We have just returned from France house hunting and now find all this.

[ebaynut]

We have just got back from a two week house hunting trip to France, we have been planning a move for sometime now, have read all the books, been following the advice in Archants publications and this web site.

We paid particular attention to the part regarding healthcare, my wife  has two of the thirty "conditions" which qualify for 100% cover.

As we understood it when we move to France we would be covered by a E106 for up to the first two years, during which time we would have to join the French health system. This being required by law, private insurance being illegal in France.

After our E106 runs out we would have to pay into the system a percentage of our income above approx €7000 per year.

We would also need top up insurance above what the state pays, but as my wife would get 100% cover for her illnesses from the state, this would not affect the cost of our top up cover.

Now after reading this new developement on our return, am I right in thinking that when our E106 (which we will get before the move to France) runs out that we will not be able to join the French healthcare system.

This being the case, then we will never get private cover for my wife, and therefore all our plans and hopes of moving to a new life in France will be gone.

We were going to start negotiations for our new home on Monday, but it now looks like this will not be possible.

Can anyone offer any hope to us or are we right in our assumptions?

Surely such a major change such as this should have been picked up by Archant and brought to ours, and all their other readers attention long ago.  This is why people buy their magazines and not just to look at the great pictures.

Any help and advice would  be very welcome.

 

 

[Clair]

Considering that not even the British Embassy was aware of the changes afoot, considering that the final decision regarding existing residents covered by E106 does not yet seem to have been agreed, considering that most CPAM offices do seem to agree on a common policy, I think it would be presumptuous, to say the least, to expect Archant to have all the answers.

As far as I can tell, you are right in thinking that you would need to subscribe to a private health scheme on the expiry of your E106 cover.

There are details on health care providers on this thread:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1017162/ShowPost.aspx

As with everything, advice on the forum is given according to each individual's circumstances and is not word of law, just advice and opinions.

[Russethouse]

We have just got back from a two week house hunting trip to France, we have been planning a move for sometime now, have read all the books, been following the advice in Archants publications and this web site. We paid particular attention to the part regarding heath care, my wife  has two of the thirty "conditions" which qualify for 100% cover. As we understood it when we move to France we would be covered by a E106 for up to the first two years, during which time we would have to join the French health system. This being required by law, private insurance being illegal in France. That WAS correct but as you have seen, has changed. As regards Private insurance the law was that if you were eligible to join the French health system you were not allowed to have Private insurance, if you could not enter the French system (as will be the case for many Brits now) it is quite legal to have Private health insurance After our E106 runs out we would have to pay into the system a percentage of our income above approx €7000 per year. We would also need top up insurance above what the state pays, but as my wife would get 100% cover for her illnesses from the state, this would not affect the cost of our top up cover. Now after reading this new developement on our return, am I right in thinking that when our E106 (which we will get before the move to France) runs out that we will not be able to join the French heath care system. This being the case, then we will never get private cover for my wife, and therefore all our plans and hopes of moving to a new life in France will be gone. If your wife has two of these conditions could she qualify for an E121? We were going to start negotiations for our new home on Monday, but it now looks like this will not be possible. Can anyone offer any hope to us or are we right in our assumptions? Surely such a major change such as this should have been picked up by Archant and brought to ours, and all their other readers attention long ago.  This is why people buy their magazines and not just to look at the great pictures. Given the lead in times for articles and the fact that there are still parts of the new regulations that are unclear it would have been difficult for anyone to get anything accurate and worthwhile into print beforehand, but I understand your frustration. Any help and advice would  be very welcome. You don't say how old you are or what you were going to do in France ?

[ebaynut]

Hi Clair and Russethouse,

Thanks for your speedy replies, boy you ladies are up late.

I thought from reading all the posts on the forum on this subject that this was in place and merely the French government interpreting the rules differently, if this is indeed a new ruling then I have misunderstood and thank you for pointing this out to me.

I am just so glad that we have not yet paid out a deposit on a property, as without suitable heathcare cover for my wife, we could not go to France, and as stated we would not be able to get private cover for her due to her health problems.

We will indeed look to see if my wife can get an E121, she receives the highest rate of disability living allowance, (which she would have to give up on moving to France), but am not sure that she will get an E121.

My age is early 50s, my wife late 40s, we were planning to live on savings, and money left from the sale of our house in the UK, until our endowments and pensions pay out in five years time.

Also, we planned to do the 'usual', ie gite, but only as a top up and to give us something to do. We fully appreceiate it is hard to try and earn a living doing this, it is more to have something to do.

I guess we will have to wait to see what happens, but it does make me wonder what may happen in the future, what other things may change to make life in France less attractive for people who settle there.

Look what happened in Spain.

Again, thank you both for your replies and suggestions, it is appreciated.

I doubt the immobiliers in France will welcome this change either, as I guess, at the very least, this particular sale will be put on hold.

 

[Russethouse]

It  is probably wise to hold fire on anything until you are quite clear what your position is as regards E121 and in the meantime perhaps the situation will become clearer.

I think the legislation was in place but not acted upon. I don't know, but I suspect that Sarkozys election has hastened this along, he made it very clear that he would not be subsidising early retirees, the legislation that allowed it was designed for another group of people altogether and this was a kind of loophole.

Not sure about immos not being keen, his other policies seem to encourage home ownership.

Clair has given you a link to Private Insurance companies, it looks as if that may not be too much more expensive for you if your wife can get the E121 and you were not able to 'piggy back' on to it. Don't give up yet.......

[Eslier]

[quote user="ebaynut"]

Also, we planned to do the 'usual', ie gite, but only as a top up and to give us something to do. We fully appreceiate it is hard to try and earn a living doing this, it is more to have something to do.

[/quote]

. . . in which case you don't have a problem.

As your gite will be your "main" source of income (i.e. more than 50% of earned income) then you will need to register as a business at the Chambre de Commerce. You only need to do this in your name and, once registered, you will be fully in the French system and receive your Carte Vitale through your designated Independent Caisse de Maladie. Your wife will automatically be covered under the same social security number and receive her own card without having to do any more. You will be required to pay cotisations into the French system which might mean that, for the first two years, you don't make much from letting your one gite but it will level out in due course. What's more important is that you will be "in the system" and will then always be so. Once your business is registered, your E106 becomes irrelevant and no longer applies anyway. When setting up a business in France it is always advisable to seek advice from a French accountant who can help you through the process and assist you in making the right decisions relating to business type and tax régime.

[Will]

I think Eslier's reply may be a bit premature too. As Clair and Rusethouse have stressed, nothing is definite yet, but there have been conflicting reports about whether running gites and/or B&B will count as a business for health care affiliation purposes - otherwise everbody could just designate a room for 'letting' and pay minimum cotisations just to get into the system. There may well be a certain level of turnover above which newly-registered rentals will be considered as a business, but this too is just rumour and speculation at this point.

It's not really a new ruling, it is all based on an EU guideline dating back to, I think, March 2006, which aimed to clarify residence requirements for residents from one EU country in another. The rule on which it was based has in fact been in place for a long time, but has been applied differently in various countries, at least in respect of health cover and being able to support oneself to the extent of 'not being a burden on the host country's social security system'. It depends how the host country's medical system is organised, so cannot be a universal rule. Obviously, if a new arrival has existing medical conditions that would cost vastly more to deal with than the person is likely to pay in contributions, under the letter of the law one could indeed be considered a 'burden'.

As you mention, Spain has required non-nationals not covered by an E form to take out private health cover, and there are still plenty of British taking early retirement there. There are plenty of providers of such cover, including BUPA and many Spanish companies, whereas with private cover being rare and specialised in France it is a far less profitable and competitive business, so expect rates in France to drop as more insurers fight for what could be good business.

It's also worth pointing out that having a condition on the 'list' does not mean 100% cover is automatic. It has to be recomended by a doctor and agreed by the local CPAM. It is quite likely, given this ruling, that CPAMs may not agree to give such cover to newly-resident non-nationals - but again we don't know one way or the other at this time.

 

[Russethouse]

Ebaynut, Keep an eye on the forum, as soon as there is definite news we post it. There is already an FAQ by Sunday Driver in the legal section and as soon as there are verified facts it will be added to. (speculation goes in other threads !)Also it may be worth watching the list of Private health care providers and perhaps getting quotes as a couple and individually.

At the moment the question concerning many people is whether or not those who are already in France on E106s will be able to affiliate to the system once those expire. I suspect the next question will be how and at what proportion/level of income those that run Gites and B&Bs may be included.

Let us know how you progress and any extra information you discover.

Perhaps you can see now why Archant, along with others, didn't rush into print with at best half a story.[8-)]

[Catalpa]

There are also publication deadline constraints. All of the France-related Archant publications are monthly, I think - so editorial for the September editions was probably complete by... July sometime? Will will have a better insight into this than I do. The new application of (as Will says) existing legislation probably qualifies as breaking news and the situation to begin with was unclear... to say the least.

This is purely my view - and perhaps I'm risk averse - but if I had a long-term, serious illness, I'm not sure I'd be up for moving permanently to another country. I'd want to stay where I was sure I was going to continue to be entitled to the care and medication I needed. We can never guarantee that there won't be rule changes that will aversely affect us in our home countries - but at least as a citizen of that country, one has a voice. In another country...

But as I said, I'm probably just risk-averse. [:D]

[Will]

Catalpa, yes, as editor of a monthly magazine myself, I can say that my September issue, which came out on 7 September, had an editorial copy date of 6 August. The absolute final date for adding or changing copy was 20 August, though very minor changes could be made at final approval of the page proofs on 23 August. That is a trade magazine from a comparatively small publisher, and Archant's consumer magazines (from my own experience working on an IPC consumer mag) are likely to have even longer lead times.

As the first I, and most other people, heard of the possible changes was notification on another forum on 27 August, then the October issues of Living France, France, FPN etc would be the earliest possible to warn people, and even that might be tight. This was picked up by the Sunday Times and printed in their 2 September issue, which is when most people learned of the change. And there is also the question of the wisdom of printing unconfirmed stories - a lot of users of French forums criticised even the Sunday Times for what they felt was 'scaremongering'.

[Carina]

Hi

Is your wife in reciept of either Incapacity Benefit or Invalidity Benefit in the UK - if so it is my understanding that she will have an E106 that would be valied until her normal retirement age.

Regards Carina

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Carina"]

Hi

Is your wife in reciept of either Incapacity Benefit or Invalidity Benefit in the UK - if so it is my understanding that she will have an E106 that would be valied until her normal retirement age.

Regards Carina

[/quote]

If the wife is in receipt of Incapacity/Invalidity benefit (whatever they call it now) she will be entitled to an E121 and unless this current debacle sees a rule change, then any dependents will be included also.

[Ron Avery]

Been away at a wedding, so just catching up, nice to see the innaccurates are having a field day and well done SD, Coops and Benjamin for fighting the rising tide of false information and speculation.

Are Archant through RH now taking the lead on getting the truth over?  Perhaps Archant should buy out that rag C***t**ns  or perhaps Archant or this Forum should invite the MD of Executive Healthcare to explain how come he is the only one who knows that "thousands of ex-pats will lose their entitlement to French Healthcare" as hundreds have now found out this is just not happening.  I have just received my statement for payments to URSSAF for the forthcoming year so I can presume,  I think, that I will continue to be in the system despite what the so called expert is saying.  If I was with that insurer I would seriously wonder if they have a clue about what is going on in FRance and find another Mutuelle fast.

Couple of other points, from other posts, as an EU citizen you did not and nowhere was it suggested that you had to have a carte or titre de sejour to prove residency to CPAM.  Read SD's post, as ever accurate all you had to do was copy your tax advice. Now if that catches a load of people who have been freeloading  over here out well quite frankly tough, perhaps that headline in C***t**ns   should have read "Thousands (hundreds) of ex-pats who live in France but do not declare their tax in France to lose their Healthcare"

Second, even if it did require a T de S to prove residency, they are/were not given away.  As a "retraite" you had to prove that you could support yourself and not be a burden on the state before getting one, so if you cannot show income for a tax return/advice, you would not be able to get a T de Sejour anyway.

[ebaynut]

Thanks to everyone who has responded, much obliged.

My wife receives Disability Living Allowance (DLA), at the highest rate, which includes the care componant.

Had she been working when she was taken ill she would (possibly) also have been entitled to Incapacity Benefit. This is based on your N.I. contributions.

As she was only 36 at the time of the start of her problems, she was not working, as we had two children who she was looking after. (OK ladies we all know this is REAL work).

If we move to France, she would have to give up her DLA, as this is not payable overseas at present. I believe there is an ongoing case at the ECJ which MAY change this, but its only a maybe, and I keep looking on the forum for updates on this, but there has been nothing of late.

As this particular benefit is not payable overseas, then she would not be entitled to an E121, which would allow her the same treatment in France (no doubt, better!) as she gets here in the UK, for the rest of her life.

I could get an E106, based on my NI contibutions, which would also include my wife, but this is for a maximum of two years, after which we would have to get private insurance for our healthcare.

And....there is the problem, I can get cover, if my present good heath continues, I dont mind having to pay, after all I currently pay for private heathcare in the UK, as from experience, I would not care to use NHS hospitals, (my wife having had a bad case of CD caught from a stay in Addenbrookes, and my father in law having to wait months for cancer appointments.)

But the problem is....NO-ONE would insure my wife, we were told her tablets alone were over £30,000 per year about 5 years ago.

Please, don't get me wrong, I don't blame the French, they are doing as they should, and looking after their own countrymen first. But, if any EU member, or anyone moves to the UK, they can get full, free healthcare (such as it is) and to qualify, you only need to be resident here.

If only the UK had done this 15 years ago, we, and no doubt many others, would not be planning to leave their home country for a life overseas.

Hopefully, in the fullness of time, we will find a way around this, and be able to enjoy a new life in France, and thanks go to Russethouse for your encouragement, we will not give up, and keep checking for updated information clarifying the situation.

The above is how I understand things to be, but if I am wrong please correct me.

 

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

As this particular benefit is not payable overseas, then she would not be entitled to an E121, which would allow her the same treatment in France (no doubt, better!) as she gets here in the UK, for the rest of her life.

Have you spoken to someone official today about it ?

It doesn't seem very fair to me, what about applying for the E121 and if/when you get a refusal raising the issue with your MP? I appreciate there is a certain amount of stress involved but it might just be worth a shot.

[Grecian]

ebaynut

May I suggest that if your wife is going to try and claim incapacity benefit, thus entitling her to an E121, that she does it before next April, when the benefit changes its name, and all that it will bring with it.

Any new claimants after next April will have a lot harder time trying to claim the benefit, with work related interviews, trying to assess what the claimant can do, and not what they in can't do. The bar will be raised in the assessment, thus trying to keep as many (probably genuine) people off the benefit as possible. Supposedly, existing claimants will not be affected.

 

 

[ebaynut]

Since my last posting I have been in touch with various people at Newcastle regarding obtaining an E121 for my wife.

It seems that she is not entitled to it, because she was not paying NI stamps at the time of her problems, (I was, but that doesn't count) and even though her condition MAY be worse than SOME people receiving Incapacity Benefit, she is consequently only entitled to DLA.

If receiving Incapacity Benefit you can receive an E121, with  DLA you cannot.

We could argue that without the E121, that she is being denied her rights to live in another EU country of her choice.

The french could argue, she could come, but must pay for all her own treatment, but reading the new rules SD posted on having to have a TDS, to obtain one, you need to show that you have health insurance, which she could not obtain.

Anyway, I have asked Newcastle to send me a letter stating she cannot have an E121, and when I receive this I will be contacting my MEP to see if they can find out anything, or offer any help.

As stated earlier, I don't for one second blame the French government for this, clearly all those people already in France on either an E121 or E106 should have their healthcare honoured, I just wish I had known about the possibility that this could happen.

Of course the French don't want to pick up the tab for my wifes healthcare, I just thought (wrongly) that as we were all part of the EU, that by going to France this would be one of the benefits of being in a member country of the EU. After all, it WAS by law that we had to join the French health system.

I can think of many bad things that have come out of being in the EU, but probably best I don't go there I think. 

Russethouse, many thanks for the PM, I agree with your thoughts on this, when I said about immos not being happy about this, I meant the one who has most probably lost their commission on the property that we would have brought, not immos in general.

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="ebaynut"]But, if any EU member, or anyone moves to the UK, they can get full, free healthcare (such as it is) and to qualify, you only need to be resident here.[/quote]I sympathise with your position but I'm also glad you've found out about all this before it was too late, however I think you'll find that this statement is incorrect.

Unless in receipt of the equivalent of an EHIC or E106 I believe the current rules require EU immigrants to have worked and paid tax & NI for 6 months before becoming entitled to any benefits.

Of course, what happens in practice and after that period may be entirely different !

My situation has some passing similarities to yours in that, although we have actually now moved, we both have existing health issues which thankfully are not too serious but undoubtedly enough to make private insurance difficult or impossibly expensive.

My wife is under retirement age and has been refused an E106 but fortunately I am still working in the UK, and had planned to continue doing so for a couple of years, so will be covered by either E106 or E109 (still waiting to see which HMRC give me) in addition we are also covered by private health insurance through my job which I can extend to international at a cost of around £500.

Worst case scenario for me then is that I have to carry on working for a good bit longer than I'd like to (currently only 57) but it's something we can live with if it comes to it.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you.

[Will]

Just to clarify Ernie's reply, this is the official goverment view on entitlement to NHS care:

"Past or present payment of UK taxes or National Insurance contributions are not taken into account when establishing eligibility to receive free NHS treatment. NHS eligibility relates to being 'ordinarily resident' in the United Kingdom. Overseas visitors are defined as persons of any nationality, including British nationals, not ordinarily resident in the UK.

The courts have decided that a person is regarded as 'ordinarily resident' in the UK if he or she is lawfully living in the UK voluntarily and for a settled purpose. Ordinarily resident is a common law concept considered by the House of Lords in 1982 (the case being considered was in the context of the Education Acts, although the Lords' interpretation is generally accepted as having a wider application).

Anybody who is in the UK for 'a settled purpose' will normally be considered to be 'ordinarily resident'; in practice, following court cases, this means anyone who is in the UK for a period of six months or more. Special regulations apply to EEA residents and visitors from bilateral healthcare agreement countries."

So in effect, if you are legally working in Britain, or have been there for more than six months, you should, in theory, have no problem, though the interpretation does seem to rest with the particular hospital or practice to some extent. The EEA 'special regulations' refer to the fact that Europeans can get the same treatment if they hold an EHIC equivalent from their home country, but 'health tourism', i.e. visiting primarily for the purpose of getting free medical treatment, is specifically excluded.

Also, this begs the question about who issues the card if you do not belong to a national system like the CMU. Maybe somebody with experience of EU countries such as Germany, where the state health system is funded by private insurance, will know the answer?

[cooperlola]

It is interesting Will, that during my research for alternative healthcare providers, most of the policies giving full cover, also extend it to all EU countries - sometimes at an extra cost.  As many of the UK policies which give the right kind of cover, were aimed at those in Spain who were affected in a similar way in recent years, I surmised that this was to cover the EHIC problem.  Ergo, your private healthcare insurance must cover you in all other EU countries, including the UK.  I assume that this is how non EU citizens (if they are affected!) cope too.

[Will]

[quote user="cooperlola"]It is interesting Will, that during my research for alternative healthcare providers, most of the policies giving full cover, also extend it to all EU countries - sometimes at an extra cost.  As many of the UK policies which give the right kind of cover, were aimed at those in Spain who were affected in a similar way in recent years, I surmised that this was to cover the EHIC problem.  Ergo, your private healthcare insurance must cover you in all other EU countries, including the UK.  I assume that this is how non EU citizens (if they are affected!) cope too.[/quote]

And that, I think, is the crux of the matter. The British state system is based on residence, i.e. once you cease to be a resident you have no automatic rights to British healthcare, whereas most other counties' systems are insurance based, and the cover can be more easily extended to wherever you happen to be at the time. Many British in France seem to feel that the British state system is at fault for not covering them when they reside in France, but there would be an even bigger outcry in Britain if the whole basis of the NHS was to be changed to bring it into line with other European countries, even though there are plenty of moans about the NHS.

[cooperlola]

Of course, because the logical extension of this is that anybody in the EU wanting medical treatment would just go to the UK, where it is 100% free - this really is where the complications all begin - and why there is suddenly a sense of shock that government sponsored medical care may no longer be an option.  People were prepared to accept top-up insurance, but 100% - that is another matter.  Funny how appealing the good old NHS suddenly begins to seem when one's wallet gets a bashing!

[sunshine 2]

Cooperlola - your contributions are usually thoughtful and well constructed ones.  I can only think you had a bit of an insensitive 'flip' when you wrote the above.  Its not that we are upset about our pockets taking a hit - it's that many of us has now developed conditions that we simply will not get cover for under a totally private scheme.  Don't forget that 'Top Up' never took account of pre-existing conditions and did not discriminate in its charges for pre-exisitng conditions - no one was denied insurance for, say heart problems or cancer.

We do have a large contingency fund (thank goodness) and would not mind paying, say, the other 70% to make our Top Up into 100% even though it is another 7 years before I can get an E121.  It's the thought of getting private insurance that excludes the v serious conditions my husband has developed during the last 3 years that scares me.  At the moment our contingency fund will be spent re-locating to UK because that will be the only place that he can get ongoing treatment as we could not afford to pay privately for treatment ongoing.

[cooperlola]

I was not making a dig at anybody (I'm affected too!) - simply pointing out how much we all take our free health care for granted.  It really begins to hit home once one is faced with covering the true cost of health care, doesn't it?  It might make people think again before moaning about high levels of taxation, once they realise what they really have been getting for their money all these years.  That has always seemed to me to be the whole point about nationally funded healthcare (and other welfare) schemes - that those who have support those who have not, because one day, it may be us....