CMU

[dp]

I am having difficulties obtaining my E106.

Can anyone tell me please is the 8% CMU contribution from nett or gross income ?

Thanks

[Battypuss]

2% is THAT important to you? If you live in France, scrap the english rubbish and get legal? Oh, it's only us who have paid.................................and still get da** all. Good luck.

[Miki]

[quote]2% is THAT important to you? If you live in France, scrap the english rubbish and get legal? Oh, it's only us who have paid.................................and still get da** all. Good luck.[/quote]

Sorry but what does that mean Battypuss ?

To the original poster.

E106 not available and you want to follow the CMU route, why worry what it is ? a meeting at your local CPAM office will set you on the way, then you will be told all you need from there.

Whatever it is, you will have something like 6000€ plus as your allowance then 8% of income from after that figure will be payable quarterly. A search may find it for you but as with a lot of things on this forum so far, it probably won't work !

Can somebody tell me, why are more and more people taking the CMU route to health cover these days? I know some are early retired but if one is pretty wealthy and on a nice income, won't it be expensive ? Or is it the only route now days ? I am a little confused. Once, it was that we all had to work and be given a choice of "obligatoires" to join and a choice of "complementaires" or if one wanted to come to France on early retirement, one had to have private health cover.

Now even the well off can go on the CMU, which was I thought, soley intended to be a safety net for the poorer French (immigrants) to be covered for health cover.

 

[dp]

What was the reply all about Battypuss ? Its a bit early for so much wine!!! (or maybe not) 

I am a new poster to this forum and have just moved to France. Due to an oversight on one of my qualifying years I am not eligible for an E106. I have taken early retirement and as far as I was aware the CMU was the only avenue open to me to enter the French health system. My question was perfectly simple I thought and only needed a one word answer - gross or nett.

I was asked 'why worry' - its not a matter of worrying its called planning.

I had hoped that this forum might be the route to obtaining this type of information.

[LesLauriers]

In simple terms health cover is charged at 8% of your Revenue Fiscal de Reference (RFR) after deducting an allowance of 6849€. RFR is your earned income less 10% then less 20% plus unearned income or any other income.

Remember that most things which are tax free in the UK are taxable here and included as income, Isas peps etc.

If you have not completed a French inome tax return they will ask to see your payslips for the previous year and any bank statements. In my experience they are more demanding of documentation than the income tax people.

If you are completely on the breadline it is free of charge, otherwise you pay the 8% or start working in France either self employed or for an employer.

[Boiling a frog]

When I applied to CPAM I had not completed a french tax return so they told me to give them my Net income I do not have a clue if that was the correct advice or not.In the second year I did complete a french tax return thereby getting a revenu fiscal de reference(its how much you are meant to pay tax on) and the calculation of the 8% was based on this figure less an allowance (around 6000 euros) 

[Miki]

If you are completely on the breadline it is free of charge, otherwise you pay the 8% or start working in France either self employed or for an employer.

Les Lauriers,

If someone British came here to live and was on the breadline and not working at all, no declared income or very little, so say, how would CPAM see this case in the second year when a tax return should (or should it?) be declared to stay on the system ? Bit far fetched maybe but this was all impossible a few years back and I am wondering how the Brits will be viewed if this trend continues.

 

[LesLauriers]

Miki,

In the days of the carte (or titre) de sejour you had to prove that you could support yourself financially, since its demise you no longer have to and can claim free cover from day one.

I have met a number of expats who tell me that they have come to France to enjoy the benefits of life here including the health, education etc, but that they have no intention of paying taxes or contributing here. In the same breath they explain about the new 3 litre off roader they have just purchased and how many buildings they have on their gite complex.

Clearly It is each individuals right to minimise their exposure to taxation through sensible financial planning but often the obvious life style does not match the suggested declared income.

Will resentment build up? possibly. I suspect that eventually the number of tax investigations that involve expats will increase as this could be a good potential earner for the government.

[dp]

Thank you Leslauriers - a clear and simple answer.

I have no intention of avoiding any taxation of whatever type but as you so rightly say it is prudent to carry out a little financial planning.

 

 

 

[Miki]

[quote]Miki, In the days of the carte (or titre) de sejour you had to prove that you could support yourself financially, since its demise you no longer have to and can claim free cover from day one. I have...[/quote]

Thanks Les Lauriers,

That was how I was viewing the situation.

I remember that to gain our C de Sèjour we bought a "run down business" and by joining the Ch de Com, we were (if my memory serves me right) exempt from the requirement of showing an annual wealth. The business was seen as sufficient to allow us to stay and gain a C de Sèjour for just one year initially. The following year when applying, we were granted a 5 year card. All the time one was thinking how much the annual cotisations were going to cost (no different now of course for all the legal traders, businesses in France).

A few Brits we knew who went under, due to high costs and perhaps insufficient funds initially, were lucky enough to be able to recieve RMI. Many a time I would see one of them cleaning the local streets or looking after the parc municipal, now it seems as you say, that anyone can come from the UK, be it as rich as they like but if they do not qualify for an E106 and not much of a salary to declare from the previous year, it can well mean free health cover.

Certainly one often hear "you want to take the CMU route".  The semi retired Brits especially, have found a nice niche, when let's be honest this law was meant to help the poor who up until a few years ago, often had no health cover due to insufficient funds.

I think a serious error has been made and with the balck hole in the French health service getting deeper in debt, the French will surely close the few loopholes that exist. I really think we will see changes in the next few years with the CMU. Remember it is a newish "thing" and has yet to bed in, so to speak and when they take a deep look, I am sure immigrants will have new regulations to comply with getting the CMU.

 

 

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Miki,you have touched on a subject which is a little risque on a forum which is for the most part on france,but anyone from the now 25 countries in the EU or what ever it is called now can do the same,yeah there are a few countries that are delaying but they will have to come in line within the next few years.Then what will happen,every person in the EU will have the the same right to health cover etc in what ever country they are in,and then there is the the turkish entry into the EU and all that comes with it,how many countries are net payers to the EU,3 I think,if the UK withdraw what would happen then? would the  roads still be built in the former eastern block countries,a little off subject but the reason anyone can claim cmu in france is due to the EU,non UKIP voter.

[Miki]

[quote]Miki,you have touched on a subject which is a little risque on a forum which is for the most part on france,but anyone from the now 25 countries in the EU or what ever it is called now can do the same...[/quote]

Sorry outcast, you may, as you repeatedly say, live here but the CMU was not an EU ruling but a French one,thought of by the French for the poorer society here in France.

They can change the rules at will, it has little to do with Europe.

Not risque at all, a few members on here are in agreement that the CMU is not being utilised as was intended originally. It has also helped many just over the limit but was certainly not designed to be used by people coming over the borders and grabbing free health from an already sorry state of affairs.

Turkey has a long, long road to go before entry is theirs......... It is my thought that the recipricol health through the new E111 card is designed more for holiday insurance as it stands at the moment, than for people to move about for best hospital care.

 

[Iceni]

Miki, I hate to say this but I think Outcast is right in a way. Any French person can go to the UK (or anyone from any EEC country) - has a right to go to the UK and after 3 months will get into the health system - paid for I think by the reciprocal arangement which should pay for the CMU users from the UK.

We are currently trying to get John his cv as he has fallen through the gaps. He falls out of the system in January BUT I am paying for him via the business, they just forgot that.

There are only two lots of people to fear in this world, the tax man and the VAT man - and whichever country you are in you have to pay - which was the original question, they are willing to pay, just want to know how much.

[LaBucherie]

My understanding is that, if you are a retired resident in France, you are obliged to join CMU if you do not have an E121 or E106. It is not a matter of choosing to be a burden on the French! An E106 will only cover you for a limited period. If you are working, you enter the system by a different route. You can have top-up medical cover but are not allowed to have full, private cover and be outside the system.

Regards

David

[dp]

Absolutely Labucherie, that is my understanding.

I made the original posting as I thought that this was the correct route to entering the French health system. If I am wrong please would someone let me know.

Also, I may be misunderstanding here, but if I am to pay 8% of my taxable income how am I a burden on the French tax system? 

 

 

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]Miki, I hate to say this but I think Outcast is right in a way. Any French person can go to the UK (or anyone from any EEC country) - has a right to go to the UK and after 3 months will get into the h...[/quote]

Have a look at this

http://www.dh.gov.uk/PolicyAndGuidance/International/OverseasVisitors/fs/en

Explains who is entitles to benifit from health care treatment in the UK.It really has nothing to do with reciprical arrangements If you reside in the UK legally you are entitled to free medical treatment whether you have paid into the system or not If you are in France then unless you are below a certain income level you are not entitled to treatment and it is not totally free and you have to contribute

Maybe the UK is a better place to live after all

[Miki]

My concerns about the CMU, is not whether it is the route to take for semi-retired (La Boucherie, the retired do not take this route as they will be entitled to an E 121 or should be, or perhaps you meant retired in the sense of stopped working ?) but the reasons why many take this route.

As has been stated already , the amount some are stating on their tax forms as their global income takes your breath away. My belief is that when the Impots and CMU find that the CMU is gaining much support from immigrants, that is to say, the amount of ex pat workers are dropping but the CMU is growing in relation to under age retirees.

Many Brits on the CMU, appear to be living on the breadline or far below the way I hear of some returns being given to the Impots, then a detailed investigation will surely follow. Read Les Lauriers post to see just how many ex pats are viewing the CMU. It is currently used by B&B, gite owners and I am not sure which other "workers" are allowed to use the system, if any. Remember though, some regions now will not allow these categories to not sunscribe at the C de Commerce, so those persons will have to pay cotisations in the normal way.

 As I said, this is a relatively new system, which at the same time saw the private health companies disallowed from giving obligatory health cover, in place of the French system for foreign residents in France (this did not affect the Top Up still being available from private companies). There will be a bedding in time and after that my feelings (and others) is that it will be given a serious overhaul. As I said, it is common knowledge the health system here is in dire financial straits and I see the CMU as one of the first ports of call to see where money can be saved.

It has (or is) becoming quite infamous as the way to get extremely cheap health cover for British immigrants, (OK, obviously not all) which is fair enough I guess, if the person does only have that choice but too many will (do) see that as a handy way of getting their needed health cover and then can work on the black. What better way to come to France, get health cover and then find some work, knowing they will be a nice few euros to the better. It is the amount being declared by many on the system that will finally, to my mind, will also assist in getting the alarm bells ringing.

Dp, it is not necessarily the correct route to take, it is a system that entitled the less off to be able to gain health cover, though, through equality, then made it available for anyone resident in France to use. For those who come here to work, it is not the correct route to take at all.

Di it is not a reciprocol, in so much it is not a like for like, as BAF said, it is free in the UK.

Gripe over ! As I think you will now see, my concern is more for the abuse of the CMU and it's original set up than for genuine users.

 

[BJSLIV]

Micky

I seem to remember that Teamed Up and / or Val2 expressed their concerns at this abuse of the system a few months ago.

What amazes me is that it is often "Daily Mail" readers who quickly give" Scroungers etc" as one of their motivations for leaving the UK, who are latching on to this ruse.

No doubt they would see hiding their true wealth, pension income etc, back in the UK as an expression of entrepreneurial spirit, rather than scrounging.

I too believe/ hope that it won’t be long before the French bureaucracy focuses on this loophole.

It seems particularly unfair when there are already many cut-backs in benefits to French citizens.

[zeb]

I think it would be pretty difficult to hide any pensions or income even in UK bank accounts unless you're an excellent liar. The forms for claiming CMU are horrendous, as someone said, they are much worse than tax forms and want details of every (global) penny received, houses sold and all bank details and statements for the last two years at least.

When I was ill during this summer a french friend misunderstood my health entitlement and arranged for a claim form from the CMU to be sent to us. We pay our cotisations to MSA (as well as a top up to a mutuelle) and were able to claim for all the treatment, operation and post op care etc from them.

After seeing the form, I think I would have to be absolutely desperate (i.e.starving) to find and send the information requested for the CMU. I really don't think that many ex-pats could be going down this route.

helen

 

[LesLauriers]

I think that there is some confusion over the expression CMU (Couverture Maladie Universelle), then again it may be me that is confused!

As I understand it every resident of France has to join the French health system and this is done through your employment / business, or if you are not in employment, through CPAM.

The basic cover is called (as I understand it) CMU, that is to say cover for around 70% of the charge.

You pay 8% of your worldwide income after allowances, over 6721€ to obtain the cover.

If you have declared a very low income then you do not pay, without wishing to put words in Miki's mouth I believe that when he refers to "CMU" then this is what he is talking about.

Please correct me if I have this wrong!

As Helen16 says CPAM are more demanding than the revenue! I am in the process of signing up to pay for my cover and boy is it fun!

At the first meeting having shown my French tax return I was asked to produce a further number of documents as "the 8% is deducted from capital", which it is not. We also had an interesting discussion where I was told that I had not declared bank interest on my tax return - trust me I did and demonstrated but to no avail.

"No it's not, yes it is", went on for some time so I asked to see the document which shows the calculation. Ah we do not do that it is done by URSAFF. Off upstairs to see URSAFF - no we do not calculate it they do that downstairs!

Ok, give in, go home and photocopy some 38 documents as requested! Back to CPAM, hand in my completed form and a copy of my tax return to a different person, do you require anything else - "no that is all".

Three days later I receive everything back in the post with a request for a letter from Newcastle stating that my E106 has expired.

All sent off (minus the other 37 documents originally asked for)and I await the next installment. Given the original idividual's misunderstanding of the calculation and insistance that the tax return was incomplete I have decided to produce documents only when absolutely necessary.

By the way I did make it clear that I wanted to pay! Around 2000€ for 2005 and close to 4000€ for 2006 by my calculations.

[Miki]

Sorry Helen, I have to disagree, having seen that the forms are self answered (as many are here and trust is given to the applicant) to tell "fibs" is often the easiest thing in the world to do and it most certainly does happen. How many persons?  well I know of quite a few and some of them certainly known to be doing some work, so multiply that by the hundreds of other areas and..... do you dob them in ?

Maybe one should do but sadly or perhaps not, not really in my nature and lean more towards "what goes around" etc.

LesLauriers, you are honest and you have gone the correct route and yes, being France it can be sometimes pretty difficult. I am surprised that URSSAF were involved so quickly, but different areas acting somewhat differentlyagain. Although the money is paid to them, I always believed that they were involved later when they had all the paperwork but I know in some areas that they are often in the same building (not here) so I guess it was simpler to get on and do what you had to do, whilst there. You have said yourself, how can some of them honestly be living on their declared income, it makes it very suspicious and all things are taken from the yearly return to the Impots, or at least used to confirm that years declaraton.

Yes I do see CMU in the way you believe.

As Peter Owen often say's, one can sometimes say too much ! but with the CMU, it can be far better financially (not approved !) to be as economical with the truth as possible and this is what I truly believe is happening with a portion of the British applications. None here I'm sure !

[dp]

I wonder if someone would answer a simple question :

Is the CMU the correct and only path for someone taking early retirement without the benefit of an E106 ?

 

 

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Miki,ask yourself why some UK expats living in france feel the need to tell a few "fibs" in order to get the best deal when it comes to paying for any sort of health cover,when as Di I think it was says the french and any EU national can obtain free health care in the UK after only a short while.Most of us living in france and are used to the UK NHS system find it hard to come to terms with having to pay at the point of delivery for health care,ie when I took my daughter to see the doc,at the end of the consultation he ask me for 20 euro,s,never happened like that in the UK,so ok I can pay it and after cpam gave back their bit it did not add up to that much.Yes we are in france but if the french can get free health care in the UK why can not the people from the UK who have paid for the NHS in the UK get free health care here in france where I live,think about that and then you may understand why some people fill in the paper work the way they do.

[Miki]

[quote]I wonder if someone would answer a simple question : Is the CMU the correct and only path for someone taking early retirement without the benefit of an E106 ?[/quote]

If you do not intend to work and be a resident in France and require French health cover, then yes, sorry if you misunderstood that. If you require fuller cover to rembourse you from 60-70% to 100% cover, you will need to take out a complementaire (mutuelle) assurance to pay you the remaining sum. A little more to it than that but that is the crux of the matter.

 

 

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]I wonder if someone would answer a simple question : Is the CMU the correct and only path for someone taking early retirement without the benefit of an E106 ?[/quote]

Yes