through an estate agency.

Here's the story. There were some old ruins advertised on an agent's website last November-ish. I made a very low offer through the agent via email. After a couple of weeks I chased up the agent for a response and was told that the seller had taken the property off the market. It was only on the market for a week! Fast forward to this month. I managed to obtain the contact details of the seller and wrote him a letter making an offer. He has written back to me asking for more money so we are into negotiations privately now.

My question is whether there is any risk of the agents coming after me for their commission if I go on to buy the property? I haven't signed anything with the agent and it was a relative of mine who originally contacted the agent on my behalf (because my French is very poor). Also, the amount of money that the seller has asked for is quoted with 'net vendeur' after it. Could this also make me liable for any agency commission?

Thanks

I have a feeling this could be my first post of many on this forum!

[AnOther]

Welcome to the forum.

You are wise to be cautious as these situations can be a minefield but I don't think anybody can possibly give you a positive yes or no answer to your question as every case will be different with many permutations to affect the outcome.

Unrelated events as they might be the facts that you saw the property on the agents website and made an offer through him, and that the property was taken off the market almost immediately afterwards would seem likely to at least raise some suspicions.

'Net vendeur' sounds to me like the seller may be covering himself as in the event of a private sale with a subsequent commission claim from the agent normally the seller would  be responsible for paying it but a 'net vendeur' agreement would probably transfer that liability to you. Of course whichever way you slice it ultimately it's always the buyer who pays the fees anyway as they are the only ones actually spending any money.

Alternatively the seller may be anticipating the sale going through the agent anyway and just wants to ensure that he actually receives the sum he is selling for.

A sticky conundrum so tread carefully.

Good luck

[NormanH]

If you didn't visit the property with the agent, and haven't signed a 'bon de visite' I think you are OK.

In addition you say it was taken off the market.  I would check all the same to see if the agent still has it on their site.

The seller has simply stated 'net vendeur' to be clear about the sum he will receive.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Frankly, it looks as though the owner/vendor is stringing you along - you say he is now asking you for MORE money than the original offer price. Have you asked him why?

Normally  a property can placed be with an agent by a vendor, using a 'simple mandate' which is non-exclusive and allows the vendor to seek and negotiate with a private buyer should he genuinely find one through his own efforts (ie. the vendor advertises privately or hangs a For Sale sign on his property). In this situatuion the owner/vendor would not be liable to the agent for commission, and a wise buyer would expect to pay LESS than the price proposed by the agent, as he is not contributing to the agent's commission.

However, even though the agent's mandate may have expired (most can be cancelled after three months) there is often a clause enabling the agent to demand commission should a buyer appear who was originally introduced by the agent, for a period up to two years. The French courts are very strict in these cases and invariably rule in the agent's favour. Never mind any comments about signing a 'bon de visite' or not, there is usually enough alternative evidence establishing whether a buyer was introduced by the agent or not.

If you are new to French property buying, it is perhaps wiser to go through an agent, who can also guide you through the process of making an offer, cooling-off, payment of deposit, technical surveys, vendor's responsibilities, optimal marriage regime, inheritance implications etc. - with the French notaire - through  to completion.

[NormanH]

Don't forget to point out the fact that you are effectively an agent P-D de R...[:)]

I have never been through an agent for the three purchases I have made.

They charge absurd sums which are of course passed on to the purchaser. Some approach 10%[:-))]

To give you an idea, a few years back when I bought my first place I saw it in an agent's window at 250,000 francs, asked around to see where it was, got the chap's telephone number from the board he had hanging outside and called

He said he wanted 150,000 francs and we agreed on 140,000.

After the final signature he said that he was pleased with what he had got and never expected anything like the agent's asking price, but they had pushed him up 'in case they found un anglais [:)]

It is almost always possible to find out all the details you need from the plan cadastral, from neighbours, the Mairie etc..

[mint]

We bought privately the first time and the second time through an agent.

In defence of agents, they can sometimes persuade the owner to accept a realistic price by, I suppose, showing what else is available in the area and what they can expect in present market conditions.

For our second, most recent, purchase, the house was on the market for over 40k more on the owner's private advert and they only budged very little when I rang them.

However, by the time they'd cooled their heels for a few months, I dealt with the agent and, in the end paid exactly what I expected to, despite paying agents' fees of 5%.

You really need to go with an open mind.  I grant you it's far from simple and you need to spend many, many hours, looking, researching, driving around and gen up on "how things are done" the French way.

Good Luck!

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Dear NormanH

I think it is fairly well known on this forum and others, and to readers of French Property News, that I am a property advisor working in a minuscule area of the south of France. I have no idea where the original poster is thinking of buying and have no particular interest in knowing, but I hope that my ten years in the French property business, including two years in an agency, are of some weight and usefulness when trying to reply to questions posed on this forum. If you have a problem with that, talk to the Moderators.

P-D de R.

[Debra]

However, as Oldblue is apparently a brand new member of the forum and first time poster and may not read other forums or French Property News he might not know that you are an agent and may therefore be biased towards advising people to use agents or dissuade them from trying to avoid paying their fees - so when I read NormanH's comment (having read your comments on this and other forums if not your contributions in French Property News and personally finding them biased towards advising people to use agents) I was gratified to see that someone had made the comment. 

[Debra]

Perhaps saying I personaly find your comments biased towards advising people to use agents etc is a bit strong so I should modify that to say that when I do read your advice to use an agent I can't help but think 'well he would say that, since he is an agent'. 

Anyway, I think NormanH in no way implied that your experience and advice is useless or has no weight but was perfectly correct in pointing out the fact that you are an agent because its a bit unfair to advise someone to use your own profession without clarifying the fact that you are of that profession. 

[NormanH]

I certainly wasn't implying any impropriety.

I consider P-D's comments of the highest value and am appreciative of the knowledge and advice he shares, at the same time thinking  as Debra says 'Well e would say that wouldn't he'.

There are things to be said on both sides of most issues, and in the case of agents I take one position and quite naturally P-D, takes another.

[Russethouse]

 It seems to me that it is very clear from PD's links, website etc on each and every post, that he is an agent by profession.

[Debra]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 It seems to me that it is very clear from PD's links, website etc on each and every post, that he is an agent by profession.

[/quote]There aren't any links on his post in this thread and I for one rarely follow the website links on people's posts so I wouldn't assume that a new user would.  If one of those UK solicitors who say they specialise in French property law advised people to use a UK solicitor for services provided by a notaire, you'd also expect them to state that they were advocating the use of their own profession.  It doesn't lessen the validity of their opinion but does give the recipient the full picture so they know exactly where it is coming from.

[PaulT]

Completely agree with Norman for pointing oiut that PD is effectively an agent and also with Debra.

I thought PDs retort was extremely strong and RH just because he has a link at the bottom of his postings does not mean that people will follow it to find out anything - it could be linked to dwarf throwing.

PDs first comments were valid but did offer an agents point of view whilst NHs offered the view of someone who gets by without using an agent it would have been correct for PD to point out his interest.

Paul

 

[Russethouse]

  The idea of allowing people a link is that when they post on a specific subject other members can see that is an area they know something about. PD's link is : www.francemedproperty.blogspot.com . Three guesses what its about ? Furthermore I know from experience that had he said he was an agent there was a good chance some 'sticky beak' would have reported him for advertising.

In this instance my feeling is that PD gave a valuable view. No disrespect to Normans view which is also valid of course, but he didn't add that he has lived in France X years and speaks excellent/fluent French which in this situation is surely also pertinent ?

This isn't really helping the OP so back on topic please.

[OldBlue]

Hello,

Thanks for all the replies, which I have been reading as they come in. To clarify, I meant that the seller is asking for more money than I offered. His new asking price (for a private sale) is half of the original FAI price. For now I am writing back to him with a set of questions which I should have asked before making my offer. One question asks if there would be any money to pay to the agency if I were to buy the property at this time. I’ve also asked if there is a septic tank under the property because my Dad said that I could have to replace it within a year if there is one. The main ruined building was formerly a house and looks like it was lived in within the last 4 decades but I couldn’t see any sign of a septic tank or soil pipe; Just the old incoming water main. The old house is no longer habitable legally though.

[Debra]

When you said you made an offer via email was that without viewing the property and whose email id did you use?  I'd think it's a bit of a cheek to expect commission when they refused to answer your email or submit your offer but if you'd viewed the property via them, whether you'd signed anything or not, you'd certainly be on dodgy ground. 

Re the whole question of whether to use an agent or not, generally, I have owned property in France for 7 years and have had 3 transactions go via an agent and 2 without.  I am currently selling two separate lots of land and a separate house and have no intention of doing so via an agent.  The reason for this is that when I bought via agents I paid huge fees to those agents and if anything, having to go via the agents instead of direct to the notaire slowed things down considerably.  I've also tried selling via an agent a couple of times and the service was awful.  I didn't see any benefit to using the agents at all when buying and they seem pretty useless when selling.  They don't appear to offer any advice or service which can't be obtained directly via a notaire except perhaps advertising, which can be done yourself if you're selling.  With low value property purchases like my land, the problem with having

paid agents fees is that I won't recoup that cost on selling since land

prices are pretty standard and don't go up like a house price might, no

matter how much work has been done on fencing and maintenance of the

land. 

As I don't have a link for people to follow, or guess what it means from reading it but not following it, I should perhaps clarify that I'm not and never have been a property agent, have lived full time in France for 4 years but unlike Norman, my French is not excellent - on the contrary, it's quite poor, but if I ask the notaire to speak slowly I can manage.  If I have problems, she simply calls in another notaire who speaks English.  If he wasn't there I'd get by using an online translator!  Even if I needed the services of a translator in person it would cost pennies in comparison to the agent's fees I've had to pay when purchasing property.  

So if you can avoid using them, Oldblue, then I would say do - but I wouldn't advise avoiding them on this purchase if you've already actually used them by seeing the property via them as it will be traceable somehow, even if only by diary entries.  Bear in mind something I didn't know when I first negotiated property purchases in France - that you can negotiate on the agent's fee as well as the net vendeur price.  That is particularly worth considering if you don't think they've done much to deserve you paying it!

[Russethouse]

 Can I suggest you 'hasten slowly' Have a read through old threads to do with renovation, doing up an old ruin, if that is what you intend, can easily turn from a dream to an expensive nightmare.. 

Of course if you already know all that then I apologise...[:)]

[Debra]

[quote user="Russethouse"] Can I suggest you 'hasten slowly' Have a read through old threads to do with renovation, doing up an old ruin, if that is what you intend, can easily turn from a dream to an expensive nightmare...[:)][/quote]I totally agree.  It's bad/expensive enough when you 'redecorate' a supposedly 'habitable' house!

When you see somewhere advertised that says 'needs renovation' and think 'it only needs redecorating' - make no mistake, the original description was correct, since when you 'redecorate' an old French house it often turns into 'renovation'! 

[andyh4]

If the target is to do up an old ruin the first thing to check is if you can, and secondly if you do whether you can live in it.

 

By definition an ruin is not  habitation and land without a habitation can easily lose or have reclassified its status in the PU.