"The teachers don't make any allowance......"

[BJSLIV]

Should we expect them, teachers, school, or communes, to make any allowance? Why should they provide additional resources to bring our children up to speed?

We choose to make the move to France, nobody forces us to do it.

We choose to put them into a local school which may well be strapped for cash already, and any money spent on "Foreigners" is diverting resources away from the kids who are already there.

Isn't it our responsibility to make sure that we budget for our kids education in the same way that we allocate money for the roof, the pool or the fosse septique?

Otherwise move when they are little, or you must just hope that they swim rather than sink.

 

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

Extra resources no.

My teachers gave time, patience, sympathy and encouragement freely, over and above their duty and without being thanked for it, never mind paid. Such practices are actively discouraged at collège or lycée level, afaik (I should be delighted to hear of examples that contradict this) and would benefit not only foreigners but native French people also.

I agree with you that people who move to France from the UK should be entirely responsible, financially and otherwise, for equipping their children to deal with the French education system but I think that an education system which dealt positively with differences and difficulties would benefit everybody; people in France with indifferent parents should be given the opportunity to be educated, whatever their nationality. Children and therefore France would benefit from this more than the deficient parents.

[Cjb]

Surely, it is the responsibility of all EU member states to provide support to those living and working within their borders. If not, what is the point in opening these borders?? Of course parental responsibility plays a large part, but it remains the responsibilty of the French Ministry of Education to provide the resources to enable all pupils to fully access the school programme.

Can you imagine the outcry if teachers in the UK refused to offer no additional support to non-english speaking children (Racism!!). I get the feeling that some people that would decry such behaviour in the UK, would, at the same time, excuse french teachers for behaving in such a way towards non-french speaking english children.

[Russethouse]

>>but it remains the responsibility of the French Ministry of Education to provide the resources to enable all pupils to fully access the school programme<<<

Is that your opinion or the law ? ( I'm interested, not making a comment)

[Cjb]

Merely opinion. I await to see if it is in fact policy/law. Does anyone know??

[Dick Smith]

I've no idea about France, but in the UK I believe that EAL teaching was only mandatory for pupils from New Commonwealth countries, and was funded separately under what was Section 11 money. I found this on a website, though, which shows recent changes:

'Money provided by the Government to help meet the linguistic needs of children and adults for whom English is not a first language was initially introduced under the Local Government Act of 1966. It was known as Section 11 funding. 

For its initial 26 years, its scope was restricted to the needs of “immigrants from the (New) Commonwealth” but in 1993 its scope was extended to include all ethnic minorities. A whole range of anomalies arose from its initial restrictions. A support teacher could be in a classroom officially to help pupils whose origins were “New Commonwealth” while there were ethnic minority children in the classroom from non Commonwealth backgrounds whose linguistic needs were far greater. 

Its purpose now is to address disadvantage – brought about by differences of language or culture – experienced by members of any ethnic minorities in accessing education, training, employment and a wide range of opportunities, services and facilities that are available to other people. 

The largest single use of the grant is to support the cost of employing additional teachers and bilingual classroom assistants to teach English as an additional language in schools. 

In 1998, Section 11 funding was replaced by The Ethnic Minority Achievement Grant in England. This is intended to provide equality of opportunity for all ethnic minority groups 

 to meet the particular needs of pupils for whom English is an additional language (EAL); and  

 to raise standards of achievement for those ethnic minority groups who are particularly at risk of under-achieving.  

The EMAG grant is devolved to schools so each school can choose how to spend it.  Funding is primarily for provision for ethnic minority pupils in schools.'

So it seems there is no EU directive/funding.

[Miki]

We arrived expecting no help and that is what we got. We paid for private lessons throughout the summer in readiness for la Rentrée. I have already posted on this so will not elaborate further.

 

I cannot see why it should be expected that teachers or the educations departments should be expected to offer extra help. How far are you going to take this, is it now 25 countries in the EC ? so in fairness all immigrants from those countries , they will want the same treatment.

 

Talking to a couple of teachers last week about the greves, they are pretty worried for their jobs and those of their colleagues. The money is being cut back and has been so for a while now. They do believe that they should help sometimes but do not think that immigrants should have the money for them, if it means further cutbacks in staff.

 

In an ideal world, education wouild have top priority for all the people within its borders but money simply is just not available and the strikes agaisnt the expected further cutbacks to try and plug the black hole is further proof of that.

 

I have read elsewhere and here, that some parents have had kids that have been helped by some kindly teacher, well in our case we had no help whatsoever and that goes for nearly every single one of our friends. I really wish they had some help but that is the way it is here and has been for a long time.

 

With the way the strikes are going here at the moment and with public support for the public sector workers standing at over 65%,  I doubt very much if support and cash set aside for foreigners at French schools will be too high on the agenda.

 

So anyone bringing kids here, do not expect help, financially or teaching wise unless you are one of the very lucky ones who get some help offered, so please do get lessons sorted out and be prepared for a struggle in the early days and for many sadly, throughout their schooling.

 

 

[Russethouse]

I agree with Miki in that I believe anyone considering the move should prepare their children with language lessons both before they go and when they get to France, and be prepared to pay. Consider any other help a real bonus.

Personally I would think very long and hard about moving with any child above the age of eight or nine, but that opinion only comes from reading these boards over a period, it depends on what you are moving from, as well as to.

On the other hand I think that the UK government has the better approach. I think its imperative to support the learning of English in school for non English speakers.

How employable would non english speaking school leavers be ? Surely to give as much support as possible toward a better education is in the countries own interests?

[BJSLIV]

"Surely to give as much support as possible toward a better education is in the countries own interests?"

But as far as the provision of additional language resources are concerned, the French have other more pressing demands, such as the integration of people from their own ex-colonies. These will surely  rank ahead of "hobby migrants" where experience shows many are  back in the UK within 5 years.

I know its an extreme example, but where was the benefit to the community from educating our celebrity TV Chef's kids for a year while he was recharging his batteries/ writing a book / making a TV prog.

[Miki]

But as far as the provision of additional language resources are concerned, the French have other more pressing demands, such as the integration of people from their own ex-colonies. These will surely  rank ahead of "hobby migrants" where experience shows many are  back in the UK within 5 years. I know its an extreme example, but where was the benefit to the community from educating our celebrity TV Chef's kids for a year while he was recharging his batteries/ writing a book / making a TV prog.

BJ,

That's exactly the thought that was running through my mind.

In the UK, there is an extemely long history of immigrants coming to the UK for more or less life and in many cases, well into several generations down the line. Such a history, even in the years from say, around the early sixties, the Brits emigrating to France is practically non existant. The longer stayers to my mind,  really do seem to have been the ones without kids, i.e the semi and retired folks.

To teach British kids in readiness for working life is probably throwing good money down the pan and the French and their education departments in particular, have far more pressing needs in their budget.

That chef, compeletely screwed about with the elder kids lives by bringing them out to France on a whim and a chance to make money from a documentary.

I have to say, that even racking my brains, I can only think of a couple of kids out of many that we have known, that have found semi decent jobs and are working here in France after going through primaire, college and Lycée. Jobs around here, out of summer are difficult enough for the local kids to find, so you can imagine just how tough, nay, impossible it is for British kids to get a job.

 

[Dick Smith]

There have always been short-stay foreigners, just not in rural areas and small towns - we used to have lots of 'Embassy Kids' who would stay for a year or two and then move on, but that was in London. It probably isn't the same in deepest France, so there isn't a support structure.

On the other hand if the mother tongue of the incomers is English there is more chance of finding a teacher who speaks it than, say, Hungarian.

[Russethouse]

While I see the 'argument' and have some sympathy for it, it would seem an odd stance from a government that insists on making every one equal even at the risk of offending huge religious groups.

The English immigrants *should* be treated the same as the other non French speaking immigrants, from their own colonies or not. Too much to expect ?

[Miki]

While I see the 'argument' and have some sympathy for it, it would seem an odd stance from a government that insists on making every one equal even at the risk of offending huge religious groups.

The English immigrants *should* be treated the same as the other non French speaking immigrants, from their own colonies or not. Too much to expect ?

Gay,

You are trying to use good old British logic, that I am afraid is one thing that you realise quite quickly, is not how it tends to works here.

France, as we all know, will sign up for just about everything BUT then as always, find a way to make the regulation suit them best, if not, well just ignore the rule. I have forgotten now just how many judgements are against France in the EC and just how much the fines total mais................

Are they wrong ? Well many people in the UK moan that they toe the line and France does what it wants, some say that is right some say not, c'est la France.

Dick is right, of course Paris and some of the other large cities here will have specialised schools for the Embassies and large companies, that is a very diffrent thing altogether. To apply that to hundreds of little communes and villages, is a completely different ball game. Any English speaking teachers in a rural school may just help the kids but, in no way could you rely on that.

You have heard plenty of others say just how unhelpful many teachers are here, so it wouldn't really matter if it was Hungarian, Czeck or what they spoke, the chances of that teacher offering up her own time is doubtful to say the least and if it is college years extremely doubtful, that's the way it is but one does hear of the occasional helpful teacher but in my experience, they rare indeed.

 

 

[Deby]

My opinion is that money and training should be made available to teachers/schools so that any immigrant can receive addtional help. Does not necessarily need to be financial.  Teacher training in France should include how to deal with other cultures/religions/languages.  I probably sound very p.c. but this is my belief.

Europe is changing and so should the institutions within Europe.  Education needs to react to the differing needs of its people. The French are going to the UK, the Brits are migrating everywhere and so are other EU nationalities, so why should the Education System  be exculded. Education in France has to change. Dare I say it diversification is needed.  Change is something the French are very reluctant to do.

I know the pot is only so deep, but to do nothing is ignorance. We all know what ignorance can lead to.

Deby

[Teamedup]

I think that that was the point I was making on my last post on the French School, mixed experiences thread. No allowances are made for anyone.

Kids usually pick up the speaking bit quite quickly and unless they are 'old' will be sans accent quickly too. And then they are thrown into the same marmite as everyone else and their written work has to be of that standard.

So should the french be spending ressources on imigrés. I would have appreciated a sporting chance sometimes in primary school. The teachers all knew me, knew what a strong accent I had  ( I do try, and it isn't as bad as some, but strong never the less) AND they knew how difficult it was for me to say some words. So my kids never had much of a sporting chance when I had to  prepare those dictees with them. And the other homework, those things that were particularly french which one wouldn't nessesarily know and unfortunately just couldn't just look up like that. And this sort of thing annoyed me beyond belief.

Their (the teachers) philosophy was that the kid could resit and would know the next year........ what a bad way to use ressources, well it still seems so to me. Sometimes it wouldn't take many minutes with a kid to get them up to scratch, never mind them redoing a whole year. Just because a child hasn't got one little bit, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be bored whitless doing the year again.

 

And paying for lessons. When my kids were small, I hadn't got the money to pay for lessons. I had no kids when I got here and frankly when we had them, I hadn't expected teaches who just gave lessons and didn't 'teach'. My imagination was never so ungenerous as to imagine that that would be the case and in consequence, moving to this very expensive country as it was then, I didn't budget for such a thing and we had a few hard years when we first signed for this house.

Everyone is different. Knowing what I know now, I really wouldn't want to bring any child to France and if it was imperative I did, I still wouldn't want to bring a child over around 8 years old. And that would be if they had plenty of additional lessons, poor little souls..... long days at school and then the added joy of more learning.

So I agree with 'the teachers don't make any allowance'.........should they, well sometimes it would not come in a miss.

 

[Russethouse]

Slightly off topic, but a couple of times recently I have heard foreign journalists and others state on TV and Radio that in their opinion the UK has a 'genuinely successful multi cultural society'. Frankly I was surprised, and not very sure they were right, but at least 'we' see the need to aim toward that and I am glad that we do.

When people move to France they often make huge plans, budgets etc, roofs, extentions etc and overlook the *small* matter of extra lessons for their children. While French education is not going to alter too significantly any time soon, and the concept is completley different to that of UK education, I think its pretty essential to organise this extra help, earmark some funds, especially for slightly older children.

Many years ago we briefly considered the *move* but one factor was my son, who is not the least academic, although bright. I knew how to get help when and if he needed it in the Uk, I wouldn't have had that knowledge in France. I think life for him (and with him too )in France would have been a nightmare.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

I have said before that my kids have had far better schooling so far here in france than they ever received back in the UK,it seemed to us and a lot of the other parents quite a few of them even took the kids out of the school, that the school they were attending was spending far to much on of their budget on muslim no english speaking kids to the detriment of the school as a whole,that would never happen here in france.That said the french do teach other languages and our kids find the english lessons great and are popular just after them,the sooner the EU puts in force English as the main language the sooner english kids will have the advantage and the french will have to come to terms with the fact that it is in fact english which is the no1 language in the world.The teachers here do help with extra lessons outside school hours and for free,we did have a tutor for them once a week before we came to france and had spent many holidays down here some 4/5 times a year so the kids know pretty well the french way and could speak and interact when we arrived here.Given the choice I would want our kids brought up here rather than where we were in the UK,and although I know TU will disagree it is far better for them here than it ever could be in the UK,as for what they will do after leaving school well anybodies guess,I will not force them to go to uni that is for sure.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Some posters have already touched on this, but... it is a very different kettle of fish arriving in France with children who have reached school age than if one arrives with pre-schoolers.

Noting Miki's point (which I think is entirely valid), if a move to France is genuinely permanent then, in general, I would expect children who have never experienced anything different to accept and progress within the French as though they were French. Having now been through the experience with very young children (under two and three-and-a-half when we arrived), I realise now that I personally would not choose to move children once they had commenced school in the UK. Similarly, moving children back to the UK after a few years in the French system would be extremely disruptive.

Of course, plenty of people don't enjoy the luxury of choice, in which case the only fair course of action would seem to be to give children as much French language as humanly possible prior to arrival and to commit to supplimentary courses once they have entered school.

I have no idea whether my children are getting a better education here than they would in the UK - since they cannot follow both tracks simultaneously any attempt at comparison seems something of a farce. My mother-out-law inspects at primary school level for OFSTED - her opinion seems to be, that aside from rather more importance being placed on the quality of handwriting in France, the two are much of a muchness.

[Teamedup]

Outcast, Ah how right you are, I don't agree and prospects here, that is the key thing, what prospects? But when did you say that your kids were getting a better education here..... did I miss it, perhaps I did?

I sincerely hope that things improve. At the moment we'll soon be getting to the stage where you need a degree to work a checkout....... along with those many hundreds of jobs one doesn't need to have such qualifications for.

 

[Russethouse]

outcast, you have done basically what I suggested. Your children had benefited from frequent visits to France and had extra lessons both in the UK and France. You have been further helped by free lessons at the school your children attend and no doubt by your own efforts to 'integrate'. (The free lessons don't appear to be forthcoming in all schools, by any means)

You didn't like the school your children attended in the UK because of the number of ethnic pupils, but unless we do our very utmost to educate immigrant children so that they can fulfil their potential, as a country we are asking for trouble.

Its no good anyone complaining about crime born of racial tension if we deny immigrants the opportunity to an education that would enable them to to become valuable members of the community/society.

Shame life isn't always that perfect really

[Miki]

Outcast,

Whereabouts are you in France and what age are your children ? Are they at College or in Primaire or even maternelle ?

It may be important to know this. If they are at say CM1 or 2 then they have yet to feel the difference that college is to the early years at French school, which so many newcomers seem to love and yes, for then most part, the early years can seem ideal. I do not kid you or anyone else when I say (and others) that college years are a world apart from primaire.

I guess it also comes down to where the kids previous school was in the UK (where?) ours were at a fairly good school, strict and had a very scholastic you will learn attitude. So coming here was no different, other than the strictness got stronger and help got less.

Holidays cannot prepare kids for living here, other than having a use to learn a bit of the language but many don't,  no more than it can for adults. They are completely and utterley different it is one of the things that people make the rror of thinking will happen when they move here, one long holiday, then whoops, reality kicks in with a big bang......

Whatever you do, don't hold your breath about the French reverting to English, that will never happen and as for guessing what the kids will do, that is pretty much the norm for families that bring their kids here. I don't in anyway say it is you but, many give no thought to that vital part of the move, they are more interested in how their lives will be and then get really p----d off when they find that the damned "Frenchies" will not give extra assistance to their little ones.

All this should be planned beforehand, or one simply has to accept what life brings you here just don't think it is better than all English schools because it is certainly not.

 

[Dick Smith]

Just to correct Outcast's post (and as I said in a previous post) none of the school's 'standard' budget would go on teaching 'muslim kids' (sic) English, as Section 11 money and later the EMAG grant was and is separate from school pupil-led funding. Even when this changes in 2006 there will be 'notional budgeting for these activities. What I have been unable to discover is whether or not there are any similar arrangements in France. I suspect that there are, but that these apply in inner-city schools, not rural areas, and of course we don't know where Outcast lives.

[Dick Smith]

Gay, you say

>While I see the 'argument' and have some sympathy for it, it would seem an odd stance from a government that insists on making every one equal even at the risk of offending huge religious groups.

It's a different thing, surely. The state/religion argument is fundamental, and they aren't so much making everyone equal as making everyone toe the same line.

>The English immigrants *should* be treated the same as the other non French speaking immigrants, from their own colonies or not. Too much to expect ?

A numbers/dangers game. I'm pretty sure that most immigrants from the former colonies already speak French, so don't need much language teaching although they may need their language skills improved. Thereafter I'm also pretty sure that the maires of new towns with growing social problems would have a very loud shout for any funding that is going, in an attempt to keep a lid on. The 4 English people in P'titville l'Eglise aren't going to riot or burn down the mairie (probably).

[Cjb]

I've  been in France for 18 months and I have to admit that Miki and Saligo Bay had it spot on, with regards to the reality of life in France. They were right, my perceptions have changed. The problem with teachers in France is that they fall under the title of "Functionnaire", which seems to mean, I've passed the concours, I've got a job for life and the quality of life for teachers is far more important than that of my pupils.

O.K, such children require extra funding and resources, but most importantly of all it requires teachers that are prepared to give their upmost for every single child in their class, regardless of where they come from.

[Miki]

Cjb,

It is difficult for those of us who have been here a while to explain sometimes to some newcomers and often we either lose our rag, so to speak, or just have to let it drift due to the argument going nowhere and becoming rather confused in the end.

This has happened on more than a few occasions and your post tells me that you have taken the time to stand back, look and listen and comprehend at close quarters (especially with your job) just how it really is. Bravo for admitting it Cjb.

Not because one wants to glorify, rub noses in the proverbial or even say "I told you so", no,  far from it that really doesn't enter in to it but, it shows that anyone who has reason to live, work and play here, will find out in the end the reality of how it is and some of us were not just saying it to be cantankerous. I felt that once I accepted my surroundings and my life here, I began to be more concerned about the way it was and why.

The rose tinted glasses (isn't that a horrible cliché but don't know another !) came off and I found myself questioning the way it was at the kids schooling and then finding out more and more about the teachers and the schools attitude not just to our kids but to all kids. Their teachers in CM1 & 2 were pretty good but once they went to college it all seemed to change and sadly, I found myself being quite angry at times at the sheer stupidity of certain matters. Whereas many French just accepted it but then it was a pretty rural area and I truly thought that made a heck of a difference. Then we hit town !! and it just meant more of the same but slightly better.

Her Lycée in Saint Malo is pretty much in line with Uni in the UK and the teachers are pretty much with the pupils but then they are 19 plus but it is still be told and learn, although there, she has the ear of one teacher who has been pretty good with her gestion compatabilité problems. 

Sorry, better stop now, I am even boring myself !!