Gite and CdH owners "inactif" ?

[AnOther]

We were in CPAM in Cahors this morning chasing up our CV's which had been promised in 20 days a few weeks ago.

Whilst there we happened to strike up a conversation with another English couple who had been in France for about 4 years and ran a Chambre d'hotes.

They had received a letter informing them that their CMU was being withdrawn and they had come to query it. The clerk they spoke to confirimed that this was correct and that running a Chambre d'hotes was still considered "inactif" and therefore did not qualify them for cover.

Didn't get the CV's BTW, told to wait until mid November !

[Jazzer]

As to running a chambre d'hote the reply given sounds suspicious. I have now recived my letter advising that in jan my cover will cease. There is a sheet enclosed suggesting that further information can be received if  you rent a gite,chambre d'hote and activities artisinale to contact the regime social des independants du Poitou-Charentes (RSI) . - I live in Charente maritime. At the moment I am registered under the micro regime but I have been considering going down the full route.

[Danny]

[quote user="Jazzer"]At the moment I am registered under the micro regime but I have been considering going down the full route.[/quote]

Jazzer, now I am confused. I don't quite get that. if you are registered under the micro regime, are you not already "going down the full route"? The micro entreprise regime is just a tax regime and nothing to do with bring a registered business or not. As a registered business, one is not affiliated to CPAM but the appropiate caisse for the category of business. In my case, (artisan), I am affiliated to the RSI to whom I pay all cotisations and receive any reimbursments for health care. I do operate under the Micro regime but it does not affect the levels of charges I have to pay.

Maybe you could elaborate?

Danny

 

[Glyn]

Jazzer,

I would not have thought that the tax regime that you are registered under would affect your entitlement to health cover via the RSI. As long as you are registered with the chamber of commerce and pay you cotisations that should be OK.

It troubles me when I hear of people who run gites/chambre d'hotes being classed as 'inactif'. Again I would of thought that as long as you register with the CCI etc you should be covered. I would think that the French would be treading on even more dangerous ground with the EU if they were to disregard certain types of employment/ self employment.

Glyn

[Panda]

I think what he means is that you can register as a mico for gites (or B&B) but not pay cotisations.  We have this scenario, I work and am profession liberale, we also had gites, these were just given a siret number but no cotisations are paid on this, similarly we have long term let flats, these too have a siret but we do not pay cotisations on these. 

As neither the gites or the long term let are our main income they can be registered in this way and lots of people are set up this way, either because they have another profession or they have a good pension. 

 

 

[Jazzer]

Being a total novice the replies to my post have cleared  my mind even though I may have confused many others.I am registered as a micro for my gite but pay no cotisations. I now feel I should register with the RSI and this should enable me to join the health system. My concern was that CPAM had advised someone that this was still regarded  as "Inactif"

 

Following on if I am able to  take this route  when would I start paying cotisations and cover commence?

[Panda]

I don't know what's involved in moving from one type of micro to another, you are basically changing from non-professional to professional and I would guess, and it is a guess, that you would have to re register.  If this were the case cotisations would start from the date of registering the new professional business and cover would also commence from that date.

I would go and see an accountant, my set up was all carried out by an accountant and I would have been lost without his input.

[Panda]

Has anyone doen the above, changed from being a micro that does not pay cotisations (non prof ) to one that does??  I'm intrigued now about the inactif thing.

[AnOther]

Not that we were earwigging you understand (anyone who has been in CPAM in Cahors will know it's very open plan and conversations can be less than completely private !) but with all the talk of cotisations I do recall overhearing the word mentioned a few times so perhaps that is the crux of the matter.

[Glyn]

Panda,

You would actually not be changing from Micro regime to anything as this is just your tax regime. I would imagine all you would have to do is go to the local Chamber of Commerce and say you want to create an Enterprise Individuelle. They will ask you a number of questions including what your business is, what tax regime you want to use (Micro) and when you want the business to start. You pay them a fee to register (about 100 euro) and they send all your details to the various departments. (including one to issue a siret, RSI for pension contributions, URSAFF for social security contributions and chosen caisse for health contributions).

You then wait for the bills for the contributions to start dropping on your door step!

We have just done this recently for another type of business and the process was relatively straight forward. I would imagine it would be similar for a gite business but please take professional advice first.

Regards.

[Cat]

I have split several posts out of the "breaking news" thread, and started this new thread to continue the conversation about gite and CdH owners, inactivity and tax regimes.

[Panda]

Hi

Yes but in this case the micro has already been set up but not as a professional business, just a side line (does not pay cotisations), if people now want to change this to being a professional business I said I thought you might have to reregister, but perhaps you can ask for the current siret to be registered as professional.

That is the crux of the matter, setting up a micro I know all about, I have 3!  And this discussion does not affect me as one of mine is already a full blown cotisation paying type.  The discussion is aimed at thsoe people who in light of the health changes would benefit from having their small sinde line set up as a full business and can then pay into a health scheme.

Amanda

[zeltus]

It's all very confusing isn't it?

We have been here five years now, having taken over an exisitng gite complex already set up as a micro-enterprise. We did all the right things (I think) including registering at Perigueux's CPAM office and arrnging (and then paying) our Cotisations thru' URRSAF (who they?) once our 2 year E106 ran out.

It is our main source of income, we pay tax professionelle to prove it.

As far as I can see, we fit into both the 5 year residency qualification and the "we are not inactif" category. But nonetheless, we have now received a letter stating that from the end of March next year, it's "so long and thanks for all the fish". Fortunately, both of us are in good health but thats beside the point - I dunno why we were sent this letter altho' I suspect it might be something that's happened to us before from other bureaucracies here in France - "Let's send it to everyone and only deal with those who reply in a high-pitched scream"

I s'pose we can struggle to deal with it at the local office and also try and Anglotelephone on 0820 904212 - but it would be really nice to have the equivalent of a local MP to help fight our corner....

Bill & Jan

[Panda]

Hmm, I was told recently by CPAM that I was still registered with them which is odd as I've been paying to RSI as a self employed person for 3 years.  I assumed (how stupid) that once you register as 'actif' and therefore not using your E106 anymore and changing from paying CPAM to RSI they would talk, I still have the same NI equiv number.   But no, they thought I was affiliated to both and still would if I hadn;t moved no doubt!  So I might get a letter too

[londoneye]

I genuinely do not see how it can be possible for the French government to differentiate between EU non-French nationals and French nationals who are carrying out the same activity.   It must be the case that there are a number of French nationals who run a Chambre d'hote or gite business.   If the business is registered, has a siret number and cotisations are paid, it's inconceivable that the government can differentiate between such a business run by French people and one run by English people.   Surely the letter receieved by Zeltus must be an error ?   Has no-one else received such a letter in a similar situation?

I have to say I don't run such a business myself, so perhaps I am missing something here, but this seems to be a very serious development if its not an error ?

[Glyn]

zeltus,

Do you have a siret number. If you do, I cannot see how you cannot be elligible for health care, as long as you pay the ncessary cotisations.

I am sure that the Chambre of Commerce would help you. As far as I am aware, and depending on the size of business, you would register as an Enterprise Individuelle. You would then have to pay the following cotisations:-

• CSG
• CRDS
• cotisations d'allocations familiales
• Retirement
• Health

I am sure there is a way forward to you if you can get the business fully registered,

Glyn

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="Glyn"]

zeltus,

Do you have a siret number. If you do, I cannot see how you cannot be elligible for health care, as long as you pay the ncessary cotisations.

I am sure that the Chambre of Commerce would help you. As far as I am aware, and depending on the size of business, you would register as an Enterprise Individuelle. You would then have to pay the following cotisations:-

• CSG
• CRDS
• cotisations d'allocations familiales
• Retirement
• Health

I am sure there is a way forward to you if you can get the business fully registered,

Glyn

[/quote]

I don't run any businesses so have no specific knowledge.  However, I thought a Siret Number was for a business rather than a person.  Thus, having a Siret number for your business would not give any rights to health cover in itself.  I would have thought that, when the business employs somebody then it pays cotisations for that person and it is those cotisations that give the rights to health care.  I would expect that there are constraints about levels of employment - e.g. being employed for 5 mins per month will probably not be adequate for achieving full rights and that there are bound to be minimum working hours and of course there are minimum wages, etc.

Just my thoughts and not based on knowledge or experience.

Ian

[Glyn]

Ian,

A siret is also issued if you are self employed (Enterprise Individuelle). When we went to the Chamber Of Commerce they took all our details and then forwarded them onto the various departments that get involved:-

• Greffe for registration
• INSEE to issue siret
• Tax office
• RAM - This was the caisse we selected for health cover
• URSSAF for CSG, CRDS
• RSI for retirement fund.

Some of these funds have minimum cotisations that have to be paid regardless of turnover whilst others are purely based on a percentage of turnover. In all the literature I have read I have not seen anything relating to minimum hours that must be worked for self employed people. In fact as anyone who is self employed will tell you the time actually spent 'at the coal face' is often just a small part of the total time spent in running the business, so for those with genuine gite/chambre d'hote business I would not see this as being a problem.

This is just based on my experience only and as always I would recommend taking some sort of professional advice.

Regards,

Glyn

 

[zeltus]

Oh yes, we've got a Siret number and have been paying Cotisations for the 5 years we've been here, having taken over and continued to run a  registered micro-emterprise.

Whilst we might get into the system under the propsed 5 year exemption (not that the french have declared this as of  yet)  we think it's important to NOT be considered inactive. After all, if for instance, we sell the business, it would be a mighty big help to be able to pass on all the benefits to the new owner.

And anyway, it all smacks of governmental incompetence and bias - and for that alone I want to start treading on toes.

I do know someone who works at the Chambre d'Commerce in Perigueux, I will see if I can get him to help as "unbiased" translator

Bill

[Glyn]

Bill,

It seems strange that you are affiliated to CPAM for your health care as I would have thought that if you are covered under your business registration you would have been affiliated via someone like RSI. However it may be my lack of understanding of the system.

Please keep us posted as I am sure there are a lot of people who would like to go down the gite/chambre d'hote route.

Glyn

[BJSLIV]

I suppose the key thing is whether you have been paying 8% of your income as an inactif, or the more typical 30 or 40% as that an actif would pay.

[Glyn]

BJSLIV,

Whilst an 'actif' may pay 30-40% in total cotisations this will be for a lot more benefits than just healthcare. (retirement, invalidity etc). So you are not comparing like for like as an inactif would also be paying social cotisations on their income on top of the 8% for health. In fact self employed contributions for the healthcare element only are around 7.2%. Less than an inactif would pay.

Glyn

[Will]

Not sure where the 7.2% comes from Glyn. When I was self-employed in France I paid a lot more than that to my health caisse. In fact from my 2005 paperwork it looks like just over 12%. Bear in mind too that this is taken on the entire taxable income, whereas the inactifs' 8% is on a sum above a certain threshold, I think about 7000€, so the actual percentage will be rather less than 8%. The 'social cotisations... on top of the 8%' I presume is CRS/CRDS/PS, which everybody pays (though those on overseas pensions are let off some of these). Also, I think I am right in saying that an inactif's contribution is paid to URSSAF, so I am far from certain that CPAM received the whole lot. As self-employed we have to pay URSSAF for various other things as well as paying our health and retirement caisses direct - hence BJSLIV's figure of 30-40% (or even more sometimes). An employee's health contribution is, I believe, about 7% (though I probably have that wrong) but bear in mind that the employer pays a far higher rate.

But I think the point is that if you have been paying full cotisations - to health and retirement caisses as well as URSSAF - rather than just the 8% healthcare contribution - you must surely be considered 'actif' as far as the French system is concerned. Whereas is you have been running temporary furnished lets (which is how gites and B&Bs are usually considered in the system) but paying the 8%, then it is a grey area but I don't see how under that scenario you would be counted as equivalent to somebody who had made full contributions as a business.

[BJSLIV]

The point I was quickly trying to make was that if you are only paying 8%,  then you are only paying as an inactif, to be an actif you must be paying at the 40% level, because you must be paying all the other bits and pieces.

[Helen]

According to Mamicroenterprise   Les taux des cotisations des travailleurs non salariés sont les suivant :

• allocations familiales 5,40%
• CSG + CRDS 8,00%
• formation professionnelle 0,15%
• maladie maternité 6,50%
• indemnistés journalières 0,50%
• retraite de base 16,45%
• retraite complémentaire 6,50%
• invalidité 1,40%
• décès 0,10%

TOTAL 45,00%