New Astra 2e/f/g footprints published.

[Jako]

The first footprints of the next generation UK satellites are now public and seem to confirm our worst expectations: click [:(]

[Martin963]

Very interesting,  thanks for that Jako,  particularly as "in another place" a question is being asked on this very topic.

The outer contour they publish is 55 dBW,  corresponding to a dish size of 40 - 50 cms,  ie very small.     I think they may have been very careful in how they've released this bit of news.

My guess is that where we are in 24 we'll be on the 50 dBW contour.   Now that of course is purely a guess,   but if that's the case our 80 cm dish will go on working fine.    Even if it's nearer 46 dBW we'd manage with a 1 m dish which is not a catastrophe.

One has to bear in mind that the 55 dBW is not the cut off point for reception,  far from it.     My hunch is that this map is a "spin" to a certain extent to keep those oh-so-precious rights holders off the case.

Is that how you interpret it Jako....?

[Sprogster]

They have to keep the Channel Islands under the main beam, as SKY has tens of thousands of official customers there, as if bigger dishes were required it would need planning permission and there would be a wave of protests! So Northern France should not be impacted I would have thought.

[Jako]

The 55 dBmW matches the sky minidish. What we do not know is how fast the signal will degrade outside this marker, but it should be much steeper than with the 2D or 1N. Should they decide to switch to the  KA band instead of the current KU band , that would end reception outside the published beam.

However, that would mean a new lnb for every customer, a boost for the economy [:)] , but very unlikely.

[Martin963]

[quote user="Jako"]but it should be much steeper than with the 2D or 1N.

[/quote]

Why do you say that?    Has anything actually been said as such?

As you say,  Ka would be a disaster.   Although I'm watching Irish TV on Saorsat in Devon using a 1 m dish.   More out of technical curiosity,    Irish TV isn't desperately wonderful!

[Jako]

Yes, the UK beam is designed that way. You can see that they even rotated the beam a bit to prevent eastern exposure. A satellite at 28 degrees east pointing at the UK makes it difficult to that. It would be much easier to produce such a beam from the French position at 5 west.

[Martin963]

I see what you mean about the beam being turned round compared to the NW/SE oval you'd expect.

Having said that   (and I'm prepared to have to eat my hat in due course)  I continue to doubt that we're going to see a catastrophic collapse in the signal in France.    It's possible we may need to get bigger dishes but we've been here before with scare stories (2003/2D/BBC) and it suits Astra/SES to make us all think that they can tighten up beams at will.

Personally I'm not going to get too agitated about all this.

[NickP]

Murdock won't be happy if the Brits in France/Spain with a UK address stop paying their contributions. So I really don't think that anything will change and if it does some twelve year old in sarf London will sort it out for a few quid. [:D]

[AnOther]

When is the cut over due ?

[Martin963]

I think it's a good year away (that's from memory,  I haven't checked).    Last time I looked I think 2F was due for launch end 2012 start 2013 with 2E a few months later.   Going to bed now but someone will know - Jako?

[Martin963]

[quote user="NickP"]

Murdock won't be happy if the Brits in France/Spain with a UK address stop paying their contributions. So I really don't think that anything will change and if it does some twelve year old in sarf London will sort it out for a few quid. [:D]

[/quote]

You may well be right about actual "Sky" subscription channels.    They can stay on pan European beams because they are encrypted and Murdoch can tell the rights holders that that is the case,   and that all cards are purchased in Britain.

It's the free to air (including BBC) stuff that's the worry.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]

Murdock won't be happy if the Brits in France/Spain with a UK address stop paying their contributions. So I really don't think that anything will change and if it does some twelve year old in sarf London will sort it out for a few quid. [:D]

[/quote]

Actually these days Brits in Spain don't use a disk or Sky box they receive their Sky TV through Internet companies via a (non Sky) decoder or by a terrestrial system with a (again a non Sky) decoder both these systems are from Spanish companies owned by Brits. How these companies get hold of the signal in the first place I have no idea.

[Sprogster]

I don't think there is any risk with the BBC, as it only broadcasts these days programmes it has commissioned and therefore owns the copyright. That is why you do not see foreign programmes or rarely films on the Beeb anymore. Also the BBC and ITV are required to maintain unecncrypted freesat mini dish and digital TV coverage for the Channel Islands, which by default covers an area of northern France.

Also following the legal case with SKY Sports you can no longer legally restrict viewing between EU countries and therefore in the future it is likely that subscription channels and copyrights will have to operate on an EU wide basis anyway.

[Quillan]

Well exactly. I was, and still am, hopeful that after this result that eventually language specific (i.e. French, English, Spanish etc, etc) national TV will be available to the whole of the EU. I would have thought that this would be an advantage especially for the 'pay to view' companies to go down this route as it opens up a whole new revenue stream for them. Of course we don't know what sort of deal they are already locked in to with the owners of the new satellites and may be committed for 'X' years to the size of the reception areas that are currently coming up. Then, playing devils advocate a minute, perhaps these satellite companies had crystal balls and thought lets lock them in now, we know whats coming and then we can sell them more 'space' on our satellites. Who knows what goes through these peoples minds.

I did (now to see if the single space paragraphing works) watch the program on News International and how it employed hackers to crack' the ITV ON Digital cards and Canal Plus cards, the latter were considered uncrackable, then spread the information around the Internet so that people could clone encryption cards. Not a nice company that obviously in general has no problem in ignoring the law.

[Théière]

Yes Q, the whole episode is closer to the Carver media group than we can imagine,

[Jako]

No, it is actually the BBC that are definitely 'not amused' with the fact that in some countries ( esp. Switzerland ) the BBC can be watched for free on cable TV. They would 'prefer' to get paid, like The Netherlands and Belgium do. 

Sky will have no problem as their programs are scrambled they can remain on a European beam and  they do not need to differentiate between EU countries, just subscriptions of EU citizens. Sky is now allowed (though not official yet) but not obligated to sell subscriptions outside the UK.

Astra2F launch is planned for Q4 2012, expect it to be operational early 2013. Astra2E is due in Q2 2013

[krusty]

I might have this all wrong , but as a lot of channels have moved onto satellite 1N already and people in France can receive them ok . Then surely channels on the new satellites which have virtually the same footprint will also be receivable in France ?

[Martin963]

The problem (or worry) is the fact that 1N is a stop-gap.    Astra/SES moved it there to provide spare capacity while they got on with  building 2E/2F,  but a lot of us believe that they knew something (and which they still won't discuss) about 2D;   it seems likely that they were at best worried that 2D was going to fail in some way fairly soon,   and so there was a real urgency to get another craft up there asap.

1N is actually designed for the 19.2 deg E Astra 1 Europe slot (Germany,  France,  Spain,  Holland,  Poland mainly), although it has somewhat tighter beams than have been used hitherto at 19 deg;    as soon as 2E and 2F are up and running 1N will make its way westwards to its permanent home,  while 2C (which is at 19 deg E at the moment) will come back.   With a bit of luck SES will crash them into each other!   2C is probably a bit of an embarrassment for SES as its beams are very wide,   and if they could have their time again they'd probably have put it somewhere safe for the future and speeded up building 2E and 2F.

In amongst all that waffle is the fact that 2E and 2F are designed to have a lot of "Britain-only" beams,  designed in part for people like the BBC/ITV who don't want the expense of encryption costs but must be able to tell those oh-so-precious rights holders that the signal stops at Calais!!!

And there's what we don't know,   the map tells us that reception will be excellent in Britain,  but it - tellingly - doesn't give any indication of how quickly the signal degrades as one moves away from the main area.   They could have shown that,  but they've chosen not to.   It is true that beam shaping is an art that is developing the whole time,  but we don't know at present how far SES/Astra are going to try and push it.

I think there's a good chance that it will be a bit tighter than 2D or 1N,   but I'm not going to get too worried (in 24) that there will suddenly be nothing,   although I've a 1 m dish in reserve in Devon which might need to be shipped out with us later this year....

We will see,   and although I'd miss radio more than TV, it is something to keep an eye on.   However,   BBC radio (with no rights issues apart from R5) is already on a beam with wide coverage and might well stay that way.

Given that the needs of satellite broadcasters change over time,  it may well be the case that SES/Astra don't want to make those beams too tight,  in case they render 2E and 2F useless in a crisis if they needed them elsewhere.    It's only a thought,  but it suits SES to be able to move craft round in an emergency,  and if they make them too slot-specific they could be hobbling themselves.   After all Sky Digital actually launched on 1D (borrowed in 1998 from 19 deg E),  2C has been briefly to its home at 28 deg E,  then was shunted off to 19 deg E,  1N is in the "wrong" place,  etc etc!

[Jako]

An 'informed' journalist wrote that 45 dBW (90 cm dish) will be at the German western border. When you extrapolate that to France you will need your 1 meter dish in 24. Time will tell, I don not expect any new information until we provide it ourselves when 2F is operational early next year. SES nowadays seems keen to keep this information secret. [:(]

[Martin963]

I can live with the need for a 1 m dish,  particularly as ours are all at ground level and easy to adjust/substitute.

But I can see a lot of moaning from the extremes of S France and indeed Spain.

As you say,  until it happens all one can do is to prepare a bit,  I'm looking at the costs of 1.2 m dishes just in case....

[krusty]

Thanks for the detailed explenation Martin .

1m dish ....pah I have a 3m dish that is no use now in Cyprus since the move to 1N no one can get BBC and lots of other channels.Doh.

[AnOther]

Dish size here no problem at all, whatever it takes [;-)]

[Théière]

[quote user="AnOther"]Dish size here no problem at all, whatever it takes [;-)]
[/quote]

Really? [:P]