SIRET Numbers

[Russethouse]

>>I do hope that you would enquire as to why an unregistered competitor isn't putting up the cash to go registered before reporting them - they just may be facing a situation beyond your immediate comprehension. You might be peeing on a genuine person's dreams. Or you might find out that you are reporting a no good lazy pee taker! At least you'll know. <<

No - I'm making my own point - do you think the French person about to report a 'noir' worker knows or cares about anothers dreams etc ?

Perhaps the ability to dob someone in could be seen as true intergration ???

[Quillan]

[quote]Crikey - what a terrible story! Was that just a guy having some tiles replaced on his private home, i.e. nothing to do with, say, a B+B? If so, is it up to the private customer to have proof of the a...[/quote]

This was just an example but the one in Montpelier (and there is another today in the paper but I have not read it yet) the guy broke his leg and was off work for 6 months but the 'employer' had to pay. In this case it was a private individual.

Nobody is interested in MP's perks and wages here in France, do they do their job is the most important thing.

Good point about dodgy documents but I think the French are better at spotting one than the Brits, at least they know what to look for and I believe somebody mentioned (not here) there is a phone number you can use to check. But then there are a lot of Brits who don't have good enough command of French to understand how to use it (would include myself in this bracket).

If you want to start out as an Artisan you need to go and register. Part of the 'signing up' procedure is to attend a weeks course. Now this may vary from one area to another but in general it's about how to start a business and where to get help from including both money and legal.

I do think that the French could use the UK possibly as a role model for small business's as it does seem a bit stacked against you here. I guess three years here has made me more aware of how the French work and think, although I am by no means an expert. I like France as it is thats why I moved here. Why would I want to write to my PM here when I can't vote in national elections as I am not French.

A few myths about tax's. As an artisan and using the Micro Enterprise and Micro Bic system you are actually better of than in the Uk (well I am), it's when you start employing people it gets expensive.

It's part of the French Civil or Penal Code (law) I don't know which. The French are aware of the code so it's up to them who they employee. You get more freedom here, you know the law, igranance is no excuse but you know the penalty.

I do believe that if people are unaware of the law they could make the same mistake and end up in a similar situation thats why I would like to see a warning in the magazine.

Why should I care about why a person has not registered. Surly if you want to start a business you do your homework.

Not all people working on the black are disadvantaged, thats a myth also. More to the point in most cases it's good old greed. Why should I pay more tax to cover that which is not paid by greedy people. If they where all 'grassed' and had to work legally the tax and social charges would drop because there would be more money in the governments bank. It's a chicken and egg problem (or Catch 22).

 

[Bones]

- Nobody is interested in MP's perks and wages here in France, do they do their job is the most important thing. -

They are bothered, especially when the greedy gits decide it's not quite enough and break the law (and they're not 'starting out'.)

- Part of the 'signing up' procedure is to attend a weeks course. Now this may vary from one area to another but in general it's about how to start a business and where to get help from including both money and legal. -

I've contributed an anecdote in an earlier post that described a friend of mine who was attended the course and was told (by a hotel des impots rep!!) that those not dabbling in black risk going under pretty quickly! But they will try and catch you...great bit of advice and support there then!

- I do believe that if people are unaware of the law they could make the same mistake and end up in a similar situation thats why I would like to see a warning in the magazine.

You've convinced me - perhaps they could provide links to articles/websites that deal with the rules - or just pop this in the FAQ and direct people towards the thread prior to checking out the ads??

- Why should I care about why a person has not registered. Surly if you want to start a business you do your homework. -

Well I have. And every time we attended a course or accessed a cooperative we were 'surprised' by 'new rules' and just about every poxy barrier you could imagine to setting up our chosen enterprise. That's why I'll probably end up on some guy's roof! Laughable and frustrating. (importing car parts by the way). You don't 'have' to care but perhaps you 'should' - caring is a good thing!

- Not all people working on the black are disadvantaged, thats a myth also. More to the point in most cases it's good old greed. Why should I pay more tax to cover that which is not paid by greedy people. If they where all 'grassed' and had to work legally the tax and social charges would drop because there would be more money in the governments bank. It's a chicken and egg problem (or Catch 22). -

Well, there are cheats and greedy people at all levels of social strata: It's like saying that 'most' registered workers are greedy fat-cat embezzlers - and that would of course include yourself. Not true is it? Perhaps it's not true of 'black' workers. Just perhaps...

 I believe you're correct that if most black work was declared it would help the economy. Trouble is that a heck of a lot of businesses would fold without some 'black' element; others would go back to their day job (if they could find it): the economy would suffer terribly. It would need to be a huge majority of unregistered work that was declared - given the aforementioned scenario that's asking a hell of a leap of faith - this needs to be addressed from 'above' and I'll deal with that in my last point (if you haven't fallen asleep by then!). 

Also, the last figures I saw stated that the majority of unregistered workers are Students, RMIstes and Dolies! Not greedy folk. This is seasonal work/bits here and there and not something you'd risk giving up your (poxy) state benefits for - if your venture fails you won't get them back. Yes, you could call them greedy 'benefits cheats' - but where are all these jobs they're avoiding?! My family of three recieve around 600e a month - forgive me but if a day's work pops up: I'll take it. 

It is catch 22 and it is stupid - the taxes are high - so the employers use 'black' labour - the taxes would actually lower if they ALL declared their real earnings - more ventures would sprout up: everybody's happy. But is the debate centred around the stupidity and failure of the government/tax office strategy? No. Is there a massive state sponsored push towards reconciliation between the system and business? No. Just scare stories and the pillorying of ten a penny casual labourers.

Power to the people!!  

 

[LesFlamands]

Most people that I've come across working on the black are planning to register 'when their french gets better'. Some have got the wrong end of the stick and believe that you have to pay the first years social charges up front. Some are genuine and committed to making the move to France permanent, others are not but feel the need to make feeble excuses when pressed. I also know a few who have worked long term on the black (10 years plus) but their main reason for not registering is that they don't need to work full time and ther is no provision within the system for working part time. There are other ways of working legally but the client would generally be put off these on the grounds of added complications.

Our chambre de Metiers now offers the stage in English which means that the language competance issue should no longer apply.

There are still, however, are large number of Brit employers who support the black system even though they are aware of the rules (but maybe not the pitfalls - most don't stay long so end up paying any savings as CGT when they sell). These employers use the fact that someone is not registered to beat the price down - I'd only pay such and such for that in the UK, take or leave it approach. This simply creates a black economy amongst the dreadful incestuous , I know best, come here to show the locals how it's done types, and legit businesses are condemned for simply working within the system and having to charge more to cover costs. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of work around for legitimate operators but I still feel totally justified in notifying the authorities of any black sites.

[Bones]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

You sympathise with a lot of unregistered workers motivations but blame rather the employers? So you inform upon the employer?

Again, I just don't understand the thinking of people who inform upon people without a care in the world as to the motivations of the transgressor.

I suppose for such people the law is the law and that's the end of it.

(Sorry if I've misinterpereted the gist of your post by the way.)

Funny you should mention the translation thing: is it true that the state no longer offer free french lessons to english jobseekers in order to accomodate the new eastern bloc EU members?

[LesFlamands]

I can sympathise with some peoples reasons for not registering but, in the end, if they are committed to living in France' most people have no choice as they will need healthcare, pensions etc.

Someone who is not registered to work is doing nothing illegal until they are employed and actually on site working. I think that educating the potential employers re. rules and regulation is only a part solution. There are a large number of people out there always looking for a deal and if breaking the law is part of that (with no apparent consequences) then they seem to be quite happy to do it.

[Tonyf]

Those who have been faced with a huge cotisations bill here in France, may have a little more understanding as to the situation that Archant, amongst others, fuel.

Archant's position is a bit like an Albanian/Eastern European newspaper carrying advertisements from Immigration consultants in the UK who can advise their clients how best to gain entry to the UK, claim benefits, work illegally and generally cheat the system.

If such a newspaper did such a thing, I imagine your average Brit would be up in arms, and rightly so.

As for actual criticisms of the french system being flawed and oppressive.  If you don't like it either vote out the government (assuming you are qualified to do so) or leave.

[Will]

Tony, that statement is rubbish I am afraid.

Archant's position mirrors far more closely that of the British regional press which carries advertisements for all kinds of trades, products and services, many of them decidedly dodgy (in fact Archant's core business is British regional press). Nobody complains about - for example - UK used car dealers with proven records of 'clocking' etc advertising in local papers, I know of one that spends a lot of money in the paper for the English town in which we have a house; in fact John Prescott bought one of his Jags there (says it all I suppose). The Daily Mail is full of editorial on how asylum seekers beat the British system, no need to advertise (so do other papers, just that I used to work for the Daily Mail).

I think Les Flamands has the right outlook on this problem.

Yes, I pay cotisations in France too.

[Tonyf]

Disagree, Bill.  Possibly because their business (archant) unfairly effects my business.

The 'clocking' comparison is rubbish.  People with criminal convictions are not forbidden to advertise.  Archer's publishers will undoubtedly do so on his behalf when his next book comes out (though Isuppose that, like his evidence, is also fiction).

What we are talking about here is Archant knowlingly fuellling the black market economy in France to the detriment of the legal work force and that is fact.  It matters not what the British regional press may do. 

My experience has been, when advertising my business in France, that the newspaper (French) asks for my SIRET as part of the form.  That's not too difficult.

The Daily Mail?  I think everyone stopped believing what was written there years go.

 

[Bones]

 -- As for actual criticisms of the french system being flawed and oppressive.  If you don't like it either vote out the government (assuming you are qualified to do so) or leave. --

Er... what if my one vote didn't have the desired effect? I supposed I'd be forced to leave; damn.

Still, It would be back to the warm bosom of Blair's Britain for me and I'd get the Daily Mail delivered every day! Woo - hoo!

Actualy I love the Daily Mail; it's immigrants and dole cheats schtick is comicaly shoe-horned into every major news story available  - that's entertainment. 

Will, the father of one of my friends used to work for the Mail. He told me this anecdote about the editor's somewhat uncharacteristicly staunch stance on the Stephen Lawrence murder (remember the mail championed the family's fight for justice): He reckoned that the ed was uninterested until - outraged - he discovered that the father of Stephen was the very same man who (I think) painted his house.

So you see: good workmanship does pay in the long run.

(apologies if that last line was a bit inappropriate - please remove the post if you think so.)

[Quillan]

"Each one will be displaying his or her Siret number and/or UK reg. company number or will indicate that are in the process of being registered, all the services that they can provide and the areas and departments which they are able to cover in France."

From the adverts page http://www.french-property-news.com/fpn/artisananglais.htm who owns FPN?

I have spent the last hour going through their clasified and only managed to find 3 adverts that had no registration details but their websites did. The rest either carried a SIRET number or because they operated out of the UK were limited companies. Some were actually registered in the UK and France. I also noted that the adverts on the French Magazine website had SIRET numbers except one that operated in France building houses. Their proffesional details can be found on their own website. And who owns the? Well guess what Archant owns them all. Where are they printed and sold, UK. It would seem that LF is a little out of phase with it's suster magazines.

[Ernie]

It's good to see all you honest builders getting airyated about Siret numbers. My builder is Siret Numbered up to his eyeballs but it didn't stop him saying that we didn't need to worry about guarantees because everyone was insured and yet when I asked to see his insurance, he's only been able to offer it to me now, after 90 per cent of the job is already done and the dates only apply from now! Meanwhile, some of the work is seriously faulty and there are important things not finished. What's more, I'm pretty sure he's employed some of the labourers on the black.

[Iceni]

Hi Ernie

I gather that we are entitled to see the 10 year guarantee before work starts - bit late to tell you that now but we all live and learn.

[Will]

quote: "Each one will be displaying his or her Siret number and/or UK reg. company number or will indicate that are in the process of being registered, all the services that they can provide and the areas and departments which they are able to cover in France."

From the adverts page http://www.french-property-news.com/fpn/artisananglais.htm who owns FPN?

There is some confusion here. This disclaimer is not from French Property News' own advertising pages, it comes from Artisan Anglais, a web site set up for English-speaking tradesmen registered to work in France. AA is not connected with French Property News other than the fact that it advertises itself on FPN's web site (and, indeed, in certain Archant publications, including Living France). The disclaimer applies only to Artisan Anglais, and doesn't appear on FPN's classified pages.

Nevertheless, even a specialised advertising medium like Artisan Anglais relies on advertisers being truthful - it does not check the details of the companies there itself and puts the responsibility on the prospective client, e.g. "All people using this website must accept responsibility for checking the Siret number and insurance details of any artisan they consider employing or actually employ". That seems fair enough to me - I know of one company which advertised there (I don't think it does so now) that had a perfectly valid SIRET number but ran other, non-building, businesses at the same address under the same registration number.

The site also appears to accept advertisements from UK registered companies for carrying out work in France, which is something many of those posting here believe to not be 100% legal.

 

[Tonyf]

So are we agreed that French Property News and Living France openly peddle advertisements from illegal companies, workers and estate agents in France who are, in all likelihood, are uninsured, and the consequences for the respondents may be catastrophic?

Oh, but that's alright though.

[Russethouse]

The fact is Archant publishes FPN, France Magazine and Living France in the Uk therefore it is only obliged to abide by UK legislation.

If you would like them to undertake a voluntary obligation to publish a note about Sirets or follow some different code of practice I suggest you write to them to suggest it, rather than take advantage of a web site that they provide free of charge to accuse them of

'openly peddle advertisements from illegal companies, workers and estate agents in France who are, in all likelihood, are uninsured'

which somehow sounds as if Archant are doing something dreadfully illegal, which they are not. I'm afraid by couching it the terms you have chosen you do nothing to advance the cause.

[Val_2]

We have advertised in FPN for over ten years now and never once have we been asked to display our SIRET number even though we have had it for that period. We have a limited space for our ad and were told that mentioning registration and insurance cover was more than adequate as these would mean we had a SIRET anyway. I now think I will update our ad and ad the reg no so that viewers do not get the wrong idea because so many get confused.

[Val_2]

Di. Funny you should mention the guarantee etc as previously we have always just been given the policy as proof of having this for our clients and have always been more than happy to show them. However with this recent renewal of policy,the insurers have sent a great wad of copies of this policy to send out and so we have to the larger projects with their estimates. Anyone who shies away from showing a customer his policy has something to hide as I have always said and usually he dosn't have any insurance.

As for businesses in publications, do a spot check on say 10 different ones and you will find on average, only about three are properly registered in France anyway regardless of whether they are builders,architects or hairdressers. Its only a matter of time before the authorities scan through these magazines and take note of the advertisers and go after them here for back charges.

[Tonyf]

[quote]The fact is Archant publishes FPN, France Magazine and Living France in the Uk therefore it is only obliged to abide by UK legislation.If you would like them to undertake a voluntary obligation to pub...[/quote]

Are we so grateful for this forum that we are forbidden to criticise, quite legitimately and, I believe, with good cause, a business that benefits from illegal work in France?

The fact is that Archant do well out of this forum, the pro publicity that it generates etc.

I understand that Russett House, has an interest as an administrator/moderator of the forum and would want to defend the masters.

However, has he/she the same problems as those of us working in France against the illegal competition that benefit from Archant's lack of concern?

Also, just a thought, do the administrators/moderators have a fiduciary relationship with Archant?

Archant's apparent compliance with UK Law is not the point.  The point is that they benefit from a foreign market and economy and show no regard for those who actually exist within that economy.

Oh, and thanks for the Forum.

[Quillan]

"Also, just a thought, do the administrators/moderators have a fiduciary relationship with Archant?"

I can only speak for myself as a moderator. I am not employed in any way form or mean either directly or indirectly by LF or any other company including Archant. All I am is a voluntary moderator of this forum. I have no right to determine, pre-empt or comment on their advertising policy, magazine content or basically anything else as a moderator. Like wise I am not privy to any of Archants publishing policies as a moderator.

This is the reason why I made a point of stating at the very beginning that all my comments in this thread were as a normal forum member as not as a moderator and have left it to the other moderators to moderate this thread as they see fit because of my obvious conflict of interest.

 

[Miki]

"....Also, just a thought, do the administrators/moderators have a fiduciary relationship with Archant?"

Bit of a weird question, seeing as Quillan (mod) brought it all up

I have read it all and it is now a matter of going around in circles isn't it?

Some will agree some will disagree on whether Archant are acting illegally, the fact is, that at the end of the day they run under English law, so are acting accordingly and legally. Whether you think that is moral or not, is another matter.

We cannot all be mollycoddled (sp) full time and we all have to learn ourselves about living in a "foreign" land. Some will learn pretty quickly, some will never learn much at all. So I guess the real point I wish to make is, the need for everyone to ask questions and hopefully sort the "wheat from the chaff" as are as the answers are concerned. If I tell someone to look out for the persons Siret number, they have been told, if they ignore that due to not being able to find a bulder with those credentials, as they need someone "yesterday" and they don't have the "neccessary" then so be it. It is their "look out", both "artisan" and client should know the rules, ignorance is not an issue.

From my experience, many Brits just want the work done pretty quickly and within a time scale that suits them, especially the 2nd home owners, who generally hope to have the work done whilst away. This scenario may well mean that people will look more for a chap who can do it to their timings, siret or no sirets, that's the facts ! Of course many people and that includes the French, will probably more often than not, want a person who has the full credentials, siret and more importantly perhaps, the correct insurance but as is life the world over, many will want the best job for the cheapest amount and that is where the whole thing can collapse. No such thing as a free lunch etc bit not alwats a hard and fast rule.

Some artisans will do an amount on the black, not all of course, the risks are there. I wont speak for all regions but all over the parts of France we have lived, there has never been any shortage of "travail au noir" and you could put posters in every shop window and every newspaper telling folks to not employ anyone without their siret and still it would go on, c'est la vie..especially here in France and you can add the World to that !!

Quite honestly and perhaps they already do it but, a simple line at the start of the section of people advertising for work warning people to ask for siret numbers from anyone they wish to employ may be the moral answer ?

Now when is that winter wood going to arrive ? bet the sod hasn't got a siret number either

[Will]

This, obvilously, is written as a forum member rather than a member of the forum organisation. Like Quillan and the other moderators I receive no benefit from this voluntary activity (other than a complementary subscription to Living France magazine) - in fact at times the benefits of being a moderator seem to weigh far more on the negative side than the positive.

I very much doubt that Archant's senior management, who would have to endorse any publishing decision that potentially restricted advertising income, read these forums. So if anybody has strong feelings they should contact senior management direct (you will find contact details at www.archant.co.uk/contact2.aspx - Archant Life is the division concerned). Direct contact from readers/advertisers/customers is likely to carry far more weight than forum admin passing on comments from the forum.

I do, however, work in magazine publishing myself (not for Archant) so have in-depth knowledge of the practicalities, and importance, of magazine advertising. Although I would personally prefer to see only totally legitimate advertising in any magazine I know how difficult it would be to police this - as a French resident who pays cotisations I feel I know more about the subject than most staff of advertising departments of a UK publisher, nevertheless I would certainly not relish the job of policing who is and who is not permitted to advertise.

I think the most effective way for those who feel strongly about this issue would be to withdraw their own advertising from FPN and LF until the so-called 'illegal' advertisements are disallowed. If this really is such a big issue to French-registered businesses then most of these businesses that are harmed by the appeaance of 'unofficial' ads would be likely to support such a campaign. The potential drop in revenue would certainly make the publishers sit up and take notice. Of course, if you don't advertise then that somewhat weakens the case. 

[Russethouse]

Really Tonyf, calling my creditability into question will not help, I am stating the facts.

I always try to see both sides of an argument and in some part I agree with Miki, people can't expect to be mollycoddled by anyone, leave alone a magazine publisher. Would you like publishers to sell burn kits, or oven gloves with cook books ?

However I do recognize that some people moving to France will not have heard of Siret numbers and I think it is a good idea for Archant to publish a note about them in their publications, but make no mistake, this would be entirely voluntary on their part (the law is the law no matter what you, or I, think) so the idea has to be sold to them.

In my experience you do not sell anything to anybody by deriding them and there morals first! Take a long cool look at what you want to achieve, the advantages and disadvantages from Archants point of view and then you/we may be able to persuade them to include something.

[Bones]

Hmmm.

Somebody mentioned that we're going around in circles now - I'm inclined to agree with that assessment!

I think the last few posts have wrapped this subject up pretty effectively.

I know I'm one to speak considering all my hijacking and soapboxing.... but shouldn't we end it there?

(This would have the added advantage of me having the last word on the matter...but that's irrelevant.)

Anyone posting after this point will be revealed to be a childish windbag who insists on having the last say about everything.

 

[JohnM]

I agree. Oh.......