To those worried about education...

[BJSLIV]

Watching PPDA each night I was convinced that France does rule the planet.

Are you saying that I shouldn't believe everything I see on TV?.

I suppose that  the next thing we know, you will be saying that all those moving to France programmes don't tell the truth.

Oh dear you already have!

Now I'm really worried.

[SaligoBay]

Here are a couple of things from various horses mouths (via me, obviously!) about French schools.

They're NOT scaremongering, they're just little examples of the messages WE get in the French system, and how different they are from the messages people in Britain get.

As TU said, it's easy to say that the French system is "better", more traditional, teaches respect, etc. 

But inside it, the messages are more like this:

I worked in X Collège for 15 years, and you could see the difference in the pupils over that time.  At the beginning they were polite, but by the end, the children that were coming through were a bit more******, bit more arrogant, doing things like opening doors with a kick, things like that.

About problems in my son's 6eme class (age 11):   A few years ago, I never saw this kind of behaviour in 6eme.   These problems never appeared till 4eme or 3eme, 6eme was a relatively "innocent" year, but not any more.

By the time they leave collège (at 16?), 80 or 90% of the pupils will have smoked at least one joint.

And from the news the other night, 150 000 youngsters leave French schools every year with no qualifications whatsoever.

What can I say - this is just normal, everyday stuff!  None of it's sensational, none of it's moaning, it's just all perfectly normal!  Add to that the education cuts (remember last year's strikes?), normal amounts of petty theft, bullying, graffiti, etc, and it all adds up to emmm, what, well, just Real Life, I suppose.  And in fact, it sounds from here as if it's getting, shock horror, more like Britain as the years go by.

The GOOD news is that many problems are at least being aired now, like bullying, or integration of children who used to be put in special schools, etc.  It's a matter of luck how your local school will deal with it, and looking round, I can see it's still far from ideal, and I'm VERY glad I don't have a child with dyslexia or any other special needs.

It's also pointless to ask us why we stay in France, if we "complain" about so much.  If everyone who had a complaint about education was to leave France, the country would be empty.       

[Richardbk]

I have generally agreed with your sentiments on French schooling and it's many faults and downfalls but the "age thing" you say should be 7-8, I have to disagree with.

 No, I would certainly say from experience, around 10 would be best for the average child.

This is an interesting angle - linguistically , both in terms of reading and speaking, 7-8 is considered the maximum age for efficient learning of another language, there are a number of studies into this - Birmingham uni (if I remember) has done a lot on this, although of course some kids are better/worse. After around this age the brain starts to function like an adult , and the way the langauge is absorbed starts to become more difficult for the child. This would mean of course that integration and communication into the class/school is much easier up to this age.

What you are suggesting is that at 10 they have a better grasp of langauge fundamentals and thus can handle the grammar / writing better. This may be true, but for most of our experiences I would say that 10 is too old, because this is overridden by another  issue. Between around 9-11 children start to become much more self conscious and self aware and this coupled with the poor communication tends to leads to poor integration -leading of course to poor results. In addition at 10 they are close to the end of primary, and the jump from primary in the French system is a big shock as the system moves from rote learning to rote+keep-up-with-me-if-you-can.

I'll stick with the 7-8 but will agree that for a few the maximum age could be older.

regs

Richard

 

 

 

[Val_2]

When we first started out here in France with primary education I couldn't praise it enough even though no special help was given to two foreign kids who spoke not a word of french. Next came collège,again not a bad system but the cracks started to appear in the attitude of the staff not just towards my own kids,but in general and I was quite surprised how they didn't seem as dedicated as their english counterparts in that once the school day ended,theirs ended too and yes, there were one or two exceptions to this but only a couple. Now it's Lycée and there are many faults in this system which are coming to light,especially in the large public ones for 16-18 year olds and to be honest I sometimes fear for my son as some of his teachers are really downright nasty and spiteful and dish out punishment without a care. On the other hand, my daughter in higher education as a specialist Lycée for her profession just can't praise the staff high enough. So for all the good and bad, I just don't think you can make a fair comparison between different counties and their systems,it's a case of the devil you know and why should they change it.

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

The shortcomings of the French education system may inspire gloom but they are a real concern for anyone living in France. There is a will to change but in the meantime the system not only fails to bring out many pupils' potential, it also fails to teach people to "learn to learn" and the workforce is therefore inflexible and difficult to retrain - it is a real problem and a major concern of French people; surely it is inevitable (not to mention right and proper) that this is reflected by the forum?

[Brumble]

I have 2 weeks now until i test out the french education system.  I'm in 2 minds what to think.  Our children are 10, 7 and 3 and a half.  I was shocked to hear that up to the age of 5 children are made to have an afternoon nap!  My youngest hasn't slept during the day for 2 years and i can't see her doing it now.  This is just the start at learning how differently things are obviousley done in France.  The first of many no doubt.  But hey chin up, we plod on and still hope for the best  

[Mistral]

I was shocked to hear that up to the age of 5 children are made to have an afternoon nap!  My youngest hasn't slept during the day for 2 years and i can't see her doing it now. 

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Most maternelles have a "sieste" time for the younger ones, i.e. 2/3 year olds but if they don't generally sleep then they are usually put together with others who don't nap either until the rest are awake. The school day is long here, so it gives them a break at that age. I have friends with children who never sleep at home but sleep at school because they follow the others.

Each of my children (the same age as yours) stayed at the childminder's for the afternoon in petite section and then stayed at school in moyenne and grande, they never had a nap in those classes although I think it was possible for the gros dormeurs

[Brumble]

Thanks, thats another small concern off my mind.  SORRY about all the posts, not sure what happened there! 

[Teamedup]

Brumble, just bring the page up and go to edit on one of your extra postings and you can delete it.

[Eskenazi]

Just caught up with this one & oh dear, oh dear, almost

wept with laughter at the one about '80% of kids in France

will have smoked a joint by 16...' and '150,000 kids in France

will leave school without any qualifications...'

Please, tell me what is so shocking if 80% have smoked a

joint by 16? In UK I would imagine it is at least 90, and

as for US... as for 150,000 in France a year, leaving with

no qualifications, you'd get that many in the same boat from

a single UK county!

[SaligoBay]

Yes, I know that everything about Britain is worse than it is everywhere else in the known universe! 

But the point is, there was a time when Britain had "only" 80% teenage joint-smokers.  There was a time when Britain had "only" 11% of its population obese.

France is catching up with Britain very fast in many many ways.  Education cuts, health cuts, delinquence, privatisation, obesity, the gap between the two countries is narrowing.

Perhaps if people had taken these things seriously when they were at lower levels in Britain, it wouldn't be in the state it is now (whatever that is). 

[Tourangelle]

I completely agree.  I think there is far too much handwringing going on, there are loads of great things here.  I would hate France to catch up with Britain in terms of public transport. To come back to education, the voactional education here seems great, BTS and so on, that's a real gap in Britain as far as I can tell

Jane

[Izz.]

I agree with you 2!

[Sarnia]

Hi folks

Could someone please answer me a general question?

If my child does well at a French school - and decides to enter a French uni - what sort of fees would they pay?  Similarly if he opted for an English uni - would we pay the "International Fee" structure, or would he be deemed still British (by reason of birth in the CI) and therefore eligible for some sort of grant?

Thanks very much!

 

[chicfille]

Sarnia,

EU students pay the same fees at UK universities as UK students. See http://www.educationuk.org/eu_faqs for lots of useful advice, including financial help. Your status as "home" or "EU student" is determined by your place of residence in the 3 years previous to uni entry, not your nationality, it seems.

Fees at French universities are low - you pay "frais de scolarité" when you enrol at the beginning of the year which are currently between 150 and 250 euros. They are cheap but very overcrowded and consequently have high drop-out and failure rates. Other further education institutions (IUTs, "grandes écoles", etc) are different - competitive entry, higher fees, but lower drop-out/failure rates and much better job prospects afterwards.

 

 

[Teamedup]

Sarnia, yes fees would be the same as Uk students. The difference would be that student loans etc are only given for kids who have had UK residence for the three years prior to them entering Uni. Therefore you would have to pay for everything rather than your child taking responsibility for the future payment of their time at uni.

[juxtapose]

Well, I have got to send some good news to those of you in England who are thinking of moving here!

We have been here 18 months now and our children were 11 and 14 at the time! We were very concerned for our 14 year old as we thought we had left it too late to uproot her, but it was a case of move then, or not at all! The idea was that if she really struggled at school, we would move back to England after 12 months.

They said that they understood nothing at all, in the classroom for 3 months, but after this, they started to understand their school work and by the end of the school year were average with their french peers! Now, 18 months later, they are fluent in French, doing extremely well at school, and we have no regrets at all!

We feel that our children have gained a lot more from their new lives here than they would have done by staying in England.

Regarding an earlier post about the perfect age to bring a child here, I was going to say probably maximum 10. But, my children have proved this incorrect. They are by no means hyper intelligent. I would say they were bright, average kids in England and if you feel that your children can also cope with change and want to learn, they will!

In either country it depends on the individual school and teachers, ours are marvellous, extra French lessons and lots of help when needed! They also had a marvellous school in England, so maybe we have been very lucky!

Bonne Chance

[Fil]

Hi,

just want to agree with the last posting.  My son was 13 and a half when he got here, and now is 16, doing very well at school and really happy.  Prefers french school because it is more structured and he feels he knows where he stands.  Likes all the testing.  Comes rushing home to tell me his good marks etc, much more conscientious and proud than he ever was in his UK comprehensive. 

Might not suit every child, but suits him fine.  Little one aged four now fluent too, but quite different for him.  Although he has an english accent because I read to him every day in French and he has picked up my accent. 

Mind you, I think having fluent parents helps kids alot because they can ask for parental help then. 

Fil

[Teamedup]

The problem is that your good news won't help anyone else who finds themselves in the mire.

Me and others have never said that all kids that come will fail. We know what sort of kids do well. It becomes very obvious very quickly.  

And those averages mentioned. What did the conseil de classe minutes say about the class, good averages in the class? poor averages? not all classes are the same. And your child's average will be on the trimestrial report. I most certainly know what sort of averages will have the profs' heads' held high almost preening themselves and those averages where they look like they stood in something not nice and the air of distaste shows. There is also the head shaking to add to that. I remember the conseil de classe well.

 

[Miki]

.....We feel that our children have gained a lot more from their new lives here than they would have done by staying in England

OK, that is fine for now and I would hazard a guess that most of us felt like that for a few years and I am happy for you, why not ?

Now the only point to me about whether it is worth living here or not with children, is how they will fare during/after college and then on to Lycée to try and gain their Bac, then on to Uni or carry on through pro school, then the real tough part, not to say, getting through college and Lycée is a picnic of course 'cos they most certainly are not but what do you expect them to do after all the education is finished ?

This is the most vital of all things that new immigrants should be thinking about, do folks think that we all joke about just how tough it is for school leavers then ? The French we had dinner with last night are so pissed off with it all that their parents are looking to go to the UK, as they fear for their childrens future, that's not a joke, that is deadly serious.

Our daughter is doing a very difficult 2 year course now to go with her Bac and we are still worried as to whether she will be able to get a job at the end of it. I suspect she also silently fears for what she may do when the 2 years are over.  I know we do, we have had one son go back, apart from seasonal work, there was literally nothing for him around here. Anything going will most certainly be given to nationals, that much we observe at first hand, over and over.

Before anyone says it is not easy in the UK, well multiply that by 10 and you will be getting close to the problem here in most parts of France.

For an idea, go to the Brittany Ferries site and just see how a Bac plus 2 is required to serve teas and coffees on board their new fastcraft service and then just think what a kid needs to be able to do the same on a Saturday in Tescos.

 

[cary]

I have been here near one 2 months now, my children are 7, 10 and 3 and a half.  At the moment they are doing really well in school, have settled and made alot of french friends.  My youngest comes home and sings french songs, although she doesn't yet know what they mean but its a start.  Yes maybe in the future they will struggle and like many french kids not be able to get work but at least they have an english back-ground also which gives them the opportunity to get work in England if they wish and they will be bilingual which most englkish children educated in the UK are definatley not!  It has to be down to the individual and also the help and encouragement of the parents.  Believe me putting children through school in england is not all that now, most of the teachers can't control the children, are not aloud to even point at them let alone touch them in anyway and alot of the children know this and take advantage.  At our old school we had a hugh problem with headlice and the school was not allowed to provide a nit nurse at it was seen as abuse!  Well if you'de seen the headlice the children in this one family had you would not believe it.  Anyway upwards and onwards we'll all learn by our experiences and mistakes, lets hope this turns out to be an enjoyable and positive experience for us who are just starting out.  HI FIL by the way.  keep meaning to E mail you havn't had time.  Drop me a line let me know how you are.

Cary

[juxtapose]

Well, cannot really agree with the last posting as I think "what is deadly serious, and not a joke "was our  childrens "future " in England!

I do not "expect" anything from my kids, except to become kind, happy, respectful  individuals.

If they were educated in England, they were hoping to travel extensively anyway, so why do they have to be employed here in France?

Still think that by being educated here, learning a new culture, etc, their lives have become more fulfilled.

[Miki]

I do not "expect" anything from my kids, except to become kind, happy, respectful  individuals

Good for you if that is all you desire from them but we personally were hoping that education ought to be top of the pile and still end up like the above but ....

If they were educated in England, they were hoping to travel extensively anyway, so why do they have to be employed here in France?

Oh come on, travel already sorted out and what they are going to do ? yes ? Well my plane left without me having never learned the controls and the train was never driven either. It's very short sighted to educate them here then hope they will get employed in the UK. There are a few problems with that, sufficient help in the UK, sufficient funds to go back and still you have to find work in the area you can find housing which everyone says is dire, so....

Been there with the after education episode and it ain't easy, work can be found back in the UK but unless you can fulfil the above criteria, money, support, housing the hassles are awful. Is that a real alternative ? Good for you if you have the finance and the other needs but many will not have.

Still think that by being educated here, learning a new culture, etc, their lives have become more fulfilled.

I don't know at what stage your kids are, can you say ? I agree that some lives can be fulfilled by the experience but I have seen several cases where lives have been destroyed by thinking along the same lines, it is not all things to all men here, not by a long chalk. All this talk of fulfilment often comes with a high price to pay for a lot of families.

The UK is cluttered with plenty of families that had to return and who were absolutely devastated by the way things turned out for the family.

edit.

I see from another post you have been here 18 months and the kids were 11 & 14 when you arrived. I would say to be honest, the elder one will find it pretty tough to get through it all, unless he is at a highly paid school ? Sorry but I would question the wisdom of bringing him here but that is a personal opinion and I have read of one or two that have made it through (ish), how far is never reported though as the track record of many kids is pretty thin on the ground.

I only know of a few others on here whose kids have actually got through Lycée and have gone on to further education, I know of no others that have gone out to work in a decent job with a French firm. I know of two who have had kids return to the UK to work. But I do know of umpteen French kids who just sit and twiddle their fingers still looking for work and sad is not the word for them, it is deplorable.

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

 

I have ALWAYS said that bright kids who fit into the system do well. And that they come here or are here, well it is just comme ça.

But if any one expects me to believe that most of the children that come here do exceedingly well........... well the other one has bell's on. Quite simply, I do not believe.

And certain of the comments I have seen on this thread and the board recently, well, I could start a new thread about everyone of them and if you don't know what I'm talking about, tant pis.

 

 

[chicfille]

The only way children of immigrant families can become completely bilingual is if they keep learning their mother tongue, and by that I mean the written form. Even if British children survive the French education system and decide to go to the UK to university or to look for work, they won't get very far if they can't write reasonably correct English. I try to do some English with mine, but on top of their long days and endless homework it's almost impossible.

My definition of a successful education is one that creates a balanced adult with a lifelong love of learning and provides decent prospects for the future. How I can go about educating my children with this aim is my dilemma! The UK system certainly encourages children to think for themselves but does not seem to cover enough actual learning, and the French system does the opposite.

Any suggestions, anyone?