Home education

[Dick Smith]

Deby - yes, it is one of the most important variables in the UK. It isn't anything to do with the individual, but refers to the time spent in school.

If you were born on 29th August (as my no2 son was) you will be a year behind another child in your class born on 1st September in physical and emotional terms. They will do better than you will, in most cases. This difference is so large that it outweighs all others apart from ability and social class, more than gender, ethnicity and so on. The effects are long term, and do not disappear until postgraduate degree level. They are not just educational, but there are behavioural issues (youngest providing more problems).

This was first established, to my knowledge, by research done by the Inner London Education Authority in the 70s, and is now widely acknowledged in educational research and planning circles, but not so much in schools. I have recently done some stats analysis based on unpublished research by the DfES which shows this effect clearly in the identification of pupils as gifted and talented.

Obviously I have always had an interest in this as I have a son with a late August and another with an early October birthday - both were in the same academic year at school.

One simple recommendation I used to make was that teachers make their registers in age order rather than alphabetical.

Do you also have a personal interest?

[Deby]

Hello Dick,

Thanks for this.  I always believed that there has to be relevance. As I watch my children grow, I see so many different things about them which change month by month and certainly with my youngest week by week.

I am an end of July child, so in the UK I was one of the immaturist in my year, but felt that I always had to strive and work harder to be as equal to those who were born say before Christmas - the older ones so to speak.

Here in France my youngest son is born in December and is the youngest in his class.  I constantly have to remind his teacher that he is the youngest and there are huge differences between say that of a February born child.  He is still only 3, so how can he achieve the same levels as a 4 year old! There were several remplacements this year (3) for the teacher as she was on maternity leave, I explained so many times that my son is very young. It fell on deaf ears.

However, I have experienced in other french schools that they tend to seperate kids usually by age in the CP, CE1 classes - there are varying abilities within this group which is so often age driven.  Am not sure whether this is the case in the UK, I do not remember it being so.

Thank you Dick for your insight. 

Deby

[Teamedup]

In France there can be flexibility with this as parents can ask for a derogation. I've known children who are born in December be held back a year in maternelle, then making them the eldest in CP.

However I've also known children born in January who would normally be the eldest in their CP class and the parents have had them taken into CP a year earlier making them even younger than the youngest should be in the class. Without exception these 'year early' kids we know have all resat later, even the brightest of them.

[Debra]

I've really enjoyed reading this as so much of it is relevant to the experience I've had in the last few years.  I have three children, an 8 year old who is aged in the middle of her peers, a 7 year old who was born in early October so is the oldest in his class and a 5 year old who was born 27th August and so is the youngest in his class (and I hated sending him to school right from the start as he seemed far too young compared to the others - but I didn't actually know at the time that there was any choice in the matter). 

In Easter of this year I made the decision to remove all three of my children from our local village primary school.  Its supposedly a very good school - the main reason we chose to live here. 

However, I found that my daughter was suddenly having problems with reading and spelling (caused by the national curriculum methods and timescales of teaching reading and spelling which I have detailed on another post) and my youngest son was starting to show similar signs. This started me off looking into the way our schools are teaching these days. 

My middle son was bored and way ahead of his peers in literacy but hated maths and said he didn't like it when they had to do 'hard maths'.  My daughter expressed the same sentiments.  The teachers at the school actually use this phrase from year 2 onwards 'right, time for some hard maths'.  Obviously they didn't study much child psychology during teacher training!  Can you imagine the shutters coming down over their eyes?    My youngest said he didn't do maths yet, just 'addings'. 

When I looked at the way they were teaching maths (they were counting on using squares, not adding, and using calculators to do things they couldn't yet do manually) I realised that I wasn't happy with either the maths or literacy part of the National Curriculum.  That was after it took me some time to figure out what they were actually doing and what they were trying to teach by the methods they used.  There was only Science left - and they didn't seem to do enough of that for it to be a worry if they missed it for a while.

After trying hard to teach them out of school hours I realised it was unfair, too tiring for them, and continuing at school was unproductive because we were using opposing methods.  I looked at the National Curriculum for the whole of the primary years in both literacy and maths and decided that both areas were taught in a really odd way and I could cover what they did in primary school in at least a third of the time at home.

I waited until I was at a point in my career and finances where I could afford to give up work to bring my children up myself.  I had intended to return to work once my children were all at school if I could find a job which fit in with their school hours.  The head teacher at our school had advised me to apply for a job with the local education authority which would have fit in well with their school hours.  Returning to work would have given us more income to enjoy a better lifestyle, but we could afford to do without it if we lived simply.  (Does that make us middle class??)

The decision to home educate wasn't a financial one - it was simply made in the best interests of our children's education.  They have only been out of school since Easter but in that time we have met up with other home educating families from all walks of life and they all have one thing in common - that they want to give their children the best education they can and don't feel that the current schooling methods in the UK can help them to do this.  Some of the families had issues with bullying - which two of my children have experienced in certain degrees.  Some families have children with special needs which they feel can best be answered at home.  Mostly, people have a number of reasons for

[Deby]

However, if we send them to school in France and they have difficulties like they have experienced in the UK, we will consider home educating them again if it seems feasible. 

We have talked quite a bit about reading and writing on this Education topic.  The other thing I notice in the schools in France is they do not have a more rounded education and there seems to be no fun in learning.  It is all taken very seriously!  There is very little on world geography and history and science.  There are few practical exercises - things tend to be regurgitated out of books.  Schooling here is very fact based e.g. here are a bunch of facts, lets see what you know and can you repeat them.

I am talking Primaire (Primary).  Alot does depend on the Headmaster/Mistress.  I have experienced good ones and there is a huge difference and it is cascaded down throughout the school.  So when you end with a really terrible one, children and the school suffers.

Deby

[Debra]

Whereas in UK schools there seems to be a bit too much practical and skirting around real learning.  It sounds as if a school system inbetween that of France and the UK would be ideal! 

Debra

[Dick Smith]

I don't know what, if anything, the last post means, but the general criticism of the English education system is the exact opposite of what I take it to say, that education is practically rather then knowledge/fact based.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what 'real learning' comprises?

[gail17]

[quote]I don't know what, if anything, the last post means, but the general criticism of the English education system is the exact opposite of what I take it to say, that education is practically rather then...[/quote]

Hi

I too would be interested to know what you class as 'real learning' debra?

Gail

 

 

[Debra]

The criticisms about the French system (which I have no experience of yet) seem to be based around that they do a lot of rote learning whereas I found that the current ideas in UK schools are that rote learning is unfashionable and 'whole language' or 'whole maths' learning is in.  In practice this seems to mean they no longer get taught the basic skills I was taught at school which DID involve rote learning. 

Things like how to do basic arithmetic operations manually on paper (as opposed to on a PC spreadsheet or calculator) and how to spell and write using correct spelling skills or correct grammar.  Learning multiplication tables off by heart might have seemed boring at the time, but imagine trying to do long multiplication or division if you hadn't learned them?  Spelling and grammar might have seemed boring at the time but imagine being unable to write a letter without referring to a dictionary over and over again, assuming you had enough of an idea of how to spell a word to be capable of looking it up in a dictionary.

I've got examples of work from my children's files from school where various versions of incorrect maths answers have been ticked with a 'good' when either the working out is completely wrong but the answer is correct (because they've used an alternative method to work it out in their heads) or where the working out is correct but the answer is wrong.  There is nothing to explain that they went wrong somewhere along the line because apparently to be told they got something wrong might make them feel they are 'bad at maths'.  Meanwhile, they do think they are bad at maths regardless because they don't understand the roundabout ways that they are being taught to do simple arithmetic. 

In the same way, stories and reports are ticked and nothing is said about the appalling grammar or atrocious spelling in case it makes the children feel bad.  As long as the content is appropriate its ticked as 'good'.  Even when they do a spelling test, when they are tested on a list of 10 words given the previous week, what they do is get them to write a story using these words.  If they spell the 10 words incorrectly in the story then those words will get marked with red pen.  However, any other incorrect spellings are ignored as irrelevant.

It took me a while to go through the books and figure out what they were trying to get across in the work they were giving them.  Why don't they just teach them how to do it?  In frustration, I taught my daughter how to do column addition (not meant to do this until year 4) and she was jumping for joy because she understood it and wanted to rush to school to tell the teacher about her 'new easy way' to do addition and how she could add any numbers up - not just those up to 100.  Much easier than counting along a number square or in a test, when number squares weren't allowed, adding 44 to 36 by drawing 44 dots, then 36 dots, then counting them all up to arrive at the answer.

When asked what they do in literacy hour, my son told me that's when they prepare their write up on their Science project (which doesn't get marked for spelling or grammar because its about Science, so only the content is important). 

My daughter was very interested in her history project about the Victorians and was really excited about making some Victorian toys like she'd seen in the museum they went to for the school trip.  This arts and craft project was mentioned right from the start of the history project -  probably as an incentive to keep them interested, and it worked.  However, she came home upset one day because she'd been told they didn't have time to make toys now because they had to move onto the next subject.  Oh well, I said - perhaps the next subject will be just as interesting - what is it?  With a dramatic wail - "

[Dick Smith]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem to answer the question that Gail and I asked - what is 'real education'?

Do you really believe that skills aren't tested in GCSE? Have you discussed with teachers why they do what they do? You say that you are not an educationalist, but they are...

[Debra]

[quote]I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem to answer the question that Gail and I asked - what is 'real education'?Do you really believe that skills aren't tested in GCSE? Have you discussed with teachers why t...[/quote]

Sorry, I'll try again.  I guess to me real education for the primary years is teaching them the basic skills they need to go onto further study at secondary and higher level, thoroughly and efficiently and to automaticity so that a lack of these skills doesn't hamper them later on. This includes the basic literacy and numeracy skills as well as study and self discipline skills.

Yes, I've asked the teachers - the head teacher at my local school who recently left (with whom I had lots of discussion about their methods) and the recent replacement.  They both said they have to follow the national curriculum and the currently used methods.  They don't have much control over how and what they are allowed to teach (and the recent replacement finally admitted the teachers don't much like some of these methods themselves).  They do their best within the rules they have to follow.

An example is that I identified a problem with the reading scheme the school were using (over and above that it was a look say scheme: a problem that existed even if you accept that method as OK).  They acknowledged the problem but all they could do was report the problem to the publisher and ask them to do something about it.  They couldn't change reading schemes or divert the children to another at the point that the problem existed, but had to follow it and live with it until the publisher changed it.

I'm not sure if this is because they are contracted to that publisher and scheme, as happens in the US, or if its one that they are told to use from above - but to me it seemed the publisher had more control over my children's reading tuition than the teachers did.

Debra

[Debra]

Forgot; GCSE: I'm not an expert in these because I took GCE's and 16+ exams myself.  However, when I was discussing the whole literacy and numeracy subject with another parent (who also had problems with what was being taught) she told me she would love to home educate but didn't feel that her level of numeracy and literacy were up to it. 

She had passed GCSE's in both English and Maths (she's a fair bit younger than me) so this led to some discussion over what is tested in these exams.  She led me to believe that a lot of the marks towards them are based on course work (which might not necessarily be your own) and also that there is no longer a maths paper that tests arithmetic skills without the use of a calculator or an English Language paper that tests the use of correct grammar and spelling.  This is only what she told me about the exams she did at school and I haven't investigated further as my kids aren't there yet - so please don't slam me if its wrong!

Debra

[Debra]

Just a thought Dick - I hope you don't think I'm against teachers in any way.  I'm not, at all -  I helped out at  my local school and had nothing but admiration for the way they had to try and handle 30 kids at a time and try to direct their learning.  Since it seemed a career that would fit in well with my own children's 'hours of work' I had fully intended to become a teacher myself once all my children were at school full time. I had the option to embark on this new, second career but I decided to home educate my kids instead.  I did consider that I may be able to help change things from within - or help more of the kids that were having problems. 

However, I decided that I had to make my own children my priority and the only way I could see to do this was to home school.  In my experience all they seemed to learn at school was how to emulate the bad aspects of other children's behaviour and language and how to cope with the hurtful, frustrating or disappointing aspects of school life.  Rather than have my children crying because they didn't understand something and the teacher had promised to explain later - and didn't get the time - I decided to keep them at home, bring them up fully myself instead of letting other people take over for a good chunk of their lives, and give them one to three (or often two to three) attention instead of one to thirty. 

Their education is my responsibility and its my choice to home educate because I believe thats what is best for them at this time.  I believe the point of this thread is whether thats possible or perhaps wise when a parent takes the children to live in a different country with a different culture.  I'm not sure on that one myself, which is why I joined in this discussion.  The reason I'm reading this forum is to try and find out more about how the French education system works.  I wasn't happy with the UK system (sorry if that offends you) but I feel I ought to give the French system a chance before dismissing it and assuming I will continue to home educate in France.  Any advice or opinion on this is welcomed.

Debra

[Dick Smith]

What are you referring to as skills? Reading is a skill, surely? (at least the Department for Education and Skills thinks it is).

Are you referring to the National Literacy and Numeracy strategies? These are skill based.

The point about the reading scheme I simply don't understand. The teacher mediates the scheme, surely? So if there is a problem the teacher avoids it - or even better gets rid of the flawed scheme. Which scheme was it?

Look and Say is not flavour of the month at the moment, with synthetic phonics getting a lot of attention because according to recent research it works better. This is pretty old news, and again I am surprised that the school is persisting with it. Have you looked at the school's Ofsted report to see what inspectors think?

Coursework has been an issue and it has been addressed. It will shortly be all but phased out. I believe that you will find that GCSE Maths papers (and remember there are a number of examination boards and several levels of paper for each board) cover both aided and unaided arithmetic. But maths is not the same as arithmetic, and aids in the form of log tables and so on were always permitted.

If I might say so there is a good deal of hearsay and secondhand information in your posts. I'd be very worried if people took this as advice - you make a definitive statement about GCSE and then say 'forget it, I'm not an expert', then make it clear that your idea of being an expert would be to have taken it yourself! "She led me to believe" is a bit of a thin foundation to base your child's education upon.

Edit as our posts crossed - I don't mind in the least whether or not you like the education system in the UK. I would just ask you, as I did with BigJim and he answered with honesty - are you doing this for your kids or for yourself?

[Debra]

Skills - reading yes: look say may be on its way out but not in time for my kids, I'm afraid.  There have been a lot of documentaries on the subject since I took the kids out of school.  Things seem to move more slowly than you realise.  After all, Why Johnny Can't Read was published in 1955 I believe and yet US schools are still using look and say and still having the same problems.  Professor Orton proved that problems were caused by sight reading in 1917 (again, haven't checked that date - its from memory) and the late Romalda Spalding developed her method after working with him.  The reading area was the initial reason I started looking into what they were doing at school.  I had taught my eldest son to read phonetically but didn't have time to do this with my younger son (and wasn't there for my stepdaughter when she was first learning to read) and they both fell foul of the sight reading method.

Arithmetic (the mathematics they were covering at this stage): I had children in year 1, 2 and 3 who were all totally confused about what the national curriculum stated they were supposed to be able to understand at this stage and had become totally negative about doing 'hard maths' (what their teachers told them it was).  When I looked at the work they were doing at school I could understand why and in my opinion there were much simpler ways to teach them basic arithmetic skills.

Ofsted - when we moved here last year it was because of the school's Ofsted report.  It was the best school within a 30 mile radius of where we needed to live.  This changed this year apparently.

The reading scheme was ORT (am I allowed to say that?) and no, apparently the head teacher couldn't just stop using it.   I don't know why, because at a previous school when I asked if my eldest son could change from this one (when he first started school) he was immediately moved onto a Ginn scheme.  That school was a CofE school so maybe they have more scope to make decisions like this?

Maths - OK, we had 3 papers to do and the first was Arithmetic and calculators weren't allowed.  The other two papers we could use calculators.  I understood from the friend (sorry if she's not an expert after having done the exams) that calculators were allowed in the whole exam nowadays.  My experience is that my year 3 daughter was using a calculator to do addition, subtraction and multiplication and division.  Manually, she could add numbers up to 100 but only using a number square or by drawing dots and counting them - both of which methods are counting, rather than adding, as far as I can see.  She couldn't divide or multiply manually.  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

GCSE stuff - no, I'm not an expert.  I've clearly stated that my children are primary school age and its their education at this level that I'm taking responsibility for.  As far as my children are concerned they are going back to school when they are due to start secondary school.  Hopefully they will be better equipped to deal with the work at this level than if I had left them in primary school.  My comments are based on my experience with their primary education and that of friends children at only three schools in my area.  I also have discussed the same issues over and over with a lot of people from different areas who have experienced the same problems.

Am I doing this for my kids or myself?  I had a career break to be with my children full time until they were all at school full time.  This was extended a little longer than expected because of personal circumstances.  However, just prior to taking them out of school, I had fully intended returning to work in a career that would have fit in with my children's school hours.  I was looking forward to venturing out into the adult world of work again.  Fo

[Debra]

If I might say so there is a good deal of hearsay and secondhand information in your posts. I'd be very worried if people took this as advice - you make a definitive statement about GCSE and then say 'forget it, I'm not an expert', then make it clear that your idea of being an expert would be to have taken it yourself! "She led me to believe" is a bit of a thin foundation to base your child's education upon.

I've done a lot of research before I made my decision and discussed it with a lot of people; teachers and parents.   I'm trying to decide what to do about my children's education if we end up moving to France shortly (much sooner than expected earlier on in the year when I took them out of primary school here).  That's why I'm reading this forum and asking opinion's of people who have experience in France of both the state education system and home schooling.  Any replies could be considered as hearsay too, but it all adds to any other research I will do.  I've been looking at the French education sites but unfortunately my French is not good enough to follow them well.  Are you saying its not a good idea to ask these kind of questions on this forum or to give credence to any advice or opinions which might be expressed?

Debra

[Debra]

If I might say so there is a good deal of hearsay and secondhand information in your posts. I'd be very worried if people took this as advice

er - its me thats asking for advice........(about education in France.  The decision to avoid primary school in the UK for our children has already been made and is unshakeable).

[gail17]

[quote]Skills - reading yes: look say may be on its way out but not in time for my kids, I'm afraid. There have been a lot of documentaries on the subject since I took the kids out of school. Things seem t...[/quote]

Hi

Really surprised to hear of a 3 year old using a calculator, this is something that would not be touched on at our local primary schools.  Asking my 13 year old at secondary school how often is uses a calculator in a maths lesson he reminded me that they do not use them in lessons apart from checking their work on the rare occasion.  He is actually covering the topics in maths now that I did at 15 prior to just sitting my O'Level, happily I'm finding that he is leaps and bounds ahead of me.

Gail

 

[Debra]

Feeling ever so slightly attacked, I just went back and read this thread to see why I joined in this discussion.  It was because I was amused at the opinions expressed about the type of people who home educate (so I tried to give a sense of who I am and my reasons, ie possibly not middle class carob eating whatever) and also that I identified with the comment about birthdays having an effect on education - having children born March 10th, October 2nd and August 27th and noticing the differences on how they fit into their various classes.  I really didn't mean to get into a debate about whether one should home educate or not or whether the UK education system is currently acceptable, but I guess some people feel so strongly about it that its inevitable.  What I'm really interested in here is poeple's opinions on the education system in France and whether home educating is a viable option for English kids moving to France during their primary years. BigJimBishop seems to feel it is - so now I'm off to search his posts on the subject and get some insight (hearsay being my best source of info at the moment!)

Debra

[Debra]

[quote]Hi Really surprised to hear of a 3 year old using a calculator, this is something that would not be touched on at our local primary schools. Asking my 13 year old at secondary school how often is us...[/quote]

Hi Gail,

My daughter isn't 3, but Year 3 primary - she is 8 years old.  My 7 and 5 year old aren't using calculators yet.  Your son's school doesn't sound like our local schools so perhaps if we don't move to France soon a change of area in the UK is called for!  Your post gives me more confidence about the secondary schooling in the UK (which I never intended avoiding anyway).  If there are any problems, hopefully they will be ironed out before my kids get there (assuming we're still here).

Debra

[gail17]

[quote]Hi Gail, My daughter isn't 3, but Year 3 primary - she is 8 years old. My 7 and 5 year old aren't using calculators yet. Your son's school doesn't sound like our local schools so perhaps if we don'...[/quote]

Hi

Sorry Debra, my mistake Year 3.  I would be concerned if my boys had used calculators at that age.  As far as I can gather there is great importance put on 'Mental Maths' as my Year 4, this is probably were the tables would come together with other aspects. He does however find the practical exercises more exciting as he puts it. I must admit when I first attended Maths workshops at our local primary specifically held at the school to show the parents how the children were taught and also how we could help them it did seem a litle alien to me. Things had changed and the best help seemed to be that even if it seemed unusual for us it seemed better not to confuse the children and give them our method together with the one that they were taking on at school. However as time has gone on both the boys have done fine enjoying the subject and we have been surprised and pleased at the results. 

You are looking into the french system as an alternative to home education I do hope you find the system that will help your children to do well.     

 

 

[Debra]

[quote]Hi Sorry Debra, my mistake Year 3. I would be concerned if my boys had used calculators at that age. As far as I can gather there is great importance put on 'Mental Maths' as my Year 4, this is pr...[/quote]

I'm glad it worked out for yours but mine just seemed confused and turned off maths altogether.  They just kept slipping further behind.  As I was having problems with the reading issue and difficulties with trying to teach the two with problems to read at home when the school kept on pushing them to sight read, the best bet seemed to be to remove them until I had at least got them over their difficulties.  Now we're looking at moving to France, I'm trying to find out what the schooling is like there.  Our aim is to get them over the difficulties they had here - and hope they don't come across any further difficulties when they move to France and probably attend school there.   

[bigjimbishop]

Hi Debra

Glad to hear that someone is able to post some positive opinions about alternatives to state education.

I just got too wound up by the Forum Guru Trolls. I should have learnt by now that the majority of people react negatively to the subject of home ed out of what? Guilt? Ignorance? Fear or people who don't conform.

I misrepresented myself and got a whipping from the hacks, my mistake.

It's pointless to justify ones life choices when at such odds with others.

Hey ho nothing changes.

I have a french book on the subject of alternative education and the french law.

I must retrieve it from friends then I'll post the title and Author for you.

[SaligoBay]

out of what? Guilt? Ignorance? Fear or people who don't conform.

LOL, methinks bigjimbishop doth protest too much!!  (that's loosely based on something from Shakespeare, btw, I think she was a Welsh cricket player, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

Probably just simple envy at your mortgage-free, privileged life, did you think of that?  Cherche pas à compliquer les choses!    

Otherwise guilty as charged, of moving to a country where life is so expensive that private tutors are just not an option.  Sorry if it upsets you.

Be happy.   Give good vibes to your children.      

[opas]

Just read the rest of this thread...from about page 2 where I left off many moons ago!

Dick Smith made a point which we (Mr O) and I have always stressed in the UK to our eldest daughters teachers...which incidently fell on deaf ears. She was born on 8 th August, hence when she started school proper, was only just 4 years old. In the same class was a little girl , I worked with this childs mum during my pregnacy ,I was 5 months pregnant and her daughter was 5 months old, the educational developements as well as play developement was worlds apart , but both were expected to learn at the same rate in the classroom.

Our youngest was born at the end of september and she was 5 in the first few weeks of school .....her size(she is tall), developement and comportment was obvious to all, and when I went into school to help out could pick out the `young` children and relate them to our eldest....

Back to home schooling....just wish I had the Confidence and the brains to think I could do it, Oh and the patience!

Mrs O