Carte de Sejour

[idun]

I have just had to go through paperwork and found all sorts of things including a copy of my last carte de sejour.

It was issued in 2007 and was permanente. I had no problems getting it either.

I had been on this board, on and off for about 7 years by then.

I remember that all the hassle of getting carte de sejours started  three months after our arrival and things did change with regards to them over the years, including the name from Carte to Titre.

But my curiosity is peaked now, as to why so many on here don't seem to have  them or had them, and at what point did it become unnecessary.

I have tried to look it up, but I keep getting things about the current situation, whereas I wanted  to see when everything really changed and people no longer felt the need to get one. Or worse the Prefecture sent them packing[blink]

Ofcourse one could always have insisted as it really did not matter what the Prefectures said, they were never abolished by the french government.

[Cathar Tours]

When my parents came they did a lot of research, trouble is it turned out some of what they were led to believe was not correct.

They read either here on in a magazine that you needed a CDS to get a social security number which then got you into the French healthcare system. If you went to French because you had a job there this all happened automatically but if you had no job you had to apply yourself.

They went to the Prefecture to register for a card but were told that they couldn't have one because they were no issued to EU citizens. They later found out that the rules were you didn't need one but they didn't have the right to refuse you one if you asked. This was about the time the Eastern block countries joined the EU and things changed due to some two year rule regarding them or something.

They went to the healthcare people to ask for a health card and to explain why they didn't have a CDS. Turned out that not having one was a load of rubbish (I remember my dad was very angry at the time) and they had no problem getting their health card and it was that which gave him the social security number anyway.

When my dad got his CDS a couple of years back it was pretty simple really. Sent an email as recommended here, got his documents translated which cost him around 150 Euros. Got his appointment, had his finger prints taken then went back to get his card. The system worked absolutely fine for him at that time. Shortly afterwards he heard from others that they had stopped taking requests for CDS again which as far as he knew was not government sanctioned. I believe they also stopped changing driving licences as well round about the same time. I have no idea if that is correct.

It does seem reading through that it is just as confusing now as it was back then and that there is no standard, no central government, controlling this. Rules in some other countries (like Germany) are quite strict and involve ability to speak the language and a health check mandatory these days. Perhaps France could learn from other countries just as the UK could.

[NormanH]

I think it became unnecessary in 2002 for EU citizens  (but I haven't looked up the exact date) although as CT says they always had the right to ask for one. Some Préfectures may not have wanted  the bother but the rules  were there.

2002 is about the date that a lot of Brits started to come over with Ryanair flights making  it easier;TV programmes about 'Life in the Sun; and more and more baby-boomers getting to retirement age.

These later arrivals didn't have to go through all the palaver of  getting as CdS, which was very useful in introducing newcomers to the French systtem.

Much of the panic and confusion recently would have been avoided if they had remained compulsory

[alittlebitfrench]

Back in the 1990's you needed a CDS to work.

My first CDS was issued in Paris. The second Lyon.

I reapplied for a third in Orleans and they told me go away because you did not need one anymore.

It was an 'EU' thing that stopped them being necessary.

Now they are necessary after Brexit.

But FFS, just wait everyone. Wait until the French tell you what you need to do.

That was the advice given by everyone who has lived here a bit when the whole 'CDS' debate started after the Brexit vote. Just wait.

Ryanairs rushing around like headless chickens.

STOP !

You will only get kicked out of France if you can't afford to live here.

So gîte owners, beware. LOL.

[mint]

I hope the impression I get from some that goes along the lines of -  why didn't you get a CdS?  You didn't have to but you could have insisted - is wrong!  I wouldn't want to think that anyone could have so easily forgotten "what it was like" and how inadequate, rather than superior, they felt.

All very well to say you were legally entitled to one and that you could have got one if you tried hard enough!  Have you tried telling a fonc that you WANTED a CdS, that he'd GOT to give you one and that you didn't care what his boss said but that he'd better give you the forms to fill?

Right then, that was the situation.  We came in 2007, our French was rather less than basic and the "boss woman" who came all the way from Saintes to interview us for our SS number told us we had everything needed to live legally in France.  Indeed we got our CV in 6 weeks.  Incidentally, it also took that time to get my car immatriculated , during which time OH refused to let me drive the car!!

So why on earth would we attempt to argue with anybody that we wanted our CDS and we were jolly well going to demand one?  We opened bank accounts, got our tax declaration sorted, OH joined the table tennis club, we enrolled for French lessons, met our MT, did all manner of adminsitrative things comme il faut.

Perhaps some people like to look back with fondness that everything was a cinch and that they didn't have a moment's worry about settling into a new life and culture.  We found it all.. er... rather challenging (the buzz word these days) and rather proud at each and every step that we'd negotiated successfully.

CdS, not needed, breathed a sigh of relief at one fewer must-do thing and spent our time lost in wonder and in the general maze of things that MUST be done rather than things that had NO NEED to be done. 

[NickP]

Good to read the comments and advice so now for another question, we have a holiday home in France, but are going to apply for residence in France to save all the hassle of the 90/180 Schengen rules, that way we will be able to stay in France as long as we like and travel back and forth to the UK whenever. Now, as we can't apply till after July could we get an S1 now and join the French health system, or do we have to wait till we get a CdS We are retired and self-sufficient?

[Cathar Tours]

Mint - My mum and dad didn't get theirs because of what they were told at the Prefecture which was however wrong which we now know but they didn't back then. However there were quite a few I believe on this forum at the time who were saying something along the lines "they can't do that, your entitled, go and demand one" etc. and my parents were not the only ones. Possibly ,like you at the time, they didn't want to "rock the boat" so they never went back. I believe this would have been around 2003/4 and things have changed a lot since then.

[idun]

  I would say get your S1 NickP. Call Newcastle and ask them when they say you should get one as I am not sure of time frames with this. I say this as one of the things surely that would be important was having health care cover in order to get a card of some sort.

Well CT, I remember your father's posts well. And I know I repeatedly said that  there was an entitlement to have one. Taking my comments with other than a pinch of salt was his usual way, in spite of the fact that when I found this board had been in France about 20 years and was, if I say it myself, good at sorting things french out.

edit, just read what you have written CT. WELL the Prefecture had no right to do that. But, hey ho,rights are rights and what on earth has rocking a boat got to do with it??? absolutely nothing. A right is a right.

mint, yes, I did know how hard it was to do anything. It ALWAYS was, really, but that was part of moving to France, getting things done and insisting on one's rights. Imagine, we had no internet and we moved with next to no french  and had to get all these things sorted and were told all sorts of nonsense by officious fonctionnaires. My french improved at a great rate of knots gathering proper official information and that meant getting on the phone, being passed from pillar to post and hassling officials to get the right information..... and then insisting that the fontionnaires did their jobs, which they always did... in the end.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ Nicky P

You are typically someone who is going to fall in between the two systems. Not sure how that will work to be fair.

You can't have residency in two countries. Or to put it another way, you can't join the French health system unless you are a full time resident in France.

Eurotrash is the best one to answer that question.

[Cathar Tours]

I just remembered another reason why my parents wanted a CDS at the time. They were told on a forum, possibly this one, that by law you had to carry some form of ID in France when out of your house. They were also told, same place, that a driving licence is not considered ID therefore you had to carry your passport with you.

A passport is costly to get replaced if it is lost or stolen where as a CDS, which was free was not. It was therefore easier to carry a CDS which can be used as ID when you write cheques etc. apparently (you still have cheques in France!).

Ironically I think I read on this forum far more on one of the many CDS threads recently that a CDS is not legally accepted as an approved ID document and never has been so go figure. Only a French citizens ID card is classed as such.

[Cathar Tours]

Nick - I am sure that it does not matter what EU country your property is in if you apply for residency that's where you are resident and you are therefore by default not resident in the UK. Also if you have an S1 then your health care is covered by the UK in the EU country you are resident and therefore you lose your automatic right to free healthcare in the UK. I would say you need to do a bit of research on the British side like on the Brexit website. You might end up fixing one issue but creating a whole new one for yourself.

Just so you know France and Germany are inside Schengen and the UK and the ROI are not so they both have borders and have even since Schengen was created. It's a Brexit myth that people can appear to waltz into the UK from the EU when in reality it is more to do with the UK governments border force not doing their job properly.

[alittlebitfrench]

You been reading too many forums CT. LOL

I don't carry an ID around in France. Nor do my kids LOL.

Good job really because I am a danger to French society in car....apparently.

A CDS can be used as a proof of identity.

Just carry an EDF bill around. That works fine LOL.

[Cathar Tours]

Idun - Seems my dad was right and you were wrong then because he did exactly the same as Mint or are you saying Mint was also wrong? Read her post carefully before replying.

I don't know if it was you or somebody else but even so you should not speak of somebody who cannot answer back because they are dead. VERY disrespectful especially of somebody of your apparent age. You should know better.

[NickP]

ALBF I won't have residency in two countries or even attempt to, why would I? I would be resident in France and as I am a British citizen I will have unlimited access to the UK. Please read what people write, not what you think they are writing. Still, as you are busy washing nappies I let you off. LOL

[alittlebitfrench]

?

That's weird.

[Judith-aka-Judith]

Mint,

So very true.  OH came 2005, I came in 2008, and having done my research on the whole, knew that a CdS "could" be requested, but was indeed no longer mandatory.  So, like you, we did not bother.  As you say, so very many more things which had to be done not only took precedence, and grateful, even if we did not think it, that it didn't need to be done, in fact, did not even enter upon the list of things to be done.

Just kept up to date with changes required, and acted when necessary. 

CdS obtained in August 2018, in the holiday lull, and before absolute panic set in.  I have still not signed up to change it, and will not rush, even when the replacement system comes live in July.  Let it get its gremlins out of the way first, as for us it should be a simple change.

So far, I have used it just once for ID when I did not have my passport with me.

[Judith-aka-Judith]

Cathar Tours, if you are on an S1 with the UK being your "paying" country for healthcare, this also entitles you to free healthcare in the UK as a UK pensioner ... and this has been confirmed that it will continue, as will the EHIC. I understand that come the real Brexit you should carry a copy of your S1 [or in our case E121 as our arrival here pre-dates the arrival of the S1] in the UK though whether the powers that be in the NHS will know this remains to be seen. I have the quoted ref somewhere, if I could be bothered to go and find it.

Last year I had to get a repeat prescription made up, because I'd had to stay longer than anticipated, and all it took was a visit to see a GP so that they could write a prescription for it, as a copy of my French prescription which I had with me would not work.  In fact, when I signed on as that was the only way, they found my old NHS record .. and knowing the above, I just said I was on holiday [GP didn't blink an eyelid on seeing my French prescription, and she knew I was not resident] .  Given my age I even got the prescription free, first time ever as I'd left the UK just before my 60th birthday, the only problem with it was the fact that the post code had changed and hadn't been update on one system, but it had on another!  Once sorted I got my tablets OK.

[idun]

Cathar Tours, understand this. French fonctionnaires often talk out

of their backsides. They will not check up, they just repeat parrot

fashion what someone has told them and swear blind that what they say is

right. It is how french schools work and that is how they things too.

I replaced my carte de sejour in 2007! I did not have any problems.

And

now, you are saying that they must have been wrong to issue ours! Well,

mon grand, what you are saying is  WRONG,  that is exactly what YOU are

doing.... the very implication  that they shouldn't have  issued ours 

because they are no longer required means that I would have been told

the same  and that is  absurd.

No one on here is lying apart from the people they saw. AND the cards were NEVER done away with, if you did not understand the word 'abolished'.

Now get your head around this from the french government web site :

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036

And would you believe it, well obviously you may chose not too, but the carte de sejour is actually mentioned as a FORM OF OFFICIAL ID IN FRANCE..... amazing isn't it.

This is for a foreigner in France, rough translation below

La personne contrôlée doit justifier de son identité et prouver qu'il est en séjour légal en France.

Elle peut présenter un titre d'identité (titre de séjour, carte d'identité, passeport).

Elle peut aussi présenter une autre pièce voire un témoignage.

Si

la personne contrôlée ne peut pas présenter de documents ou s'ils

paraissent insuffisants pour établir l'identité (document sans photo),

une vérification d'identité peut être demandée.

L'officier de police judiciaire peut retenir, sur place ou dans ses locaux, une personne dont il cherche à établir l'identité.

La vérification ne doit pas excéder 4 heures (8 heures à Mayotte) depuis le début du contrôle.

Pendant

cette période, la personne contrôlée peut présenter de nouveaux

papiers, faire appel à des témoignages, faire prévenir le procureur de

la République ou toute personne de son choix.

S'il s'agit d'un

mineur, son représentant légal doit être averti préalablement, et

l'assister lors de la vérification (sauf impossibilité). Le procureur de

la République doit également être informé.

Lorsque la

vérification révèle que la personne peut être liée à des activités à

caractère terroriste, elle peut être retenue sur place ou dans le local

de police où elle est conduite pour une vérification de sa situation par

un officier de police judiciaire permettant de consulter les

traitements automatisés de données à caractère personnel.

La personne retenue doit être immédiatement informée :

• du fondement légal de son placement en retenue et la durée maximale de la mesure (4 heures),
• du fait que sa retenue ne peut pas donner lieu à audition et qu'elle a le droit de garder le silence,
• du fait qu'elle peut faire prévenir par l'officier de police judiciaire toute personne de son choix, ainsi que son employeur.

S'il

n'y a pas d'autre moyen d'établir l'identité, le procureur (ou le juge

d'instruction) peut autoriser la prise d'empreintes digitales et de

photos seulement.

La vérification d'identité donne lieu à un procès-verbal.

If an official stops you, and you have not got ID on you, you have FOUR HOURS to furnish it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will add it would depend on how dogmatic the official is and believe me, some are.

Hence the practicality of actually having ID on me at all times, for me at least, far outweighed having to mess around getting hold of it later. Also the gendarmes in our area often had controls and I was stopped several times in the car.

Do not call me a liar, I do not know everything about France, never have, never will, (incidentally french people don't either)  but I know an awful lot even now, and I know how to find out if I don't.

[idun]

Judith,  we used GP's and A&E on our holidays to the UK, when we lived in France. That is fine, never a problem.

However,

S1 pensioners are not automatically treat as UK residents are, there is

no automatic right to health care when one is a UK pensioner living in

another country. 

For

example, one could not 'plan' say a knee replacement etc, in the UK, a

sort of health holiday to save money. The S1 would mean that the person

concerned would be in the french system and not the UK's. Emergencies,

yes, that is fine, but not planned health care.

I believe that there is talk of the french having to issue CEAM's again to S1 residents, so that would need to be taken to the UK with you for health care.

Thought I would mention it and if anyone wants to check on that call Newcastle's NHS S1 help line:

0191 218 1999 (option 5) if you are calling from the UK.

And 0044 191 218 1999 (option 5) if you are calling from outside of the UK

And that would be the number that you should call Nick P about an S1 if you are moving to France permanently.

[idun]

And having said that, when we first moved back to the UK, we had to have a french S1 to have UK health care.

In spite of the general notion that people have, that the NHS is free to all residents, IT IS NOT.

We HAD TO HAVE  french S1 and what a battle that was getting it, in spite of still paying cotisations in France, took about a year if memory serves, AND we had Newcastle calling us every week and then me calling France, until in the end, we got it.

When the UK pension kicked in, then it was OK we didn't need it any more.

[Cathar Tours]

Now Indun understand this we are not talking now we are talking about 2003/4 and my mum and dad were told the same as Mint, they couldn't have a CDS. YOU then said (as you seem to think it was you but then I don't know if it was or not, perhaps you can find the thread and give a link?) that they have the right to go and demand one.

My mum and dad at that time clearly felt the same as Mint. Did they want to go to the Prefecture, bang their fist on the table, tell them they were wrong and demand a CDS. Not worth the trouble like Mint said and if anyone asked, which they didn't, they would have said the Prefecture refused to issue them with one.

By your on admittance things were a lot different 17 years ago. I called you a liar because you said my mum and dad were fools for not following your advice and quite clearly they were not because they didn't and nothing happened. Then by implication your calling another member a fool also because they should have gone and demanded a CDS years ago because they were "entitled".

[idun]

Pray tell me where on earth I used the word 'fool'.

I think that standing up for one's rights in France is important, as my goodness, it can be hard to do. And this was a right, if one qualified to get one ofcourse, and I imagine that I would have always mentioned that little fact too.

And you don't bang fists on tables when dealing with  fonctionnaires, I never said that I did that, there are many ways to get things done and complete confrontation, who would do that? Not me!

[Judith-aka-Judith]

Idun, yes, I maybe didn't make myself clear.  An S1 pensioner would be treated freely in hospital  / GP etc, if it were needed as an emergency, such as my lack of tablets, or an accident.  I agree, it does not mean that you could schedule a routine operation to be done by the NHS, and I am really not sure why anyone living in France would do that ... as you are likely to be seen and treated much more quickly here [cf, just back from a 2 night stay in hospital for a an op on my leg ... scheduled during my appointment with the surgeon 2 weeks ago, it is highly unlikely that NHS treatment would be so quickly scheduled!].

[pomme]

Pensioners holding and S1 have the same rights to NHS services as anyone who is

ordinarily resident in England (I assume there are similar regulations for the other UK countries).

The relevant information is in the DHSS document:

Guidance on implementing the overseas visitor charging regulations

6.3 The following exemption categories may apply to those who are not ordinarily

resident in the UK:

• Regulation 13 – UK pensioners resident in the EEA: UK pensioners who are

resident in another EEA member state are exempt from charge for all relevant

services, including elective treatment, provided that they have registered an S1

document in that member state. See Chapter 9 for more about this exemption

para 9.58 (page 81) of the DHSS document Guidance on implementing the overseas visitor

charging regulations

UK pensioners living in another EEA country

In April 2015, there was a change in law which meant that all UK state

pensioners who are living in the EEA or Switzerland and have registered an S1 form

from the UK with the local authorities in their EEA country of residence are entitled to

not be charged for relevant services, just like someone who is ordinarily resident in

England. This rule also applies to any of their family members who also possess a

UK-issued S1. However, they will need to pay any charges which also apply to UK

residents, such as prescription and dental charges. Individuals who have registered

a UK S1 in another EEA country should be asked to provide some evidence

confirming this. If they present a UK-issued EHIC, their EHIC information should not

be entered into the portal for reimbursement. Regulation 13 of the Charging

Regulations concerns this category of patient

This is a short link t.ly/y5NMb and this is the original link to the document

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/767905/guidance-on-implementing-the-overseas-visitor-charging-regulations.pdf

[idun]

Interesting as this is not what Newcastle NHS business people are saying this week. I have written to the authority for up to date confirmation.

The reason I wrote, is that a government department I have had dealings with in the last year have not kept their web page up to date at all. Ended up being costly for us. So unforgettable.

And things may currently be as stated and I have been misinformed, but I think that this is something that needs keeping an eye on in case there are changes anyway.

IF it seems to still be the rules, it feels a bit off if that is the case. As Judith said, who would want to go back to the UK from France, ***but the EU isn't just France, it is as I have forever heard, a multitude of countries many whom are simply takers.

So say someone moves to Romania, for what ever reason and hands in their S1. The UK pays the romanians for this persons health care, and then that person goes back to the UK for treatment they don't consider up to scratch in Romania. Depending on how Romania was paid, it could mean that the UK goverment was 'funding' twice and that does not feel as if it would be right. 

And saying anything about pensioners rights, well, UK S1 holders in France don't pay into the system, but french pensioners do, so it isn't quite being treat as the locals are is it. A rather unequal arrangement, and it isn't as if french pensioners have not paid into the system for a lifetime already. And no one is made to move anywhere, it is a choice.

***Twice I have had to have treatment in the UK, once,  simply as it was not available in France and needed what is now I believe an S2 to hand in.