restrictions on chickens

[Porth]

In line with hundreds of thousands of other people be they French or otherwise we have but six chickens in our garden and who roam freely save for when they are near the vegetable patch.

However this morning the French Government announced that in either 20/21 departments including Manche (where we live) then flocks of chickens have to be kept inside and not allowed to roam.

Our French is not that good so please can someone tell us whether this restriction solely applies to those who are actively engaged in commercial activities as well as those of us who just enjoy having six or so chickens?

kind regards

 

 

[GRT17]

Porth

This is on Yahoo news this p.m., 21 departments have the ban and these have been selected because poultry reared outdoors could come into contact with migratory birds who may carry La Grippe Avare.

Worrying news for anyone with free range poultry. I think it will apply to everyone whether they keep 6 or 6000. It might be an idea to check at your local Mairie

Gill

[Porth]

Thanks for that.  However have this afternoon checked with our neighbour and whilst she did not say tant pis she did say that it only applied to producers!  I will check with the guys down at the big house tomorrow. Indeed and on a drive this afternoon counted some 50 or so farms with chickens just roaming about outside.

However this is something that we all have to take aboard and lessons learned.

We all feel saddened by all of this but we as a society (that is in the UK) expect chicken at realistic prices hence Tesco and hence the Far East. Then of course chicken comes into the UK is processed there and ends up with a 'badge' indicating that it is of course a UK product?

Indeed when Dudly Moore was advertising Tesco chickens from Le Landes it was a fact that the poor farmer cooperative down there received their money some eight weeks after it was consumed.  Thus a supermarket runs on other peoples money.........their suppliers.

This would not apply in Bresse where you are expected to pay top euro for top product.

Does anyone else please have a view on the restrictions?

 

thanks

 

[chris pp]

It appears from my reading of the announcement that even larger breeders will be treated with "flexibility" if it is not possible to house the birds. I don't seriously think it applies to a few chickens in the back yard, not in a country where so many people keep a few hens.   Chris

[Russethouse]

I fail to understand this logic. If a bird with avian flu is flying past do you think he looks for a 'big producer' before it lands ? I suspect that the bird will land where it feel exhausted. Not only that but if you have only 6 birds perhaps you 'pet' or 'fuss' them a little more, thus increasing your own risk.

My parents used to keep chickens in large wired coop. That would keep the chickens in and wild birds out ......not perfect, but perhaps better than letting them run wild at present.

I know it looks like over reaction but if the French government really wanted everyone to say 'oh it doesn't mean me' then they would have been more specific. (although I think I have read elsewhere it was breeders that the regulations applied to ?)

Good Luck with your chooks......

[chris pp]

The types of migrating birds that are likely to be infected are not going to be the birds that will be landing close to your home, unless you happen to live in a hut on a wetland, near large lakes or in the woods. I suppose the difficulty is if it gets passed to other birds who will come close to your home. At the present it is not at all clear how the virus is being moved around, migrating birds are only one of several possibilities or permutations.

[GRT17]

I am with Gay on this one.

According to the Yahoo info they have also announced a ban on selling poultry at markets.

Gill

[BJSLIV]

The restrictions for poultry at markets concerns the sale of live birds. So its tough for granddad who normally  cycles home from the market with a chicken with its head poking out of a cardboard box on the bicycle carrier.

 

[Russethouse]

>>The types of migrating birds that are likely to be infected are not going to be the birds that will be landing close to your home, unless you happen to live in a hut on a wetland, near large lakes or in the woods. <<<

Chris you are the 'expert' but many people on the forum do live 'rural lives' and probably are close enough, certainly to woods and some near lakes to I would guess. Do sick birds behave 'normally' ?

Frankly I would have thought the risk would be greater in the spring when we get birds back who have gone South for the winter, but as I said I am no expert.

[SaligoBay]

We all feel saddened by all of this but we as a society (that is in the UK) expect chicken at realistic prices hence Tesco and hence the Far East. Then of course chicken comes into the UK is processed there and ends up with a 'badge' indicating that it is of course a UK product?

I think all countries are the same.  Most chicken in France comes from intensive farming, that's why much of it is so cheap.  Free-range is clearly marked as such, and is always more expensive.

I looked in the supermarket yesterday - 20 "ordinary" eggs for just over half the price of 10 Bio eggs.  Plein air eggs were cheaper than Bio, but still a lot more than the ordinary ones.

The real country of origin is also a problem everywhere.  All those discussions during BSE, remember those lambs?  If you brought a lamb over from Britain, it legally became a French lamb after 24 hours?  Or something like that!   Most frogs' legs come from Vietnam, horse comes from all over the world, a lot of foie gras comes from elsewhere, many Mediterranean fish actually come from fish farms over Greece way.

Eating ethically is something I've unfortunately had to give up in France, it's just too expensive!!   I buy Fair Trade coffee when I see it, because I don't drink coffee every day.   Otherwise it's supermarket-brand coffee-and-chicory powder!  Yummeroonies!!!! 

   

 

[Porth]

Thanks to the various contributors.

Having now read it on AOL it does seem that flexibility is written into the Government announcement and that where 'batiments' do not exist then precautionary measures as best one can should be adopted.

Obviously problem is that as one contributor says you tend to 'fuss' over the chickens and thus are in very direct contact and equally then at risk.

However again on reading there were 60 people who died last year in Asia from the flu.  Any death is unacceptable but it does sort of put it into some form of context.

 

thanks again

 

 

[Cal50]

As far as I understand it would be a sensible precaution to feed your chickens / ducks etc inside the buildings if at all possible to discourage wild birds from mixing with domestic foul plus move their drinking source inside . I think netting them in has to reduce risk but will not eliminate it because they will perch on top and do their 'business ' which will drop in the path of the chooks

Hope that helps

[Iceni]

FWIW - our hens live in a fenced compound of 300/400 m2, sleeping inside. As they are egg laying machines we do not pet them. It would be harsh to confine them to just their hut and small run so we will allow them to carry on as at present knowing that if they catch flu they will have to die.

Di thinks that on balance we are all at greater risk of salmonella poisoning that a version of bird flu but perhaps that's her rose tinted specs again.

John

not

[chris pp]

First, the birds that will sit on top of your pen and poop on them are not the birds that would be of concern at the moment - So fencing in is a good idea, even open topped, again these birds will not land in a smallish fenced area. I sort of assume (never really a good idea) that we are talking about people with a small number of hens/ducks/geese "in their garden" not fields full of them - so near the home . I think that Gay is right that the time of greater concern may be the spring after birds had more chance (possibly) of mixing in their winter quarters. One thing is for sure, there are a lot of people across France with an eye open for unusual bird deaths, all the main migratory stop overs are well covered.

Chris.

[Patf]

Can someone give a reference for the departments which have these restrictions. Have tried on Google but haven't got anywhere. Pat.

[Patf]

Have just found this reference on another forum giving list of departments:  http://www.thisfrenchlife.com/thisfrenchlife/2005/10/banonoutdoor.html

[Cal50]

Sorry should have put more detail - when I said that affected birds may poop into pens I took this comment from a French government site where I guess they were thinking of the flu having passed on to normal garden birds . I can't find the site just now but will post it if I can

[Cal50]

link from anglo-info

By David Evans

PARIS, Oct 25 (Reuters) - France on Tuesday ordered chickens, geese and ducks farmed in more than one fifth of the country to be kept inside over concerns that migratory wildfowl could spread the deadly Asian strain of bird flu to the country.

Amid signs that H5N1 avian influenza, essentially a poultry virus which can be fatal to humans, could soon spread across Europe, France also said that markets, fairs and displays featuring wild birds would be suspended across the country.

Farm Minister Dominique Bussereau said the ban on outside poultry would apply in those departments where domestic birds were at risk of coming into contact with migratory fowl, believed to be the main carriers of the virus.

In the rest of the country, poultry must not be fed outside.

While noting the national food safety agency AFSSA had evaluated the risk of bird flu infection in domestic poultry as negligible, he said the government had decided to take measures similar to those adopted in other European Union countries such as Germany, the Netherlands, Poland and Austria.

"Out of the principle of precaution, we want to go beyond the advice of AFSSA," he told a news conference to announce the measures, which will run until Dec. 1.

"In those departments which present a particular risk of contact with migratory birds, the measures consist of a confinement of open-air breeding concerning domestic, wild or pet birds," the Farm Ministry said.

It listed 21 departments, out of a total of 96 in France, that had a particular risk of contact, mostly areas along the Atlantic coast and in the east of the country.

These matched two major routes used by birds migrating to winter destinations, Environment Minister Nelly Olin said.

FREE-RANGE STATUS

Bussereau also said he would seek a temporary change in rules governing free-range poultry so that farmers could keep any existing quality labels for their produce.

He said there were some 30,000 poultry farms in France, of which 42 percent reared birds in the open air, accounting for 17.5 percent of the total amount of poultry slaughtered.

He said the label exemption would avoid what could have been "an economic catastrophe" for the industry.

France's main FNSEA farm union said the measures were necessary and would help in the fight against bird flu, although they could be difficult to implement and it was essential farmers were reimbursed for any costs.

Bussereau said France would ask EU Farm Commissioner Mariann Fischer Boel for EU funds to co-finance information costs associated with the confinement measure.

The ministry also said if it was not possible to confine poultry, for example due to a lack of available buidlings, "equivalent protective measures as well as reinforced surveillance" had to be put in place.

Authorities in departments not considered at risk could ask for a special exemption to the suspension of displays of live animals at markets and fairs.

The EU on Tuesday banned imports of wild birds and certain poultry products from Croatia. It was also poised to ban all imports of captive wild birds after a parrot died of the H5N1 strain in Britain.

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[chris pp]

Maybe not relevant, but interesting. This virus strain has been known since 1997, at any rate for many years. Looking at the history I can't quite figure out why only now is it reaching panic proportions. The possibility of it being transported by migrating birds would, it would seem, have always been there and it appears likely that we were just not looking. A handful of bird deaths in Russia or Turkey could easily have been overlooked. I am not attempting to draw any conclusions and there is probably something I have missed - any comments?

Chris

 

[andyh4]

Chris

isn't the reason for the panic that until this year the virus has been contained in SE Asia.  Starting in the Northern Vietnam, Thailand, S China area (IIRC) and only gradually spreading.  This year for the first time it turns up in Siberia - which is the summer grounds for a number of birds which migrate over bits of Europe.  AFAIK there are no significant migratory patterns between SE Asia and Europe.  So its all down to the spread pattern.  Yes it could have happened a couple of years ago and no one noticed, but you might have expected domestic birds to have been affected (as they have been this year in the former USSR).

Or have I misunderstood the whole story

 

[Coco]

One of our current B&B guests is a micro-biologist and we touched on this subject last night.  She felt that at the moment there was virtually no risk of human contraction of the disease, as although a few people HAVE died of it in the far east, it has not properly mutated into a virus easily contracted by humans.  However, she did say that it WILL happen at some stage and interestingl enough, this so-called vaccine created by Roche is virtually useless, because until it does mutate, they will not know what vaccine will work against it.

An interesting comment she made was that she has read several medical papers on the great flu pandemic of 1918, which killed vast numbers of people.  It is now strongly believed that this evolved in France, probably initially from pigs and chickens and from the fact that often soldiers in the trenches were living in close quarters with them, all wading about in the mud together and with pretty poor hygiene. 

I don't fear so much the thought of birds passing it on to each other on a trans-continental basis.  My fear is that it will eventually mutate in the far east, where a lot of people live in similar conditions to those described in these medical papers, and with the world being so much smaller than it once was, with air travel etc, that it will be the humans who will spread it so rapidly around the world.