Same as Spain?

[jenz55]

After watching a TV programme on healthcare probs in Spain, we were wondering if France is the same.  The programme highlighed that hospital aftercare was not covered, and that E111 is only valid for 2 years, it was suggested that it is wise to keep a UK address in case of health problems.......is this a wise thing to do? 

[Beryl]

I would think that maintaining an empty house in the UK would be far costlier than joining the French system.  Also it's a bit hard to make a dash back to the UK for treatment if you get hit by a bus in France.[:D]

[Patf]

I watched this programme, not very carefully I must admit, and got different info. ie aftercare rarely available, E106 for 2 years, some people wished they'd kept a UK address, but not a recommended solution. In France, if you are officially part of the system the aftercareis good. ( In my experience.) See another recent thread in the Postbag for risks of trying to keep a foot in both camps . Pat.

[cooperlola]

This has been discussed ad infinitum on other parts of the forum.  I can't think of any reason not to subscribe to the French system when you live here.  Not doing so is fraught with problems - not least the legal ones.

[andyh4]

I am constantly amazed by the pathetic naivity of many ex-pat Brits, who seem to believe that owning a British passport means they do not have to:

Register with their national health system

reregister their car in the country of their chosen abode

stop at stop signs

make a tax declaration

pay their taxes in the country they now adopt as their "home"

regsiter to legally work

 

etc etc ad infinitum

[Sunday Driver]

In Spain, hospital aftercare is traditionally left to the family, whereas in France, it is an important element of the healthcare system.

The programme you refer to highlighted the problems faced by expats who had either failed to make their own health insurance arrangements after their temporary E106 cover had expired, or who were avoiding paying tax and social security contributions and relying on their UK E111/EHIC to obtain free treatment.  In France, registration for universal state health cover is compulsory after three months residence.  Once you are resident abroad, the UK E111/EHIC is no longer valid.

 

[chessfou]

[quote]Once you are resident abroad, the UK E111/EHIC is no longer valid.[/quote]

No. My old UK EHIC card is no longer valid but my new UK EHIC card is valid (except, obviously, for France) and will remain valid until my E106 expires. At least, that's what Newcastle say.

My new EHIC card was issued specifically to match the period of the E106. During this period, the responsibility for basic cover rests with the UK (E106 for France & EHIC for elsewhere).

Once the E106 runs out, my "new" UK EHIC will need to be replaced by a French EHIC.

[NB. For anyone confused about dates, the important one is that of the E106. For example, the expiry date on my new UK EHIC is in Sept. 2008 but it actually expires in January 2008 - dictated by the E106 expiry date.]

[Sunday Driver]

The UK EHIC is only available to people who are ordinarily resident in the UK and wishing to cover emergency healthcare costs that arise in other EU countries (ie outside the UK).  That was a key point which was brought out in the ITV programme and confirmed by the DWP - if you had taken up permanent residence abroad, then it was no longer valid.

The Department of Health website states that EHIC's are available for holders of form E106 who are UK employed or UK self employed and working in another EEA country.  It goes on to say that if you are under UK state pension age and you move to another EEA country or Switzerland to live permanently (but not to work), then you may no longer be entitled to an EHIC, However, you may be able to get health cover from the UK for a limited period on form E106.... etc, etc 

Of course, anyone permanently resident in France and registered for CMU (either through an E-form or under their own cost) and wanting a card to cover them whilst making return visits to the UK should apply for a French one through their local CPAM. 

 

[chessfou]

[quote]Of course, anyone permanently resident in France and registered for CMU

(either through an E-form or under their own cost) and wanting a card

to cover them whilst making return visits to the UK should apply for a

French one through their local CPAM. [/quote]

Not according to DWP (neither for return visits to UK nor, more relevant, visits to other countries), who today confirmed what they had previously told me (see previous post). I also thought it worthwhile double-checking with CPAM - they weren't able to confirm at the time (it was a bit late on a Friday afternoon) but someone will phone me back on Monday/Tuesday and I don't anticipate any surprise (having spent ages and multiple calls establishing all this before we left the UK).

UK EHIC* runs through to date of expiry of E106, thereafter French EHIC required.

It is very important that anyone for whom this might be relevant make their own enquiries direct to the relevant authorities.

*make sure you get a new one issued - tied to your E106 (on the basis of what I was told last year, our original EHICs were, indeed, useless from the time we left the UK).

[Sunday Driver]

The information given by the person you spoke to at the DWP appears to contradict the official published policy. 

The arrangements for heathcover for people living in France and travelling abroad are set out on the French healthcare website.  They state that you should apply to your caisse for a CEAM which "serves as proof you are entitled to health coverage in France".  They even provide an English language version. 

CPAMs have always issued CEAMs to Britons registered here, with or without an E form - I've even got got one myself......

 

[KathyC]

This is just a thought so I'm prepared to be shot down! If you're covered by an E106 or an E121 then the UK government pays a sum of money to the French health service to cover your care. Might it then be true that should you need health cover in a foreign country (not France or UK) that the UK government reimburses that country by way of the UK EHIC card? Would this explain the difference between the two opinions given?

[cooperlola]

Equally, if both countries (France and UK) are prepared to issue you an EHIC card or equivelant, perhaps you should hang onto/apply for both just for safety's sake?!

[Teamedup]

I also believe that the wrong information has been given by the DWP concerning the EHIC cards. I don't believe that non residents should be using UK EHIC cards.

[chessfou]

KathyC,

that is the underpinning which I believe to be correct.

It is certainly not unknown for DWP to be wrong but since I went through many, many hoops (and spoke to at least six people there about this) prior to our move here (it was important since I still travel a bit) and have subsequently had it confirmed by two more different sets of people plus, in between, they issued us with new EHICs basically to match the E106, then I'm going to believe them ahead of a random TV programme.

Nonetheless, I will be interested to hear what our CPAM have to say about the position when they call back at the beginning of this week.

Teamedup,

If you don't believe DWP then who do you believe (and why?).

SundayDriver,

DWP site states:

When you get forms E106, register the forms by giving it to the

authorities who run the sickness insurance scheme in the country where

you live. If you have family members who cannot be issued with form

E106 in their own right, they may be covered as members of your family

on your own form E106, but this is a matter for the authorities there.

Ask them if they can include your family members when your form E106 is

registered.

If you visit a third EEA country and you need a form E111 for

medical cover (because you did not get one from a UK post office or

from www.dh.gov.uk/travellers before you left the UK), get one by writing to The Pension Service.

If you begin work again, you will need to pay into a sickness insurance

scheme so that you can get benefits in the country where you are

living.

[ http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/sa29/medical_06.asp ]

So, it is possible that this is another weird bit (like the Titre de Séjour) that applies to us ("retired" but under retirement age - a.k.a. "economically inactive") but few (if any) others.

[Teamedup]

Sorry Chessfou, but if you go to the terms and conditions on the application it states that only UK residents can apply for an EHIC and that if anyone who has one remains abroad to live or work, then they have to hand it in and contact the appropriate authorities, or something along those lines.

Truth is that if we are living outside the UK for three months, then the whole thing changes.

It won't be the first time it has happened but I reckon that the person was misinformed by the DWP. They are usually pretty good, but these things happen.

 

 

 

[chessfou]

Teamedup,

Why don't you follow the link I gave to the DWP website and read for yourself the context to the bit I quoted (and which a grand total of 8 - eight* - people at DWP have told me over the period 2005-2007).

Remember, this is for someone in the category NOT WORKING but living in France and BELOW NORMAL RETIREMENT AGE.

The sequence is clear enough:

(1) Get E106 form and use this to get registered with CPAM and get your Carte Vitale;

(2) No UK EHIC will cover you for treatment in France;

(3) If you visit a third country, you need E111/EHIC (UK)**;

(4) "If you begin working again" (ditto end of E106 and consequent expiry of matched UK EHIC), then it is necessary to get benefits (by whatever means appropriate) in the country where you are living (i.e. CEAM from France).

*Strictly speaking, it's 7 at DWP and 1 in the department that actually issues EHICs.

**NB our old UK EHIC cards are not valid for anything, anywhere since the date of our emigration (even though they show a validity date through to 2011 - as your reading of some of the Ts&Cs confirmed), it is only our new UK EHIC cards (issued after our E106) that are valid.

[Teamedup]

We will be in exactly the same situation, but going back the other way. I have been looking into this, especially as we are going to be paying full contributions into the french system when we leave, unavoidable, yet, ALL our french rights will be cancelled upon the issue of our E form.

 

I don't understand this at all. There is something screwed here and I will look into it.

[Sunday Driver]

[url=http://www.dh.gov.uk/PolicyAndGuidance/HealthAdviceForTravellers/GettingTreatmentAroundTheWorld/EEAAndSwitzerland/EEAAndSwitzerlandArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4114793&chk=KCVYDZ]Department of Health Policy & Guidance[/url]

Who is eligible for an EHIC?

People who are ordinarily resident in the UK are entitled to a UK-issued EHIC. It is not valid for people who are going to live abroad.

Registration under the French healthcare system is compulsory after three months residence, and from this point on, the French are responsible for all healthcare matters. The E106 is the introductory mechanism which confirms that the UK will pay a time limited annual fixed contribution towards the French costs under the reciprocal agreement. 

The overall cost of treatment is borne by the French system regardless of whether it exceeds the value of the UK contribution or where is is obtained.  To this extent, the CPAM will issue a CEAM to registered individuals to cover their foreign travel - this is what actually happens at the moment.

 

 

[Ron Avery]

Chessfou, perhaps the answer to the apparent  conflict between your quotes from the DWP and TU and SD's opinions and quotes is that your references which are certainly on the DWP website are perhaps woefully out of date?

The page you are quoting from is dated 2004 and makes reference to the E 111 form and says "During 2005 the UK will replace E111s with a plastic European Health Insurance Card. Details of how to apply for it will be publicised prior to introduction of the card". 

 The link on that page to get a E 111 now says that "The E111 form is no longer valid. You will need a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to receive necessary healthcare during a visit to an European Economic Area (EEA)"

Going on to applying for a EHIC on line via that page, it states "If you are a UK resident you are entitled  blah blah when visiting another EU country"   You can apply on line for a UK issued EHIC but in that application it says that you must "agree that all the persons to be specified on this application are UK residents.,"

UK resident is described as "normally living at a UK address".

So according to that lot , if you now live in France you are clearly ineligiible to apply for a UK issued EHIC card as TU and SD have said. 

Where it can get confusing when talking to the DWP is apart from their information being woefully out of date,  the E106 is also issued to people who work in the EU but continue to pay UK NI, they would have a UK base though and be eligible for a UK issued EHIC for travelling to a different EU country.

So in summary what you are quoting from is obviously out of date and refers to a form and a process no longer in place. When you talk to the DWP in Newcastle again, perhaps you could ask them to update their website please[Www]

[Boiling a frog]

Last year I was covered in France using the E106.I phoned CPAM to ask for a european health card as I was going on holiday to Spain

Their reply ,after I quoted my social security no. was

You are issued with the EHIC by the UK as at the moment you are covered by E106 and all medical charges incured are rembursed by the UK

I then phoned Newcastle explained situation and they said no problem CPAM France are correct and issued me with a EHIC

This year I am no longer on E106 but pay into French system and currently in Spain with my EHIC issued by CPAM.

[KathyC]

Well, perhaps my suggestion wasn't that daft after all.

[Teamedup]

I'm going to phone my CPAM soon and see what their reaction will be about us paying into the french system, but being non residents and definitely having no rights in France. They should judging by this, be saying that they will happily issue us with EHIC's.......... I'm pretty sure I have asked this question already and they have said they don't, but we'll see.

[Ron Avery]

TU wrote: "I'm going to phone my CPAM soon and see what their reaction will be about us paying into the french system, but being non residents"

TU. Surely if you phone your CPAM and ask them what you are proposing they will not understand what you are on about.  How can you pay (or why should you pay into the French system) without being resident?  What is being discussed here is exactly the opposite to that!!   The issue is when you ARE resident in France but NOT paying into the French system, by virtue of being covered by an E 106 who issues your EHIC , isn't it?.

It would appear that despite all the DWP website says or more to the point,  does not say, that whilst you are under the cover of an E106 that you are still treated as if you were a UK resident and will be issued with a EHIC by the UK but you obviously cannot apply on line for it. After your E 106 expires you are 100% under the French system and therefore the French will issue your EHIC.

[cooperlola]

Is it just me or is everybody else's head spinning from this thread?  I am just glad that my E106 has now expired and I am a 100% fully subscribed and paid up member of the French system.  Must be a nightmare for anybody who wants the real answer to this question if they are trying to keep up![:-))]

Any chance, mods, that we could have an FAQ on this subject, as it's important?  Or maybe there is one and I missed it?

[KathyC]

Sorry to complicate the situation even more but does anybody have any thoughts regarding which country's EHIC when someone's over retirement age and funded with the E121? I'm sure that there must be people over retirement age who've been issued with a French EHIC which should answer the question.