when do your guests pay

[lizzy h]

is it on arrival or at the end,

the reason I am asking is that i don't take deposits as its too much hassle for maybe one or two nights and even a week.

but this summer we have had a few guests that in two instances I have asked to leave early through unreasonable behaviour and had a couple of others who have had to leave through family illness  (or so they say) and a incident yesterday hit home that I should get their money on arrival

what happened; a family of five booked for the week approx 6 weeks ago in the family room, they had three children aged 5 and 4 and 11 mths so all the kids were free, the lady stated she needed a cot so I went and bought one for 100 Euros. They arrived and the kids were running around mad pulling at the curtains etc I took them to their room the kids immediatley trashed the room pulling the quilts of chucking the towels around, they then opened the door to another guests room, the lady was asleep in bed and was very unhappy and told them to get out. I saw this with my own eyes and the mother said nothing, the 5 year old then started spitting on the chairs and then shouted  "UURG YOU HAVE SPIT ALL OVER THE CHAIR!!!!" to me so I said back, in a not very happy voice "no I have not I have just seen you do this and please do not this is my home and have a little respect!" to this the mother gave me a dirty look and said "come on we will go and get something to eat," so off they went on foot as the car was parked round the back,

then low and behold a hr later the car was gone and and so were the people and all that remained was rubbish and a dirty nappy on the clean unused beds,

So what I'm saying, I have turned away bookings for these people, spent money on a cot, was having the kids for free and for what! to have them nick off when our backs were turned, should I get the money off guests as they arrive to avoid people nicking off  and then if they have paid I won't be any worse off, as I will never fill that room now unless heres a passer by, all help will be appreciated,

Some people just don't have any respect for peoples homes and livelihood, or on the otherhand should we expect to get ignorant people like this and just shrug our shoulders and get on with it!

cheers

 

[Lori]

Hi Liz:  I think you are probably better off without them.. But, they should have paid you for at least one night to try to cover your loss, instead of running off.

If I read your website correcly, you say that all rooms must be paid for upon arrival.  That is exactly what I would do.  If the guest prefers to pay for each night each day, that would be up to you.  If your bookings come via your website, guests should already know about payment upon arrival.  If you send out booking confirmations, this point should be included on the confirmation form.  Any guests who show up (without reservations) and are lucky to find a vacancy should be told that payment is required upon check-in.  Not that uncommon at all.

Your choice, but if questioned about the payment on arrival, I would tell the truth, that the unfortunate actions of a few causes the policy for us all.

Just my ideas..

[mascamps.com]

We used to be totally laid back about deposits and payment. Sadly, a series of incidents has pushed us in the direction of being a whole lot more strict about the cash; we had a similar (but thankfully not so awful) experience which started us off down this road.

What we do now is to take credit card details to guarantee the room where-ever possible. For us, this is more than 90% of the cases I think. We operate "hotel style" for this ie no deposit, but if the guest doesn't turn up, we bill them for the first night (unless, of course, they've cancelled). You need a very clear cancellation policy to be able to do this or the CC company will, rightly, come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Without a guarantee, we look for money upfront for the whole stay. This also applies if someone has "guaranteed" the booking with a Switch/Maestro card (the card either has no "big number" or it starts with a "6") as these can't be used for "customer not present" / "vente a distance" transactions. We are ruthless about this: it doesn't matter if it's a really nice looking retired couple or a bunch of yobs - no money, no key is our rule. The business of charging a night at a time isn't a runner; if someone only has that amount of cash, you're going to have problems getting your money.

I'm sure that this sounds totally ruthless and I suppose that it is. On the other hand, we want to be confident that we'll get paid for our work. Sadly these days there are a growing number of people who will skip on you or otherwise mess around when it comes to paying you.

So, in your case, you had someone checkin but leave without paying. OK, they left pretty promptly by the sound of it. If they'd done that here, we'd have been able to bill them for the first night (ex-meals) since they didn't cancel in line with our cancellation policy.

Where we are more reasonable is that, if we have a deposit we will refund our 10€ a day deposit for those days for which we are able to relet the room. This is from our paypal deposit scheme (we're moving away from that though). For instance, one couple arrived last week and had paid 70€ deposit to reserve the room. When they arrived they realised that we aren't near the coast (despite us saying in the very first paragraph that we're 40 mins from the beach!) and didn't want to stay. We were able to rebook the room for 4 nights so we owe them 40€ (less administration expenses, though that's to cover us for unforeseen expenses like currency conversion etc.).

 

Arnold

 

[Quillan]

[quote]is it on arrival or at the end, the reason I am asking is that i don't take deposits as its too much hassle for maybe one or two nights and even a week. but this summer we have had a few guests that...[/quote]

Sorry to hear about your problem and hope you have recovered.

We started taking deposits this year. Previously we operated much in the same way as you till we had two guests not turn up, both of which had booked meals on arrival.

We now take a deposit of half the value of the stay plus the full costs of any meals booked. We only accept (for deposits only) English Bank cheques (we only cash them if they don't turn up), Euro travellers cheques, French Bank cheques and we use PayPal adding the 3.9% handling fee. This is simple, costs us nothing and works. We don't have a credit card machine, too expensive and complicated to use for us.

There have been a lot of 'runners' this year so it's not you personally.

Hope this helps.

[le val charente]

This reminds me of a funny experience I had 2 weeks ago, when a respectable looking French couple (no luggage) in their 50s arrived at 2pm and asked to see a room.  They said they liked it and as I went downstairs, they closed the door and locked it. 

We are always very trusting and give keys out even before payment!  Bit of a "siesta", I thought, that's nice for them!

Two hours later, they came downstairs and headed for the door... without even saying please I asked them straight away if they would pay for their room.  Immediately they wrote a cheque and off they went! 

One of my regulars in the bar asked why I had acted like that, so I explained, no suitcases etc, and I said, "They won't be back and if someone else asks for an ensuite room for tonight, I'll run up there and get it ready!!"

Well I was sitting here at 10pm telling my husband about them, when they came back with all their bags!!  It was lucky no-one else had asked for our last ensuite room that night!!!

But seriously, we have had a couple of no-shows last weekend after I had given someone else another CDH number to call; they said no vacancies, but their clients also didn't turn up!!  From now on, I just take a card number for security, unless there is enough time for them to post off a cheque to us.

 

[Lori]

For those of you who accept checks as deposits/payments and then find the guests don't show up, don't you find that they have canceled the check too??

 

 

[mascamps.com]

We've only ever received French cheques for payments/deposits (in principle we accept UK cheques too but haven't yet been offered any) and have never had a problem; I've never heard of a problem with them either.

On 'thother hand, a friend of ours who used to just hold the UK deposit cheques 'til the people were checking out found that the one time he needed to cash the cheque, it bounced. He does gites so it was his security deposit and was therefore out several hundred euro for a new cooker. He now cashes all cheques and that seems the only sensible thing to do. The problem is, of course, that the people most likely to mess around with bouncing cheques are also more likely to mess around in other ways too.

Val, although I've never yet had a problem with the French I suspect that it's better to always go for a credit card number regardless of postal timetables. That way, if you do have a problem, you can then bill them whereas you can only be sure of having the amount of the cheque.

 

Arnold

 

[Jc]

Always record their registration number and let them see you doing it;also ask to see their passports/identity cards and record the details.

[mascamps.com]

Always record their registration number and let them see you doing it;also ask to see their passports/identity cards and record the details.

Ah, but what if it's a rented car? You won't know as these days there aren't any stickers on the cars (aside from easycar). Also, even if it is their car and you have their passport details, what do you propose doing with them if they skip? I know that, in theory, you might be able to track them down via the police but why go through all that hassle when you could either charge them upfront or take their credit card details?

Out of curiosity, has anyone who does record car registration and/or passport/identity card details had reason to use those details and been able to recover any money due?

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

".....Ah, but what if it's a rented car? You won't know as these days there aren't any stickers on the cars (aside from easycar)"

I don't know Arnold, it's always a what if from you is it not ! Rental cars and the hirers names are still easily sought but please, don't let's go there, it will only lead to another what if and we are all pretty busy I would imagine !!

Yes, we have been known to write down car registrations and have asked for ID details and never needed to follow any of them up.

Only had one runner in many years. It was when we were in the Doo Don and a family of four who were passing, took a family room for the night, they joined in with a large BBQ we were holding, had a good night, bid their goodnights around the same time as most of the others, then sloped off at 05.30 (English guests next door to them, heard them creeping out)leaving half the cost of the room and nothing for the meals for four.

We had their name, car reg. and approx area of address in Brittany and good old Minitel pulled up their details straight away. The next day we called them and told them if they did not pay, we would put it in legal hands (really all idol threats as the cost in time and aggro is just too much). We never heard anything back, not surprsing really but on a little trip to Brittany that Autumn and his address being less than 20 minutes from our destination, he got a shock when he opened his door to see us standing there(once he realised who we were), their cheque never bounced either !!

Right payments and when someone looks dodgy.

Dodgy looking characters first, NO it is not apparent ! I have been wrong a few times over many years on the occasions when I have thought "watch 'em they look iffy!. We really have found that it is a case of "never take anyone on first impressions" especially the French.

Over the years, we have had rough types that have worried me from the first minute, who have eaten well, drunk a little wine and aperos followed by coffees and digestifs and have never asked for money in advance for their room or food (this is passing trade by the way). We have noticed though, that many of that genre will often offer ID, as if that is what they have got accustomed to doing, due to predjudices against their "type". In the morning they have thanked us for our acceuil and our ambiance the evening before, paid up and as ever "à la prochaine" is mentioned and off they go.

I do feel it is time to get out of the game if it ever comes down to doing business by consistently asking for payments on arrival, due to fear of non payment. It gives the distict impression of mistrust against the client and that to my mind, is no way to conduct any long term business to be honest.

Safeguards, well yes, that is entirely different and is seen as good business. One night stays, by way of reservations by email, fax or phone, pay the total price in advance. We do not charge in advance for meals though (Chris be careful, not sure how GdF guests will feel about that, you may be alone in charging in advance, or perhaps in your region it might be different but not in the regions we know well about).

All British guests must pay like the French, one night..total in full, choices are Nochex (for UK clients) much better in my view, to Pay Pal, credit card details, for those able to deal by credit card, UK sterling cheque or interbank transfer or of course for the French, a French euro cheque. Two nights 50% of total, three nights and longer min one night payement or 25% of total bill.

With passers by, OK, many will expect to pay on arrival but if you are like us and have no preferance or it is not offered (not that we have not taken it in advance when a client has asked if we would like to do so)then simply say due to controles by the gendarmes in your region you require them to offer you their ID and car registration (hire bleeding car or not Arnie !). That is almost 100% guaranteed to stop any thoughts they may have had of doing the old smokey tennis shoe! If they had any in the first place that is !!

Don't forget also, banks are not allowed to hire credit card machines or indeed take credit card payments from any persons that do not offer them their siret/siren details. So for most B&B's who are not registered, it is not an option anyway.

The knockers are far and few between, but by cutting down on their chances of doing so, as detailed above, one should not have many (if any) problems with the old fly by nights !!

[mascamps.com]

Whilst it's certainly true that rental car details in effect identify people, I'm not sure that it would be quite so simple to extract the address information from them as they're bound by data protection etc. laws so may not be able to hand it over without a court order. If it's their own car, you might find a friendly gendarme who could directly access the information; even if they didn't hand it over to you I suspect (from recent experience) that they'd be more than willing to have someone call round to your problem guest.

never take anyone on first impressions" especially the French.

Funnily enough with one of our very first guests (French) Wendy said "keep an eye on those two" yet they became our very first regular guests. Yes, they're a bit "odd", but then so are we I suppose!

I do feel it is time to get out of the game if it ever comes down to doing business by consistently asking for payments on arrival, due to fear of non payment. It gives the distict impression of mistrust against the client and that to my mind, is no way to conduct any long term business to be honest.

Safeguards, well yes, that is entirely different and is seen as good business. One night stays, by way of reservations by email, fax or phone, pay the total price in advance. We do not charge in advance for meals though (Chris be careful, not sure how GdF guests will feel about that, you may be alone in charging in advance, or perhaps in your region it might be different but not in the regions we know well about).

I know what you're saying about it seeming like we're not trusting the guests to ask for money upfront but when you get right down to it, they are total strangers who you know next to nothing about. OK, for someone staying a few nights you will usually get to know them a little and perhaps build up a basis for trust but for the overnighters it's only good sense to charge upfront or at least to have credit card details.

Don't forget also, banks are not allowed to hire credit card machines or indeed take credit card payments from any persons that do not offer them their siret/siren details. So for most B&B's who are not registered, it is not an option anyway.

For sure, however I'd say that writing down someones credit card details (name, number and expiry date) is quite likely to give the impression that those details are useable by yourself and in itself be more likely to reduce the possibility of skipping.

 

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

"........For sure, however I'd say that writing down someones credit card details (name, number and expiry date) is quite likely to give the impression that those details are useable by yourself and in itself be more likely to reduce the possibility of skipping."

Now forgive me but surely asking for private card details without the ability to actually carry out a transaction, smells somewhat "iffy to me", what are the legalities on that score?

What happens when the guests arrive and then expect to pay by credit card but you then tell them you cannot accept them ?

"..... OK, for someone staying a few nights you will usually get to know them a little and perhaps build up a basis for trust but for the overnighters it's only good sense to charge upfront or at least to have credit card details

But surely, the 3 nighters could still do the old smokey at any time ? Any one nighters who order in advance, pay in total, those one nighters arriving on the doorstep, well it is your choice and as I said, we have taken guests money when they have asked if they should pay immediately but in general and by far our most popular choice, is to simply take their ID and car reg and call it due to possible controles. Many guests arrive as strangers, they can just as easily leave as friends after 12 hours, let alone 72 hours !!

[mascamps.com]

Now forgive me but surely asking for private card details without the ability to actually carry out a transaction, smells somewhat "iffy to me", what are the legalities on that score?

I guess you'd need to watch how you put it across. In principle you could use a third party to process the transactions if/when required so I think that legally it would be fine.

What happens when the guests arrive and then expect to pay by credit card but you then tell them you cannot accept them ?

I was assuming that you'd be writing down the card details when they arrived rather than before though but that can happen anytime. We accept more types of cards online than we can accept when the card is physically here for instance (something that I'm sure we'll come unstuck with sooner or later). Interestingly, we get a fair number of people using an Amex card as a guarantee but all but one have actually paid in cash.

I don't doubt that 3 nighters or even two week guests can (and presumably do) do runners but the longer people stay, the more chance that you'll have of picking up on this. On 'tother hand it does, of course, increase the potential lost revenue.

I agree that it does seem a bit off to be asking for guests to pay on arrival and indeed if they later take meals and so on it's a nuisance administratively as well. In most cases these days, it's an academic point for me as I automatically get their card details with the reservation which, perhaps, may be colouring my view of having card details upfront all the time. We did lose money in several instances last year (pre getting the cc details automatically) which is why we tightened up on taking deposits and so on and had we been running on the same basis as last year we'd have lost over 500€ this year so far, mainly through no-shows who, of course, you've no chance to develop any trust with.

 

Arnold

 

[Russethouse]

>>I guess you'd need to watch how you put it across. In principle you could use a third party to process the transactions if/when required so I think that legally it would be fine.<<<

Well I can process CCs (a left over from my antique dealing days) and I can tell you that the credit card companies send warnings around about doing this - NEVER process a card for anyone else !

It is not 'fine' at all

[mascamps.com]

It's still fine. As far as I know, you can sign up for online processing in the US which will let you type in a cc number and process it as though you had a machine. I've not looked into this as I have a machine.

Effectively the same as using paypal but with you typing in the cc details rather than the guest. I think (not sure) that you could even use paypal to do the charge if you had the guests address along with their cc details; probably a bit outside the scope of paypal's terms & conditions though but prior to us having vente a distance enabled one guest suggested that we do exactly that with their card details.

To run a transaction through for someone else, you'd probably need to draw up a short contract to the effect that you were their agent or something to cover yourself. Say A had the problem and B the machine. B could act as A's reservation agent and collect the money, passing it on to A. In effect we have this kind of arrangement with most of our reservation systems: they bill the guest for the deposit and authorise us to use the same cc details to bill them for the balance. In one case we bill the reservation service for no-shows and they charge this to the guest. I wouldn't recommend anyone doing this on a regular basis for another B&B though.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Bluddy hell Arnold,

You really do make things far too complicated, gawd knows how you sleep at night, your mind must be in turmoil ! You think about something, get questioned, move the goalposts, get questioned, move the goalposts,and so on, if you were the Chelsea groundsman, they would now be playing in Plymouth

We have had one no show in respect of losing money in gawd knows how many years,(any other no shows, have been more than covered by their deposit or total payment) you on the other hand, in just a couple or less, have had loads, what's going on??

Look at what I posted, that covers most, if not all bases, except for your fear of Swift/Iban which we have used since Noah came on holiday, with no problems ! (please don't go on again about it though !)

You cannot take someones credit card details as they come in through the door, then in the morning ask him for "readies", he is going to wonder what you were doing asking for his credit card details, that cannot be strictly kosher surely !! I know what I might say if I were a guest!

Still waiting here for some guests who said they would not be late back, it is 00h10 and they did not take their keys out, bet they're late for brekkers and guess who will take it all back in at 09h45 if they ain't up...well it's give and take innit !!

[Russethouse]

You presumably have a proper contract with your reservation companies though - what I am saying is do not do this under the 'old pals act' type of agreement.

Are these arrangements to type in a CC detail in the USA, dependant on US bank account ? (yep - I have one of those too )

[Quillan]

Blimey Miki you've had Noah stay, did he park his boat at your place? To think I had you down as a youngish sort of chap, never came in to my mind you were that old .

PS Got any spare giraffe's my trees need pruning .

[mascamps.com]

Miki, I don't know why but in general our no-shows are almost exclusively those that have booked just a couple of days ahead. The percentage of no-shows is around 1% to 2% which is pretty low but the percentage of no-shows of those that have booked just two days or so ahead is more like 10%. I suspect our numbers are a good deal higher than yours as a consequence of the different mix of listings that we have. We've not had any no-shows from listings in the B&B/inn/guest house category as far as I can remember.

Chris, I suspect that a US bank account would be required in most cases but I'm not certain about that as we didn't get around to doing a whole lot of looking into the possibilities before getting our cc machine. I've a feeling (not sure) that one place paid by way of a refund into your own credit card which implies that a US bank account wouldn't be required. There was a wide variation in charges for doing this but some seemed to be as cheap (probably cheaper knowing French banks) as having a machine.

You're certainly right about doing the cc charges on the "old boys network" but I think it would be a runner to do that subject to having some agreement drawn up. We're not talking major agreement here either as I was thinking about it last night and realised that we actually do this already for someone.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

[quote]Blimey Miki you've had Noah stay, did he park his boat at your place? To think I had you down as a youngish sort of chap, never came in to my mind you were that old . PS Got any spare giraffe's my ...[/quote]

No he left his racket in the corner though.........Yannick..... Chris

[Cerise]

Dear Quillan

I have no giraffes but there are currently some llamas in the village square would they be of any use??  When I went to boulangerie this morning thought I had had too much Gaillac at the fete last night, but llamas still there, so must be them not me.

dear everyone else

Don't you lot live complicated lives.  I am sure that one of these days a guest will do a runner, or nick something, but apart from being a little (well actually sometimes a lot) weird, ours seem to come, eat, drink, sleep, pay - in cash or by cheque - and then go on their merry way leaving us tired and bemused but generally happy enough.  The thought that one of them might not pay one of these days doesn't keep me awake at night.  Should I try to make my life more complicated or shall I carry on washing, ironing, cooking, cleaning, entertaining, leading guided tours round fetes and meeting llamas.  What do you think?

Maggi

[Russethouse]

Cerise I am sure Miki and Chris lead similarly simple lives, once a system is in place it is easy.

Arnold, I get statements from my CC supplier and with them a little letter or sometimes a mini mag, there are so often warnings about processing someone else's details I have lost count - wouldn't the customer query the charge if he has stayed at X and sees a charge from Y ?

Life is complicated enough.........

[Jc]

Similar when you receive a statement and don't recognize one of the entries,phone the card company and find it is the parent company of the shop you went into but with a totally different name.

[Russethouse]

But the CC company probably know about that - its a 'Trading As' arrangement.

Say Arnold runs through a CC payment for a friend, but the friends service wasn't up to much or the guests get food poisoning and think they have a case against the holiday provider - they seek recompense on their CC and guess who is in the frame ? Not Arnold's friend - Arnold!

[Quillan]

[quote]Dear Quillan I have no giraffes but there are currently some llamas in the village square would they be of any use?? When I went to boulangerie this morning thought I had had too much Gaillac at the...[/quote]

We had them at our Fete as well, not enough reach for the high stuff.

We do 'keep it simple' and it's so easy even I know what I am doing, and I'm a man!

Nicking stuff, well we have a very expensive low voltage light fitting in one of our bathrooms. It comprises of a rail going left and right of the fixing and it waves up and down a bit. You fit the lights by a set of plates, a bolt and a couple of screws which pick up on the electricary. Sounds complicated, well it is to install but it looks nice, or so the wife tells me, she picked it. I was cleaning the bathroom and thought 'it looks a bit darker than usual over here', yep you got it somebody had nicked one of the lights. Now the thing is they are absolutly no good if you don't have the rest of the stuff, which must be identical. It's not the obvious stuff people nick it's the stuff you don't notice for a few days that goes. Anyway we are wondering off a bit here.

I have to say if you look through these threads this subject appears in one form or another more than once with the same sort of debate and answers, it's like a Duracell battery, it goes on and on and on and on.............

The thing is at the end of the day we all have different ways of doing things. It's nice to hear how others deal with things, But, at the end of the day it's waht you feel happy with and what works for you that counts. No two B&B's or their owners are the same which probably makes it a nice business to work in, and for customers it's probably what they want. Those that don't can always stay in a Formular 1 place.