Have we a choice?

[DorothyJ]

We bought our house here in 2003 but decided in October this year that we would move permanently in Jan 2009. So back in England in November we arranged with an estate agent to put our house in England up for rental, started clearing out 40 years of rubbish and my husband went off for his annual outpatients checkup for his 'sticky valve'. We were distressed to learn that the problem has become much worse quite rapidly and he needs a further echogram at the beginning of Dec to see if he will have to have a valve replacement which would be a further wait of 3 months for the operation.

As it has taken us 2 years to finally decide to move to France we dont want now to put it off but we are unsure of our position. My husband is 64 and I am 65 so I presume health cover is as the forum has advised and we shall just need to take out top-up insurance but can my husband have this operation in France or must he wait for it to be done in England?

[Will]

The principle behind reciprocal European health agreements is to avoid 'health tourism', i.e. visiting a country for the sole reason of taking advantage of its health system. That is different from emergency (or even normal routine) treatment being needed while you are visiting, and also different from arrangements where one country's health system agrees, beforehand, to fund treatment in another country.

So in your case timing is important. If you are resident in France and affiliated to the health system when it is decided that the operation is needed there should be no argument. However, if you come to France knowing that you need this operation and expecting it to be done there, while having lost the right to have it done under the NHS through giving up your British residence, you could (though not necessarily) find yourselves caught between two stools. I think it could prove particularly difficult as far as your top-up insurance is concerned.

It may not be what you want to hear, and somebody might have alternative suggestions.

[Patf]

It's a matter of timing, and taking advice on the urgency of having the operation. I think your husband should go along with the opinion of the UK cardiologist after the echogram.

If he decides to wait and have the op. in France, have you got your E121s lined up? The procedure would be to register your E121s at your CPAM, register with a doctor, and have him write to recommend the heart condition should be covered 100%, being an ALD. Then you doctor would refer him to a cardialogue, who would arrange for the op. (or not). All this would take several weeks, if not months.

I don't think you can assume the french surgeon would do the op. on the recommendation of your UK specialist, but I might be wrong.

I had a cardiac intervention here (stents) and the care was very good. But in my case it was done as an emergency.

[Will]

A further thought - and we are getting into slightly convoluted logic here. Entitlement to NHS treatment is based on the concept of being 'ordinarily resident' in UK, which means you have to have lived there for a period (6 months I think), or to be working and paying tax and NI there. Just as it takes time, or postive action, to gain 'ordinary resident' status, it also takes time to lose it. So you may still be able to use NHS facilities for a while (possibly 6 months again) after you leave. Having an address in France rather than UK may make things difficult, but it should be possible to overcome that. Being retired should make things simpler from the NI point of view. Again, it's all down to timing.

[NormanH]

Have it done in the UK.

That's where you have contributed .

[Sunday Driver]

Making your usual snide comments doesn't really help the situation here......[8-)]

 

[NormanH]

I am simply advising the OP to have the operation done in the UK, and then come over. There is no urgent  need to move to France if they are not Health tourists

"As it has taken us 2 years to finally decide to move to France we dont want now to put it off" doesn't sound like a very good reason to move straightaway.

[Sunday Driver]

Come off it, Norman - that's not what you said.   Otherwise why did you make the unnecessary comment about 'that's where you have contributed'?

 

[NormanH]

But it's true..they have contributed in the UK they know the system and they speak the language.

Why would anyone want to take a leap in the dark for something as important?

[KathyC]

[quote user="NormanH"]But it's true..they have contributed in the UK they know the system and they speak the language.
Why would anyone want to take a leap in the dark for something as important?
[/quote]

 

That's the voice of someone who hasn't been in an NHS hospital recently!

[NormanH]

But an NHS hospital is what people in the UK have paid for.

Why do people think they should have the right to be treated in a system where people have contributed much more over many  years, when they themselves have spent all their working life paying cheaply.

It's as if someone wants to use a Luncheon voucher to pay for a meal in a good restaurant.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="NormanH"]But an NHS hospital is what people in the UK have paid for.
Why do people think they should have the right to be treated in a system where people have contributed much more over many  years, when they themselves have spent all their working life paying cheaply.
It's as if someone wants to use a Luncheon voucher to pay for a meal in a good restaurant.
[/quote]

An honest response at last.......[8-)]

So all that "simply advising the OP to have the operation done in the UK, and then come over" and "why would anyone want to take a leap in the dark for something as important?" was just wriggling out of it.

I don't know why you bother trying to hide it - your animosity towards E121 holders being able to obtain French health benefits is a matter of record on this forum.

 

 

[Russethouse]

Personally I'd wait and have it done in the UK - after all by now you probably know the cardiologist, and he knows you.

No one has mentioned your language skills, but if you are feeling below par,concerned (the patient) or under stress (you) it lessens the strain if you can communicate in your native language. (Of course that doesn't consider the native language of the medical staff, but you are at least half way there)

[DorothyJ]

I am very grateful for all your advice and have enjoyed most of the comments.

Perhaps I was too brief in my first post as I can see it is very difficult to give advice when there are so many 'ifs'.

We are not residents as up to now we have spent 6 months in England, some time in Sweden with daughter and grandchildren and some time here restoring a very very old house which had been renovated in the '50s. We know this area very well as before buying the house we used to holiday in a campsite 3 miles away and therefore have close french friends here. My french is pretty good, my husband is not too bad and improving. As we have aged mother and sisters in England plus 1 son, another son who works 6 months in America and a daughter in Sweden, everyone has used Dorset as the meeting place. So we dithered... until this year when we decided now was the time to think of what we wanted. If we didn't do it we never would and we would start the paperwork in December ready for our move.

So it came as a bit of a shock to learn my husband might need an op, it had not been mentioned before.

We do not want to have treatment in France because we think it is better - we are not particularly unhappy with what is on offer in England.The first thing our french friends said was "dont stay in England, carry on with the move and have it done over here" The idea that we haven't paid into the French system therefore we are not entitled is just daft. I have no objections to immigrants who come to England and use our health service. Surely we are not so narrow thinking that unless you have put it in you can't get it out - if you get my drift.

So, we wait for Dec 4th and hope for good news.

[NormanH]

"The idea that we haven't paid into the French system therefore we are not entitled is just daft"

Tell that to anybody who lives in most Health care regimes in Europe, and isn't covered by an E form.

When I came over I wasn't entitled to anything for a year until  I had worked and paid enough into the system.

The NHS is based on a criterion of residence, but elsewhere the systems are contribution-based.

So why is what I say "daft"?

[DorothyJ]

So why is what I say "daft"

There is no reason at all it is my own personal take on life. And I cant honestly be bothered to reply I have much more important things on my mind.

[Sunday Driver]

Here we go again..............[8-)]

Dorothy - sorry for this unnecessary disruption at a time of great personal concern when you're seeking constructive advice.

Norman is a disadvantaged individual who lives in a cockroach infested flat in a poor part of town surrounded by gangsters.  He arrived here without being entitled to any assistance or benefits and has spent his life having to pay his way in France.  He despises anyone who has spent their life paying their way in the UK and is now able to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

His preference is that anyone living in France on a UK pension should, in his own words, be subject to a clear out.

 

[DorothyJ]

Oh Sunday Driver thank you so much for that it did make me laugh. I dont often write to the forum but I find it is so rewarding as people are usually so generous with their knowledge and kindness. We have been married for 45 years and our lives seemed to stretch into infinity, nothing like a bit of poor health to make you realize we might not live for ever. Joking apart, its a shame that Norman has such a miserable outlook on life. My mum used to say - you reap what you sow - and he cannot be a happy person. We are of the old school of only buy what you can afford and if someone needs something give it to them if you have it. As a yorkshire born person - you cant tek it with you!!!!!

[NormanH]

[quote user="DorothyJ"]So why is what I say "daft"

There is no reason at all it is my own personal take on life. And I cant honestly be bothered to reply I have much more important things on my mind.[/quote]

That is to say you have no argument, and no facts .in short you are ignorant of how things work in France and in Europe in general..but you want a wave of sympathy for a situation you have got yourself into.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="NormanH"].............................................. .in short you are ignorant of how things work in France and in Europe in general..[/quote]

And you sunshine, are clearly ignorant of the way the health system reciprocal payment scheme works. Suggest you research the facts before spouting any further drivel on this subject.

I'd give you a web link to the legislation but, do you know what, I can't be bothered.....................

[DorothyJ]

Why on earth should you think I want an argument or sympathy? A genuine question, plenty of good advice from members but I haven't got myself into any situation. Good health for my husband is what I want and I'm not sure you want anthing other than to cause upset. That's it no more from you I hope.

[Nickel]

In a couple of weeks you will see your cardiologist with new investigations and at that time he/she will say either that surgery is not necessary at this stage - in which case I would imagine you will continue with your planned move...........

 Or that surgery is now required.

Should it be the latter - then again I would discuss this with the cardiologist with reference to the stress of undertaking the move also bearing in mind you will need to register with a new GP in France ( or do you have one?)  be referred to the specialist in France and undertake a whole new series of tests/ investigations.

Both options are of course possible which is why I suggest the opinion of the medical team may may help in reaching your decision . They may feel, for whatever reason, that it would be better to have the operation in UK - or they may say that there is no medical contra-indication to moving to France.

I don't wish to oversimplify what is going to be a difficult time for you but hopefully just  indicate that some decisions may be made that will narrow your choices and so make the final decision a little easier.

Here's hoping you have good news in December

[Ron Avery]

Dorothy

I would advise that unless both of you speak really good French to have the operation in the UK, get well and then come to France.  I cannot think of anything worse than having a life threatening operation in a foreign country when you would want to know and understand excatly what is happening and being said and not being able to.  A lot of doctors speak some English, nursing staff less so, so if you are unlucky you might find that without good French you will have no idea of what is being asked of your O/H or proposed for him, also you should not assume that just because a treatment is being recommended in the UK that it will be done in France.  Read Will's post, there is a lot of sense in what he says as its not a foregone conclusion that should you move to France the operation would be done here anyway as you could be seen to be a "health tourist".

[cooperlola]

Wise words from Ron (and Nickel, although on a different topic).  I've been in hospital for ten weeks now.  Goodness knows how much worse it would have been if I couldn't talk to the docs, nurses and other patients.  Ops and hospitalisation are tough enough without adding loneliness and isolation to the equation.

[odile]

so absolutely right Coops - and you are in the best (or worst) position to know. Also things are sometimes done quite differently in France, which can add to the confusion. Simple things for instance like giving suppositories for pain control - which is quite normal and natural for French people (and much better for the stomach + faster acting) - but would seem most odd or worse to most Britons. Anyway, the exchange rate is so low at the moment, property values are starting to go down in France, so I would have thought it would make sense to wait a wee while. It's hard to wait, but it really seems to make sense. Bonne chance.