Digital Radio

[NickP]

I have just read that by the year 2015 FM radio in the UK will close down and it will be necessary to have a digital radio set.Well thats OK in the home and in the car in the UK, but there was a storey going round a little while ago that the French Digital system is or will be different to the one used in the UK. Does anybody know if that means that a car radio would be either or, for the UK/France. Or do you think the receivers will be "smart" ?

[Alex H]

[quote user="NickP"]

 by the year 2015 FM radio in the UK will close down and it will be necessary to have a digital radio set.

[/quote]

Who said that?

I know this link is a bit old, but this is why I'm querying your source.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/02/dab_disaster_analysis/

It seems internet radio is the way forward :-)

[NickP]

[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"][quote user="NickP"]

 by the year 2015 FM radio in the UK will close down and it will be necessary to have a digital radio set.

[/quote]

Who said that?

I know this link is a bit old, but this is why I'm querying your source.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/02/dab_disaster_analysis/

It seems internet radio is the way forward :-)

[/quote]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1292531/Motorists-face-300-digital-radio-ministers-press-ahead-FM-switch-off.html

 

[Alex H]

Sorry, that's the Daily Wail and does not count as a proper news source :-)

Try this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/carter_radio_dumb_media/

or this http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dab/fm_switch-off.htm

[NickP]

[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"]Sorry, that's the Daily Wail and does not count as a proper news source :-)

Try this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/carter_radio_dumb_media/

or this http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dab/fm_switch-off.htm

[/quote]

Ok thanks for that; although you must admit it's full of maybe's? and the second link is dated 2007, I won't chuck my old transister radio out yet.[:D]

But, back to my question will the UK and Europe have the same DAB system? as and when it changes?[8-)]

[cooperlola]

I knew Martin had posted on this somewhere:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2123151/ShowPost.aspx

[Martin963]

The story is also in the Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/7876419/The-end-of-FM-radio.html

Indeed,   as I've stated on this forum before,  the French (for that is what primarily interests us) have abandoned DAB (using frequencies around 1500 MHz with poor penetration into buildings) and are going their own way with a variant of the DVB-T standard.   Other countries seem to be leaving DAB and trying DAB+ or even experimenting with DRM,  all different and largely incompatible digital standards,  but all with considerable advantages over the original DAB that is used in Britain.

I still think that when the govt has had the chance to look at this properly (and maybe had the sense to listen to engineers) the date will be put back many many years.   The current problems with British DAB are well rehearsed (poor quality audio,  (partly due to cramming too many stations onto the allocated frequencies and partly sheer technical incompetence with the setting of audio processing),  poorer coverage than with Band II FM  (DAB uses Band III which goes round obstacles less well than Band II,  and therefore needs more relays to achieve good reception on portables),  inefficient (by today's standards) encoding efficiency,  etc).

By the time 2015 arrives it's likely that the DAB sets on sale will work on DRM,  DAB+,  and even the DVB-T variant standards.    But it does mean that existing DAB sets are and will be useless in France and probably in most other countries,   and Britain is left with the difficult decision as to whether to jump to (say) DAB+ and get it over with,  or limp on with our older system until all the current sets are worn out.    Jumping now would cause problems for millions of existing DAB sets,   and the worst of it is that retailers are STILL selling DAB only sets,  thus storing up more trouble.

One has to remember that a threatened change of use of the BBC's Long Wave allocation in 1992 caused the Middle Classes to riot (literally) outside Broadcasting House in London and the BBC gave up their idea of a 24 hour news channel on 198 kHz.    Radio listeners are some of the most conservative and indeed at times most influential people in the country,  and I suspect that 2015 will just be forgotten about.

But as has been so often said,   it would be better if we weren't starting from here......

And I'm still not sure about radio via the internet on the move,   the frequencies likely to be used are even more problematic for stable reception of streaming material,  and all of these mobile internet services require an outrageously (in my view) costly subscription.    As witnessed by the man who listened to Radio 4 via some overpriced internet phone gizmo whilst stuck at a foreign airport during the volcano incident and wracked up a bill of £6000.   Silly ******.

[Martin963]

Thanks coops,   you saved me the bother of hunting my own contribution down!

[NickP]

Thank you  Coops and Martin, [B]

[Martin963]

The story also came up on Radio 4's PM this evening.   They spoke to Michael Buerk and although I haven't been able to check exactly what he said as our internet connection is hopeless at the moment (it always goes even worse than normal in July and August when les vacanciers arrive) the gist of it seemed to be that if the government did confirm the 2015 analogue switch-off they'd have "to row back" before the date arrived.

If anyone wants to listen again it was some time soon after 17.30 BST.

[Gardengirl]

I also listened to that Martin. On BBC news they've just quoted the government on the subject. 2015 is not a fixed date for the change-over; they don't want an unwilling public to be forced into the change. They will listen to the public. I think somebody has been remembering the problems when middle England revolted a few years ago! [:)]

We have digital radio in France; I mostly enjoy listening to it, but find the slowness when switching on and changing between stations irritating. Programmes suddenly disappear too; particularly irritating when a concert is on. We tried a couple of different digital radios, thanks to John Lewis, and found a Roberts model worked best for us.

 

[Martin963]

I'd be interested to know more about your "digital radio" gardengirl,   as I was under the impression that in France the old system (for which your nearest transmitter might have been Marseille but I doubt it would have got out to 30) had been switched off and that the new one was on test only in Paris.

Are you perhaps talking about an Internet Radio that works with your Broadband via WiFi?   (This is of course "digital" but not in the sense perhaps that was being asked by the OP)   That would explain the constant breaks.

For truly reliable reception satellite is best,   followed by FM (for French stations in France of course).    But the choice on an internet radio is huge.

[Gardengirl]

Martin, you are quite right; it does work via wifi. I didn't know there was another way!

[Martin963]

Well it's this all-pervasive word "digital" that leads to all the confusion.

Digital Radio can - ultimately - describe all of the following:

Digital Radio via satellite (BBC on Astra 2,  Radio France and German Radio on Astra 1,  etc)

Digital Radio via terrestrial digital TV (only in Britain as far as I know,   but a very convenient platform)

Digital Radio via DAB  (Digital Audio Broadcasting),  which is similar in use and in set-appearance to conventional analogue radio  (ie if reception is good you can pick up the set and move it from room to room)

Digital Radio via the Internet (including now on portable devices if one is prepared to pay for the subscription).

I've probably missed one or more!!

What was worrying the OP was the diversity in systems used to transmit what is loosely termed as DAB.    There are no (obvious or immediate) worries on the other three platforms mentioned above.

I suppose if one's internet connection is fast then your solution is actually very good.   Having said that I'm listening to Choral Evensong via the BBC iPlayer (last week's broadcast from Trinity College) and the stereo separation is very poor,   and I'm sure was far better on the broadcast itself (which I forgot to record when it was repeated).   And as our connection is far from reliable I'd not give up satellite reception readily!

[cooperlola]

Here's one for you, Martin!

When listening to the radio via my TV I'm obliged (afaik) to keep the "picture" on which, when you consider it's Plasma, to my mind is a very costly way of doing it.  Is it possible to get sound only out of a TV and have the picture switched off or is this the default, regardless?   I ask because a second big telly will be on the cards for my new room when it's done and I thought this would be a good feature to look for, should it exist.

[Martin963]

So is it one of those freesat integrated TV's coops,  I've forgotten.....?

Whilst that sort of thing often has some sort of radio screen saver I doubt there's a way of actually "turning the screen off".   

It's another slight disadvantage I suppose of having an all singing and dancing integrated set up (and one which I hadn't thought of).

To be honest if you're worried about the implications for the plasma TV and your electricity bill you'd probably be better off getting an additional FTA sat receiver for your radio listening (and running another cable down from your Astra 2 dish LNB),  and feeding the audio out through a separate hifi. 

Isn't life complicated!!

[gyn_paul]

The 'Today' programme had a go at this, this morning (thurs 8 July) and it seems the back-peddling is well underway, and the 2015 date has already gone from a definite to an advisory. If I understood cricketing metaphors I'd probably insert something about 'kicking' and long grass' here. There was a lot of waffle about 'national services being on DAB, while everything else would be 'safe' on FM' : complete and utter tishy-tosh. I've heard 4-year-olds marshall a more coherent argument!

One of the interesting observations which came out of the piece (or possibly last night's 'PM' - usually far more informative and less inflamatory) was the comparison between the digital switch-over(off) of analogue TV and of radio. The drivers are entirely different in that digital TV offered more channels (not necessarilly more choice: but that's an entirely different thread!) and the new kit needed to receive them was comparatively cheap. Whereas for radio, most people already have access on FM to the range of stations they want to listen to, and the cost of the kit to add more is comparatively expensive, and frankly still feels clunky and embryonic. As Martin pointed out, the radio audience is extremely conservative, and will certainly not be lead by the nose into paying out good money for no perceived gain.

And the idea that 30 million people are going to cheerfully go out and buy a DAB car radio to replace their FM models, where the reception (unless things change radically) is going to be worse, is just plain laughable.  

I also share your doubts about the viability of internet on-the-move and its consequent inability to provide a stable internet radio signal (quite apart from the cost model for such a service).

My other nagging worry about DAB is the progressive slide towards lower and lower bit-rates : cramming too many stations into too small a piece of bandwidth. This allied with the almost universal uptake of MP3 which has meant that there is a whole generation of people quite accustomed to poor quality sound, means that ultimately only old fogies like me will notice when the average standard has declined to the same bandwidth and frequency response as 2LO from Savoy Hill received on a pair of GPO headphones!

anyway...

I will take a bet that Wrotham will celebrate its 60th birthday (2nd May 2015) under no threat of closure and that all the national stations (well, all the BBC ones at any rate) will still be broadcasting loud and clear on FM in 2020.

 

 

P

[gyn_paul]

[quote user="Martin963"]So is it one of those freesat integrated TV's coops,  I've forgotten.....?

Whilst that sort of thing often has some sort of radio screen saver I doubt there's a way of actually "turning the screen off".   

It's another slight disadvantage I suppose of having an all singing and dancing integrated set up (and one which I hadn't thought of).

To be honest if you're worried about the implications for the plasma TV and your electricity bill you'd probably be better off getting an additional FTA sat receiver for your radio listening (and running another cable down from your Astra 2 dish LNB),  and feeding the audio out through a separate hifi. 

Isn't life complicated!!
[/quote]

 

...or (shhhh) feeding it into a small FM transmitter tuned to an unused frequency , then you can listen to your chosen radio station all round the house on your tranny. I believe this works quite well !

p

[Martin963]

I think you're right gyn_paul.    Although things *could* move very quickly I don't think they will in radio's case.   Not until there is some "thrilling" new platform that offers more choice,  better quality (ie the CD like quality we were promised with DAB),  and until someone has some bright ideas about how to revamp the actual content of radio.

I never thought I'd live to say it,   but even BBC radio sounds (in my view) very tired.  (I won't mention the catastrophe that is independent radio in Britian)    Radio 4 is just a daily "same old same old" with very few "treats".   You and Yours,   Front Row,  Woman's Hour,  the rolling tide of sameness with no advanced billing,  and only the odd gem here and there.

I happened on some Radio Times editions from 1971 and 1972 and the contrast was breathtaking for all four (then) BBC radio channels.     Programmes to "get your teeth into",   studio recordings and live relays abounding on Radio 3 (instead of today's lack of live relays and endless CDs),   well prepared and billed-in-advance Radio 4 material (with lots more music,   what *did* happen to all that music on Radio 4?   Or all the stories?).    Stuff that made one say "Gosh I must remember to listen to that".

Listening to certain presenters often shambling their way through the Today programme,  embarrassingly ad-libbing and mumbling (and thinking they are the bees-knees) seems to me the nadir of what it should be about.

[gyn_paul]

I agree with you, it's not what it was. But isn't it a bit like Churchill said of democracy? "The worst system of government - apart from all the others" ?

p

[Martin963]

Very fair comment.

I just wish that -  for example with You and Yours - they'd specialise the whole thing a bit.   By which I mean - say - Monday/Finance Tuesday/Consumer Matters Wednesday/Property Thursday/Your Rights Friday/Mixed Bag,   or something like that.   It (and Front Row) are all too last minute,   let's decide on the day what we're going to do (and what will be the cheapest subjects to cover).   Front Row they could (to an extent at any rate) do Monday/Music Tuesday/Theatre Wednesday/Books Thursday/Modern Culture Friday/Exhibitions (with obviously some flexiblity for first nights).    And spare me the "Front Row Specials".   Spare me Mark Lawson for that matter,   he can't even be bothered to sound sincere when he greets his listeners he's so busy falling over himself to rabbit on.

Most Sundays on Radio 3 there is not ONE SINGLE SPECIFIC bit of music billed on Radio 3 in Radio Times until the start of Choral Evensong at 16.00.   Why can't they get their planning act together (like they used to) and decide a few weeks in advance what music they're going to play?  Why?   Because they've taken the cheap lazy option.

But it's better than France Mus or France Int!

[Gardengirl]

Martin, I very much agree that set days for items on eg 'Front Row' and 'You and Yours' etc would be a good idea. However, hands off John Humphries - days always start better for me when he's on 'Today'. [:)]

[Martin963]

Well he does have vintage quality!

What bugs me (and has done for years) is that the whole timetable of "Today" has become so sloppy.    The last disaster (from my point of view) is to change the "Review of the Papers" from a Newsroom-scripted-Newsreader-read gem of concise-writing-beautifully-read prose to a stumbling ad-libbing shambles that - mercifully - gets shorter and shorter (and I'm sure the whole idea is to shunt it into the long grass anyway).    And the sheer unprofessionalism as they crash into the pips (or have to cut themselves short),  the fact they can't do the Sports at 0X.25 on the button,  the fact that the half hour summary is often at 0X.35 or later, suggests that the presenters have taken over control from the producers,   and this always leads to disater (cf Russell Brand!).    This temporal-stretching effect often manifests itself (to those in the know) as the ridiculous (and last minute) curtailement of the length of the weather forecast just before the pips,   but - oh glory - the TRAIL has to be broadcast in its entirety,   after all that's the most important bit from Radio 4's paranoic point of view.    Talk about priorities turned on their head.

Of course there's the off switch,   but I find (and again I never thought I'd live to say this) that I'm using it for pretty much everything on Radio 4 except "The Six O'Clock News" (the absolute gold standard for news broadcasting,   probably across the entire BBC in fact) and "The Archers" and "Choral Evensong" on Radio 3.    Thank goodness for Radio 7.....

If only the Radio Times billing was better and if only they'd specialise some of these same-old-same-old shows with items at a specific time that would appeal to me and get me to listen then it would be an improvement.    But I can't use the radio (not speech anyway) as background and therefore can't just leave it on in the hope that I'll be blessed with some serendipitous encounter.

Problem is that I've got a long memory having been an avid listener since a child in the early 70's,  and I worked for BBC radio in the 80's at a time when Lord Reith's influence still (just) pervaded the building and the people.

Your pin-up I only met once when he came into the studio where I was working looking for a pair of glasses he had mislaid.   We didn't find them,  but what a charming man he was back then (and probably still is!)

[NickP]

 For me one of the joys of listening to the radio via the TV satellite is the diversity of choice. One of our favourites is RTE (Ireland) they have great phone in programs; presented in a wonderful "Irish" way, and as I have been married to an Irish woman for many years so I am pretty good at understanding Irish English. Cooperlola asked earlier about turning the TV screen off while listening to the radio, I have my Hi Fi including the tuner cabled into the satellite box, I turn of the TV screen and listen to the radio; although of course the Sat.box is still on, I then  change radio channels via the Sat Box remote and of course if you want to see the Chanel information you have to switch the TV back on.

[gyn_paul]

<<<<Your pin-up I only met once when he came into the studio where I was working looking for a pair of glasses he had mislaid.   We didn't find them,  but what a charming man he was back then (and probably still is!)
Your pin-up I only met once when he came into the studio where I was working looking for a pair of glasses he had mislaid.   We didn't find them,  but what a charming man he was back then (and probably still is!) >>>>>

In my latter days at the beeb when I'd ceased doing anything useful or constructive like making programmes or managing departments, and had become - to all intents and purposes - a management consultant (spit) who (you will remember) is someone who borrows your watch and then tells you the time, I was based in the East tower at TVC and used to go into and out of the site via the Frithville Gardens turnstile entrance about 9.15 each morning. There is an odd trap one can fall into when working in an environment with famous people - or at least, familiar faces - and that is that you think you know them simply because you recognize the face. Normally, common sense steps in and reminds you that you only know the face 'off the telly' but not always.

I was about to go through the entrance turnstile one morning, preoccupied with some fresh hell, when John Humphrys popped out of the exit one. Coming face-to-face with somone who I automatically felt I knew I brightly wished him good-day in the chummy way you do to someone you work with, and he resonded in kind, and I passed on through. It was only after I'd continued on my way for 30 seconds or so that the realisation (and embarassment) hit me.

Moving on a couple of days and Mr H. and I had a repeat encounter a little further up Frithville Gardens (I was running a bit late that day) and this time it was he who caught my eye, as we passed each other, smiled broadly and bade me good morning. And ever after if we encountered each other he would always stop and pass the time of day. I don't know now if he was just being unfailingly polite or simply had the nagging feeling that he knew me from somewhere; either way, I can confirm what a nice man he is !

 

p