daughter/schools

[neil&kay]

We are new to this forum, but would welcome advice or comments from anyone in or who has been in a  similar position regarding the above. We are re-locating to the Tarn region of the Midi Pyrenees late 2005 - early 2006. We have a daughter who will be 14+ when we take the plunge. She is reluctant, for various reasons,  (leaving friends behind, finding new friends, how  will effect her education and coping with a new language all at the same time.) We have read most of the articles on this topic. I suppose we are looking for some re-assurrance. 

[Teamedup]

What counts here is what year she was born in rather than 14+. If she was born in 1990 then really she should be going up into lycee or a professional lycee, 1991 and she should be in her last year of college. Likely she will be held back at least a year anyway.

I take it that she is already having intensive french lessons.

[Fantine<br><br><br><br>Susie]

I'm sorry that this is going to sound negative; but unless your daughter already speaks French well or has the ability to pick it up very quickly, it will be very tough for her. Is it not possible that you could wait a couple of years until she has finished school. What is her career plan, if she has one, unemployment is over 10% in France and it would be difficult to find a job.

We know of a 13 year old who recently moved over and is struggling enormously and wants to go back - it's early days yet, but I wouldn't put a child of that age who is already going through the 'trauma' of puberty, through that experience.

[Deby]

Welcome to the Forum.

I trust you have read through the Education topic here and seen lots of strong comments. 

When you ask for re-assurance, are you seeking for someone to say it is alright to bring your 14+ year old to France and tell you that she will be fine.  Unfortunately, I cannot offer you this and it is unlikely many people who have experienced similar situations would say yes it is fine.  Please dont be misguided by friends or family who know little and say, I'm sure it will be fine lots of children do it. 

I really do not want to be mean and do not be put off especially as this is your first post I am only trying to give you some sound advice and of course my opinion.

It will be very hard and distressing for your daughter at such a crucial time in her life.

I hope you continue to post on this subject and ask away as this really is a useful forum and subject topic.

Deby 

[Battypuss]

I don't agree with being negative, 14 year old girls can manage that all on their own! It depends on the child concerned; some will thrive, others will not. One benefit of French education (though not at all ages and not in all cases, and it drives me nuts sometimes) is that it is highly regimented. Thus you know where you do, or don't stand.

If you have made your minds up, go for it. Teenagers can be a pain in the backside wherever they are (I speak from experience here AND live in France). You won't know until you try, and if you don't try, you'll kick yourselves in years to come.

Learning experiences are not all found in school, in my opinion

 

[benson]

Hello and welcome

Some replies will be positive others negative.

we do not live in the area that you are moving but we have friends who live near us with a daughter who was just coming up 14 when they relocated she was extremely shy and nervous and the prospect of entering college in a foreign country and didn't speak any french at all.

Now just a few months down the line she is doing well very happy and intergrated the school had a few other english pupils and also gave extra french lessons.

There are still a few 'moments' when she doesn't want to go but the biggest problem is with the parents struggling to help with homework!!!!!

Once again every child is different.  good luck

[Val_2]

Personally I would never bring a child of that age to start again in a foreign country unless they were going into a private international school. In less than two years time she will have to make an important decision that will affect the rest of her life by choosing the preferred Lycée course that she wishes to follow and as all the other parents on here with kids over 16 will know,Lycée is very very hard and in a lot of depts very competitive with limited placings on the most popular courses. I do not understand why british people uproot their children at this stage when their O'Levels or whatever they are called now are so close. Why not wait a couple of years and get them out of the way first or is the move purely for your own dreams and not for the wellbeing of the child in question. I'm sorry you won't like my reply but having had kids go right through the french system I know what you will have to face and without the previous years' education in France,it will be very hard and at the end of it,what work or career will your daughter be qualified for?

[Battypuss]

I changed careers after 15 years in one, then again about 5 years ago. Choice is always available, you don't need to choose at 16, in my opinion. One daughter did, followed in my tracks. Knowledge is out there; one merely has to to seek it when and IF one wants.

Neither the Bac not GCSE/A Levels are necessarily an answer.

You don't need an International school in my opinion either, but then I couldn't afford one anyway. And even if I could, I wouldn't! I got sent to one....................

 

[Teamedup]

Ah Battypuss, so tell me, was it really easy to get a well paid, interesting good job. Because if you have found it so, I really think that we should be announcing it from the roof tops and I too will join in in the celebrations.

 

[Val_2]

I would like to know too. There are many highly qualified people living round me here who work for the SMIC in tomato greenhouses,hotels or in the oyster beds because there is absolutely nothing out there for them. My neighbour's 22 year old daughter with all her qualifications in microbiology has had to go to a french dependence off Newfoundland to take up a job after searching all over the country for the same here. Qualifications are the be all and end all for youngsters nowadays in France if they want a future as unemployment is steadily rising especially in rural areas. You can't even work holidays in the local supermarket without a BAC or as a skivvy on Brittany Ferries.

[Richardbk]

I am afraid that at 14+ the odds are stacked against you. Depending on where you are exactly in the Tarn , there is the International (British School) in Toulouse(Colombiers). I have accounts that its OK, (i.e not brilliant) but I think this would be a better solution that trying to put her into the French system at this age.

regs

Richard

 

[Ormx]

Every child is different. 14 is a difficult age. If it's your dream you should follow it because there'll always be another excuse to wait if you don't.

I went to France when I was 15 for a 3-week exchange with a pen-pal and went with her to school for the last day of term. Hardly long enough to form an opinion I hear you shout - it was miserable, I hated everything about it, but it made me grow up and I learned a lot.

I went to teach English in a lycee in Nantes. I was just a few years older than my pupils at the time. I was amazed at their maturity, the variety of subjects they learned, their plans for the future. And they weren't miserable with the amount of homework they got either. I hope my kids are like that when they're that age.

I sometimes watch teenages in restaurants and the way the interact with one another. They're actually able to converse with the opposite sex in front of their parents, far cry from the sniggering we did as teenagers.

We moved to Gers last July and kids 4 and 2 are in local maternelle. They love it. They will be able to choose from a variety of subjects and specialise in what they are good at. If they are not academically inclined they can choose to go to the local lycee agricole or whatever. And not feel like a drop out or a failure. It's just another path and one to be proud of.

Your child will enter this system with a disadvantage or two that may need a year to sort out. She may do her bac later than she would have, but so what. As for unemployment, what's that got to do with it? There was no employment in Ireland when I left school, or college, so I emigrated and got loads of experience and went back, and guess what, there's lots of jobs there now and I don't want to live there.

OK time to stop waffling. If it feels right, do it and keep your child involved at every stage. And stay positive.

[Richardbk]

Putting your kids of 4 and 2 into maternelle can not be compared with putting a child of 14 into Lycee or College. At 14 the language will be only one of the major obstacles the 2nd is the French system itself and the 3rd is that this is an age when teenagers are entering a period of emotional and hormonal turmoil. Of course each one is different ; they will sink or swim , but from my experience of many of my work collegues(from various EU countries) is that the majority will not swim. By all means stay positive, but the odds are not good, so but make sure you have a fallback plan it is doesn't work out.

regs
Richard 

[SaligoBay]

Before we descend into another bar-room brawl about France v UK education, does no-one have any "facts" that might be useful to someone considering this move?

For example (and I stand to be corrected)...... if you've been out of the UK for 3 years you lose any rights to help with university tuition.   This could put paid to vague ideas of "she can do her secondary ed in France then go back to the UK for university".   Or whatever.

Just a thought. 

[Lesbatees]

I'm not sure it is right to dismiss your daughter's concerns as just teenage negativity. Yes, they can be bloody negative at times, but it sounds to me as if your daughter is airing some legitimate concerns here, and you obviously have your doubts, or you wouldn't be asking the question.

It's not just a matter of education, either. I'm an adult (supposedly), and I was really committed to our move, but during the first 6-9 months I found myself missing friends and familiar places very badly. As you struggle with a new language and and unfamiliar customs the sense of isolation can be very acute indeed, even if, like us, you have made some very good friends and have helpful and friendly neighbours.

What it comes down to is this - are you so set on this move that you would do it even if your daughter were to be deeply unhappy?

Val

[Deby]

Putting your kids of 4 and 2 into maternelle can not be compared with putting a child of 14 into Lycee or College. At 14 the language will be only one of the major obstacles the 2nd is the French system itself and the 3rd is that this is an age when teenagers are entering a period of emotional and hormonal turmoil. Of course each one is different ; they will sink or swim

Couldnt agree with you more Richardbk.

I have two children in maternelle 3 and 6 - Petite & Grande sections.  It is not the same as Lycee.

I think the maternelle system  on the whole very good - the Petite, Moyen sections in particular.

However, I can see from CP onwards how it is and it changes dramatically. It will be interesting to see Ormx's viewpoint in a few years' time.  I don't want to appear to be antagonistic here.  Initially I thought the french system was better, wonderful and the like, time and experience has shown me different.  I have taught in several french schools so I feel I can make an informed comment on this.

Deby

[Hoddy]

Without knowing the individual concerned it is difficult to advise, however, if your daughter is already reluctant to move you may have a very serious problem here. Children's dreams for themselves and their parents' dreams for them often don't coincide.

Val_2 suggested waiting a while. I'd like to endorse that suggestion. If your present plan is to move in January 2006 you would only have to wait another eighteen months for your daughter to complete her GCSEs.

Saligo Bay suggested that we offer you some facts - here's one - if at some point in the future your daughter wishes to return to English education, perhaps to do A levels, she will find it much easier if she has a decent set of GCSEs to show.

Hoddy

[Jo53]

Within a year, after the initial very considerable trauma of being put in a school where she cannot understand anything or communicate meaningfully with anyone, your daughter may be chatting away in French and have made some friends. I get the impression that this is some people's definition of 'doing fine'. But there is an enormous difference between that and being able to conduct a fairly advanced-level education - in history, geography, science and the rest - in the French language. Not just understanding the teacher well enough to pick up new and sometimes difficult concepts, but writing the essays. That is one heck of a tall order if you ask me. And then there's the French language work. French kids will have been working on verb conjugation, agreements etc since they were 7. She will be required to reach the same standard of written French in a very short time in order to pass the brevet at 15/16. I moved schools within the UK at 14 and suffered in some subjects through the change of syllabus. I cannot see how moving a child to a foreign country at this age can be anything other than a huge educational disadvantage.

[Val_2]

No one has mentioned the second language that collège kids have to do,namely german,spanish or latin for the sciences later on. This is also transferred to Lycée in most courses to gain extra pass points for the BAC and is usually compulsory. How on earth is a 14year old going to cope with being already at least three years behind the others in yet another foreign language? When my kids moved onto Collège they had their english to learn,improve their french,spanish from scratch and Breton also,it was not an easy time but they came through it as it was in their Brêvet exams.

[Battypuss]

I'm sorry if I annoy you all, but I stick by my first point. Every child is different and a strong family is going to be vital with a teenager whether you live in England, France or Tibet. GSCE's can be done by mail order these days, I don't have the access right now, but the British Consulate can no doubt point you in the right direction.

I was stuck in a very expensive International school (my father thought it better for me than traipsing round the globe with him) and I hated it. I passed 12 'O' levels, all except one (German) at A grade and fled into the night....literally. They found me in Istanbul.

I attended College in Turkey, passed 5 A levels by post/going to Ankara and have never used ONE of them since. Also won a scholarship to Harvard, which I politely declined. I spoke very little Turkish.

I now have a BSc (Masters) degree in Building Engineering to add to the stack. Any use? No. Not after I broke my back.

Who can determine your path in life?

If you have a fall back plan, as someone else mentioned, follow your hopes and dreams.

14 is no age to be making plans for the rest of your existence.

There are plenty of apprenticeships and new schemes to employ people here in France. Visit Bourse emploi for a few examples.

[Lilly]

We have a son who is 14 he moved here last April we did this in a couple of stages and tried to time it so that he had a (get to know where the loo is)time before starting a new term afresh. He had a smuttering of French, he now since Christmas has 5 hours extra French per week outside school including 2 hours intense French grammer.

He made friends quickly and I was astonished at how a few lads seemed to take him under their wing immediatly so not alone at breaks etc and I'm talking French lads!! The school is big with over 1200 pupils, bigger than in his UK school.

He now has pretty good spoken French and can converse easily, he works very hard at writing and reading could do with more practice at home but with returning home quite late and these extra lessons not alot of time for more. He is getting good grades in the technical subjects and sciences but poor grades in Maths, French and Music and not enough work handed in for Art!!

He was in the top groups for these subjects in England, but Maths has alot of unique vocabulary at this stage not just equations or numerical problems and this is what is proving to be so hard.We think he is going to redouble this year which I am both pleased and at the same time disapointed about, but I do truly feel that it will give him a good chance to get the best result he can in his Brevy. We have a friend who moved here at a slightly later stage than us with a daughter who has not been redoubled and has sailed through her education here, has gone on to the Lycee and wants to study Law (French of course)I think that is both sides of the story and either way it is going to be very hard but in my opinion it matters a great deal why you are coming to France and what you are wanting to offer your children, I want my children to be well educated to be able to have options even if it takes slightly longer to get there, to be able to appreciate a life different to the mind set in the UK, I know its coming and is already here in the metropolis's but I hope that we can give then a head start on that and understand that there are different ways of conducting your life and make a choice.

We all have reasons why we come when we come and it is not always as cut and dry to wait for your child to be at the best age possible if you can wait, wait if you can't it will take alot from all of you but there are good things to achieve also. Good luck

[Teamedup]

And would that all children were that clever. And so dedicated to learning.

All those extra hours, my kids could not have coped with it and would not have wanted to cope with it. There again they aren't 'that' clever either.

[AnnH]

I tend to agree with Battypuss, family strength, ambition and outlook on life play almost as much a part as ability to learn.  We moved here just 3 months ago with a 13 (nearly 14 year old girl) and her brother 10 (nearly 11).  Our daughter did not want to leave UK mainly because of friends, she still misses them dreadfully but keeps in contact via internet and phone.  We initially chose a French school outside our area because it appeared to offer better help for English children, however after 2 weeks we moved her to our local school, she dropped back a year and is in a class with 1 other English speaking pupil.  She has extra French lessons in school and we also pay for 2 additional lessons outside of school.  She has made friends and is settling in well.  As she has dropped back a year she has covered a lot of the lessons in England and this allows her to concentrate on learning the French rather than the content, she is considered bright by her peers already.  Her French is improving all the time (more than she realises). There are times when we feel that perhaps we havn't done the right thing but life is too short for ifs and buts. Before we left we agreed to review everything at the end of a year, if all is not well we shall have to look at our options but I think if things keep going as they are we shall be staying.

Don't get me wrong there will be good days and bad days, only you can make the decision.  I used this forum before we made the move and it almost stopped us coming but I am glad we came.  I am not saying everything is roses but read between the lines of the doom mongers - some of them only seem to have bad things to say about anything, I am not sure why some of them still live in France.

[SaligoBay]

<<some of them only seem to have bad things to say about anything, I am not sure why some of them still live in France.>>

I'm sorry, but I don't like this kind of comment.  Who exactly is "some of them"?   As for why people stay anywhere, the fact that it's France is irrelevant.  A bit of humility will make you realise that not everyone has the financial or personal freedom to be able to move country willy-nilly.  Things can go wrong in France as well as they can go wrong anywhere else, that's all, and for some people they have, usually through no fault of their own.    You are extremely lucky that your children get extra French lessons in school, I've never heard of that round here.  Bet you don't have to pay for the school bus either - we do! 

These "bad things" you talk about are only a reflection of the lack of égalité in France as a whole, and that's not the fault of ANY person who posts on this forum.   

 

[Teamedup]

I'm afraid I've heard ' I don't know why you stay in France if you hate is so much etc etc blah di blah di blah ' so many times..........

Obviously there are some very bright kids coming over. Well, that is good for them. Too many french kids struggle with the education system, they struggle with their own written language, and they know how to speak it, they learn it from the craddle. And I'm not talking about thick kids here. Just average kids.

And if anyone thinks that those of us who are not completely besotted with the Education Nationale are not loving caring parents, who don't do the best for our kids, do us a favour. I'll say no more, the post would get pulled.