Keeping a dog in an unfenced garden.

[Mjc]

I think this question was raised some time ago, but I cannot find it. Apologies if I am duplicating the query.

We have a very large, open garden in the country, which would be extremely expensive to fence. We also have a fairly newly acquired and wilful dog, who, we found very rapidly, loves to chase our neighbours chickens. Since our neighbour is also our mayor, we do not want to antagonise her - or her chickens!

Has anyone installed (or seen) the "fenceless" system of restraining a dog within the confines of its own territory. Do they really work - and how do they work?

Another alternative would be to close off a smaller area of the garden with an electrified fence. But is that practical or indeed safe and painless to the dog? What sort of cost might one anticipate?

Any help and advice from two frustrated owners and one frustrated saluki would be very welcome.

 

[Teamedup]

I've seen the system whereby the dog wears a collar and if they try and go past one of the many  bornes along the boundry that you set, then they get a little shock. We saw them in an Agri type shop, but they were quite expensive. Also we don't know of anyone with this system or if it really works.

We didn't want to enclose all our garden, so we enclosed part of it. Just used tall sheep fencing and wooden stakes. It still cost us, but far less than the other options.

[Harley]

Think I have seen these available in Point Vert.  You could also try e-bay.

[Chrissie]

Yes there was a thread on this sort of thing some time ago.  The one thing I do remember is that these training "shock-collars" must be used in a very specific and well-thought-out way, especially with a nervous or not-too-bright dog.  (Both of ours come into this category so hastily discarded any thoughts of that sort of system.)  Otherwise the effects can be the exact opposite of what you want and you end up with a traumatised dog.  Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will comment here.

Chrissie (81)

[Jonzjob]

Just up the road from us, in the Aude, is a riding stables. They have an enormous dog that wears one of these collars. He is quite friendly, but will not go outside his boundry. There are 2 types of system, both expensive. One has a buried cable that marks the boundry. If the dog goes to the boundry it hears a bleeping noise. If it carries on past it gets a small shock. The second type is 'wireless' and uses a radio signal from a central transmitter. You can set the range from a few yards up toabout 50 yards (I think, but not sure of the actual distance). Once again if it goes up to the edge of the setting it hears a sound and if it carries on it gets the small shock. They are both expensive, but the 'wireless' one is more. We have seen them in a petshop in Carcassonne called Magdog for about 850€! More than we wanted to pay!! The advantage of the 'wireless' one is that you can take it on camping or caravan holiday with you and set it to keep your dog on your pitch.

The dog needs to be trained to the system, but it seems to work well at the stables. I suppose you could use it for children too . Only kidding!!!!!!!!!!

I was walking my father's dog one day and he went up to an electric fence and sniffed it before I could stop him. He let out an enormous yelp and cowered, but believe me he never went near another one! I wouldn't use one to keep a dog enclosed...

In out new house (we sign the final papers Friday, YIPEE) we are going to fence part of the garden to contain our Chocky Labrador. Eventually we will put a fence down the 100 yard stretch that is escapable.

John.

[TiffanyS<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><U>hometown.aol.co.uktiffanystacpooleanimalmatters.html<U><FONT><P>]

[quote]I think this question was raised some time ago, but I cannot find it. Apologies if I am duplicating the query. We have a very large, open garden in the country, which would be extremely expensive to ...[/quote]

Invisible fence systems can be very effective but you do need to bone up on the training methods or it can turn into an expensive disaster.

The products on the page below include Invisible fence systems at UK/US prices which can be ordered online at much less than 800Euros

http://www.petsdirect.com/Hierarchy_Products.aspx?strGrp1Code=DOG&strGrp2Code=ATHOME&strGrp3Code=38&strGrp4Code=

[Mpprh]

Hi

a little off topic, but .............

Our dog will not go near horses. He'll run into the next field to go round them.

Why ? Magical powers !

When young, he saw horses in a field behind an electric fence. Low growls caused the horses to look directly at him. At this stage he moved forward to give them a good barking at. At this point, he put his nose on the electric fence, was thrown backwards, and gained an understanding of the magical powers of horses.

Peter

[I1]

Do not use them. They are very nasty and can have unexpected side effects (apart from the fact that they are cruel).

I tried one of these shock things on me leg some time ago (on the lowest setting) and it was very painful (tried to do it a 2nd time but couldn’t press the button and hold the device on my leg). People who use the word “small” (with regard to the shock) are generally selling the devices. I’m sure you don’t dislike your dog that much.

It is certainly not painless to the dog (as if it were a dog wanting to chase chickens would ignore it. Unfortunately they do not work by reminding the dog “remember, you must not chase chickens” – they teach the dog that if you go near this line it will “really hurt – so keep away”. Determined dogs quickly learn that if they rush at the “line” they can get through. Either way does not change the fact that they hurt like hell (which is how the stop the dog doing something), have unpredictable behavioural side effects (possible turning your dog into an aggressive problem), etc. (see links below)

Apart from the undesirable behavioural side effects they can cause, they can also cause localised skin problems when the electrodes make contact with the skin (burns and ulcers - http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RUFUS.HTM). These effects would probably be worse on a growing pup.

If you do use one, make sure the dog is alone when he has the collar on (i.e. no other dogs around) as there have been cases where the “shocked dog” kills another nearby dog when the shock is given (as far as he can tell he has been attacked as he felt the bit in his neck). I have personally witnessed a dog attack another dog when shocked (though fortunately without killing the other dog).

Although more about the remote control shock collars http://www.scallywagsdogs.com/proteam.html gives more info and lots of additional links. Note that the shock is the same for all these collars, the difference being in terms of whether you press a button or automate the shock with a “fence” – all equally inhumane.

I can put you in contact with an animal behaviour expert in the UK if you are unsure (you can call him) if you are uncertain (somebody who “picks-up-the pieces from dogs treated in such ways) – let me know.

They are really quite horrible and just because they are available does not make them an acceptable way to treat an animal. They are more readily available in France than the UK (see some of the links below)

In the UK The Kennel Club has banned these devices from being sold and any Kennel Club licensed events (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/index.asp?section=pressoffice/pressofficeframe.asp?mainpage=/pressoffice/issue_statements.asp)

“In 2003 David Rendel was able to reintroduce his Bill, this time referring to all animals rather than just dogs, for Parliamentary consideration. Unfortunately the Animals (Electric Shock) Collars Bill ran out of Parliamentary time.”

Also

**Applied Animal Behaviour Science Journal 25th March 2004

‘receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context’.

**Collars ‘turned dogs into killers’

this is Brighton & Hove, Thursday 25th October 2001

‘But the first time the dogs got a shock was by mistake, after a small dog they were walking past made Miss Langridge jump. From then on her pets associated the shocks with small dogs and became afraid of them’.

**BBC News, Thursday 29th October 1998

A witness to police dogs being punished with shocks and spikes said: “I have seen a dog react to an electric collar by jumping off the ground with all four legs, looking round to see where the pain had come from, then lying down on the floor and yelping”. (the person concerned ended-up in court and was found guilty of animal cruelty)

Sorry I cannot “hot link” the web addresses as #I don’t use Internet Explorer so you will need to cut/paste them.

[Patf]

We have the same problem plus need to keep neighbour's dogs out and have walkers passing by nearly every day which our dogs find a good excuse for a lively chase. I think the best way for us is as cheap a fence as possible : large - mesh grillage plus  split wooden or plastic posts. We have tried an electric collar but think it makes the dogs neurotic. Pat.

[cary]

I have the white electric tape around my horse paddock, and my dog also tested it out for me one day, with his nose and got a little shock and has not gone near it or attempted to chase the horses again!  The children have touched it before and as have i when i didn't think it was on and it isn't too painful, makes you jump really.  You can buy wooden or plastic posts and the tape in gamm vert, although i don't know if the posts will be too big for what you want.  You may need a couple of rowns of the tape and to be quite honest it doesn't look particulary nice.  Anyway good luck.

[Mjc]

Thank you for all your helpful replies and comments.

If I1 is correct, there is absolutely no way we would use an electric system which administers pain. Our understanding was that there was a very slight shock similar to the static which you sometimes experience when touching a car door for example - just enough to make one jump. This is borne out by the posting from Cary above. I will certainly read the various web sites listed before we do anything which might be harmful or painful to our dog.

We have experienced, some years ago, one of our dogs, touching an electric fence in the countryside, and then turning on our other dog, presumably in the belief that the latter had bitten her. Prior to that, they had been (and became again) the best of friends, but the amazement of dog number two was a picture!

[Boghound]

"I1" tends to live on another planet where animals are concerned. The shock administered by these devices, including collars, is extreemly mild. If not, children, horses and dogs would be dropping like flies, or standing around shacking all the time.

If your so worried about going down the electric "path". Just spend hours training the dog on long leads!

[I1]

I’m afraid I live on this planet (though sometimes whish I lived elsewhere).  I have tried one on these devices on myself (on the lowest setting).  Follow the links I posted earlier.  If it were such a “mild” shock, why would there be such an uproar about the collars.  Also, I it were such a mild shock the dog would just ignore it.

 

I do not offer myself as a “dog expert” – but have learnt from others (professionals) who have helped me with a particularly difficult dog.  In my post I provide references to other sites and reports that give case information about these collars.  Ask any APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers http://www.apdt.co.uk/about.htm), ask any APNBC (Association of Behavioural Councillors http://www.apbc.org.uk/article2.htm), Animals-In-Mind (http://www.animalsinmind.org.uk/ - a Pet Behaviour Centre), the RSPCA (http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=RSPCA/News/NewsFeature&articleid=1109267159592), the Blue Cross (http://www.bluecross.org.uk/web/site/HeaderPages/pawprint.asp).  There are private members bills trying to have them made illegal (http://www.davidrendel.org.uk/speeches/17.html), UK Pets (http://www.ukpets.co.uk/ukp/archive/news_items1_796.php “…a campaign started by The Kennel Club, and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, (RSPCA), to stamp out the cruel use of shock collars in the training of dogs”).  It was a major discussion topic at this years Crufts (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1520227,00.html).  Read the Kennel Club’s latest comment http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/pressoffice/show_issue.asp?id=23. etc. etc.

 

It is true that those who manufacture and sell these devices promote them as nice, gentle and harmless.  However, it is a profitable business and I think they may just have a bit of a vested interest ?

 

To quote from the Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors “The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors condemns the widespread use of devices which deliver electric shocks to dogs for the purpose of training or curing behaviour problems. Their potential for accidental misuse is high and they could easily cause considerable and unnecessary pain and distress to the animal.”.  Maybe Boghound has more experience that such organisations – I know I don’t which is why I take their advice.

 

I would urge anybody considering use of such devices to read the links above (don’t take my word about it).

 

I have given my credentials for my “advice/comment” (none – but using personal experience and the advice of other experience professional organisations).  Use of these devices is a serious matter (given the potential consequences) so maybe Boghound would give us the basis of his advice (contrary to the advice of may professional dog organisations).

[TiffanyS<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><U>hometown.aol.co.uktiffanystacpooleanimalmatters.html<U><FONT><P>]

[quote]I’m afraid I live on this planet (though sometimes whish I lived elsewhere). I have tried one on these devices on myself (on the lowest setting). Follow the links I posted earlier. If it were...[/quote]

I know how you feel about wishing you didn't live on this planet sometimes!!

To the original poster, I wanted to say that Il makes some very good points above as to why you shouldn't go down this route, but so do other posters who have different experiences. The thing to remember is to ALWAYS use electronic training devices with caution. Do the research and make an informed decision.

 I have seen them used very successfully in all sorts of training situations (the invisible dog fences work well but you do need to take the time to familiarise your dog with them) but obviously there are serious disasters and misuses too. Not all owners/trainers are concientious or caring. Certainly these collars are NOT generally advocated by professional dog trainers, only by those wishing to save time. If you do go down this route, choose the best equipment available as this will probably be the least painful and most efficient. Electric fence type shocks are always unpleasant, however mild. You can imagine how it would feel if it was administered to your throat...? As long as you are aware exactly what you are doing, then normally it should be okay.

Il provided you with some very good links which you should read but remember, sensible use of a good dog fence (whatever format it comes in) is better than a bullet in the head when your neighbours get fed up with your dog. If you really want to fence in your dog but not your land, then the same result can be achieved painlessly with a chain or some serious training. Dogs run off because we are ignoring them. Keep him with you.

It's always useful to remember that dogs are like children. If we ignore them, they misbehave to gain our attention. Difference is, dogs never grow up, they just get naughtier!!

Good luck with your dog whatever you choose.

Tiffany

ANIMAL MATTERS

[Franglais24]

We had an invisible fence, to supplement a physical fence, in the UK. A top of the range one, it cost us several hundred pounds.

The bitch would sit close to the boundary, the collar unit beeping away until the batteries went flat. Our neighbours told us the dog would simply make a run for it, jumping the physical fence like a deer. I can't be certain there isn't a link between the shocks and his epilepsy.

They're older now and simply aren't interested in roaming or chasing, but if they were there'd be no question, we'd be building a kennel with fenced run similar to the ones French farmers often have. Everything in the run would be safe, so there's the added bonus of there being less worries about a dog getting into trouble whilst unsupervised.

F24.

[Jonzjob]

We have just been to look at our new garden to see exactly what fencing we are going to need when we move this weekend-ish. There are several pine trees in the garden and one, where we were going to let Celé, out dog, roam has a catapillar 'nest' in it. So we will have to make her bit smaller ans away from it. Don't forget that they are due to appear on hte ground any time now!!! so beware all dog owners....

"Dogs run off because we are ignoring them."

As to the mention of dogs roaming because they are ignored. This may be the case, but not all the time. We have a Chocolate Lab, she is a poppet, but she is also a total pig. She will eat ANYTHING that most dogs would roll in, I kid you not. She will roam to try to find something to eat and when her nose goes in the air she switches her ears to off. We are both retired and spend almost all of our time with our dog. She definately is not ignored.

John.

[Boghound]

"I have given my credentials for my “advice/comment” (none – but using personal experience and the advice of other experience professional organisations).  Use of these devices is a serious matter (given the potential consequences) so maybe Boghound would give us the basis of his advice (contrary to the advice of may professional dog organisations)."

 

The basis of my advice is; I've used them in three countries on dogs, cattle, horses, sheep and deer. All to no decrement to the animals involved. Oh and before all the "bleeding hearts" ask. Yes. I've tried them out myself at the highest setting. The only effect was a terrific "boner".  

[I1]

I’m afraid the number of different countries you try them in makes no difference to their effect (i.e. they work the same in France as in the UK and in Hungary, etc.)

This thread is taking about dogs, not cattle, horses, sheep and deer.

For myself I would rather take the opinions of most UK dog organisations, all of whom are in agreement that they are cruel and should be banned. I take their opinions as they are professional organisations, they work with animals all the time (and see the effects such training techniques can cause), the fact that they have different interests and experiences yet are all in agreement. The fact that they have large numbers of members each with different experiences (probably in more than 3 countries).

If “Bleeding hearts” is another way of referring to people who care about their pets and animals and choose not to abuse them then I do count myself in that group (and actually still on this planet).

If you read the links I posted earlier, these organisations do not dispute that they work (though can cause very undesirable veterinary and behavioural side effects). The risks of cow or sheep becoming aggressive to people is far less than with a dog. Read the links and understand how their use can go wrong (nor how it WILL go wrong but CAN go wrong).

So the decision is “man with a boner in 3 countries” or RSPCA, Kennel Club, APBC, APDT, etc.

[astrid]

i1 is actually quite right. if you force a dog to do something through fear you will have a far less reliable response than is you encourage him to do it through positive means. this is pretty well universally accepted in dog training circles.

use of shock collars is cruel in any circumstances. just because somebody says it has worked does not make it any less cruel. however, use in unattended situations is even more likely to cause the behavioural side effects. when the dog receives this dual shock (like two teeth) in the neck it tries to put it down to something (a cause e.g. a walker with a stick who happens to be passing because there was nothing else around at the time). actually such things are not unlikley as a sleeping dog may easily be disturbed by somebody passing and rush towards them and wham - teeth in the neck. it is a strong negative stimulus and can very quickly cause a dog to become aggressive to e.g walkers (given what the last one did to him !!!). you can take a peaceful affectionate dog and turn it into something with a real behavioural problem very quickly. this is not saying that this WILL happen to your dog, just that it may. it has happened to other dogs. dealing with an aggressive dog is much harder than dealing with a dog who wants to chase chickens (which most dogs will want to do).

what would the world and press say if US soldiers strapped such devices to iraqi prisoners necks and played with them. does your pet deserve to be treated in such a way ?

i've only just been pointed here and find some attitudes expressed in this thread a bit disturbing. the fact that people cannot distinguish between dogs, cattle, horses, etc and treat them all the same way when it comes to training. i only have experience of dog training. when I did work on a farm we used barbed wire fences to keep the cattle in and not electric shock collars. also we never had difficulties with sheep chasing neighbours chickens.

in the past, training methods were used on pets that are no longer acceptable. i'm sure that in the future that things we do today will be improved on and todays practices will also become superdeeded by superior ones. people who continue to use outdated (and sometimes cruel) training methods do their pets a disservice.

sorry mr boghound but you are rather out of date in your animal training and care techniques

(i will not discuss my credentials is this post is in a personal capacity)

[Babnik]

I wonder if you could use these collars as swimming pool security? Just fit a collar around your 5 year old and if he/she approaches the pool they'd get a shock!

Of course I'm only kidding, but those who perhaps think it's ok for a dog might think again!

[Robbie34]

As others have similarly posted, negative reinforcement is not the way to train any animal, particularly a dog.  No way would I even consider subjecting my dog - a cocker spaniel - to such inhumane treatment.  You don't have to be a "bleeding heart liberal" to know that positive reinforcement is the best means of producing a correct response from an animal.  Amazingly, it works with kids as well.

[Maddie]

[quote]As others have similarly posted, negative reinforcement is not the way to train any animal, particularly a dog. No way would I even consider subjecting my dog - a cocker spaniel - to such inhumane tr...[/quote]

Here, here!  Robbie, Astrid and Il have made very valid points and I can't add any more to the debate other than...

if you intend to live in your porperty for any length of time (ie as a resident) and want to keep your animals safe (and passers by and neighbours livestock) and secure the only way to go is decent fencing. We fenced in our entire 13,000m² with sheep fencing and split chestnut paling and it has been the best investment we've made since we've been here.  Our dogs are safe, passers by are safe, next doors chickens, sheep and cows are safe, we don't have to worry about other dogs getting in or ours getting out!  It seemd like a lot at the time but it does the trick perfectly!

 

 

[Mjc]

Again, many thanks for all the helpful replies.

At the outset, I did not know whether the advertised devices gave shocks or simply some audible warning that the dog would learn to associate with "No".

Normally, this particular dog is extremely responsive, having been fully trained by us in all the basics of sit, stay, heel, come, down,  etc, but once she gets in to the great outdoors she becomes totally deaf - even ignoring calls that promise goodies. She had been raised with a pack of some ten salukis with total freedom in her breeder's private wood, and we did not acquire her until she was nearly ten months and totally free spirited.

Looks like an expensive fencing problem, which is doubly annoying because we are planning to move shortly, after ten happy (dog-problem free) years. What's the cost of about 750 metres of fencing - plus access gates?

[Robbie34]

You are not the only one with a dog that's selectively deaf.  Charley, my cocker, is just that.  He's a very obedient dog, but when we are out walking, he'll get his nose into something and become stone deaf.  However, for all of that he'll stay when told.  In the house his response is instantaneous.

Fencing is the best solution for you - and it will give peace of mind.  Even the most obedient dog is easily distracted, and you also need to keep him safe from outside intrusion.

[cary]

I have a 2 year old english bull terrier.  Tried to train him as a puppy but all he wanted to do was jump on all the other pups being that he was so much bigger and stronger!  On first moving here with alot of surrounding farming land we couldn't let him out alone, he would attempt to chase the cows so couldn't take the risk.  Now he ignores the horses, and although he sometimes disappears he has not gone where he shouldn't but can sometimes be a pain when we are busy doing something as he doesn't always come when called.  An empty crisp packet tends to do the trick.  He is also quite revolting and will eat everything too that most dogs would roll in!  He is particularly fond of poo, any type will do horse, cow etc he can be quite disgusting!  But we still love him.  Best of luck anyway