Handwriting taught in French schools

[Debra]

My six year old is at the stage where his manuscript handwriting is quite neat and I feel he is ready to move onto cursive handwriting.  I've read on this forum that in French schools they are quite particular about their handwriting and spend a lot of time on it.  Since we are expecting our children to be trying out French school within the next year or so, I thought it might be a good idea to teach him the French style of cursive writing. 

My 7 and 8 year old have already learned cursive, but only very painstakingly and in no way fluently, so I think it would be good for them to learn the French way too - and at least that way I can sit them all down to exactly the same lesson together!  My idea is that if they are really strict on this in France then if they can already do it, at least it will be one less thing to make them stand out as being different.

My question is, are they truly very strict on this in all the schools and do they learn the same script across all schools?  A search on the internet came up with this script:

http://www.momes.net/education/ecriture/modeles/ABCDEF.html (capitals)

http://www.momes.net/education/ecriture/modeles/abcde.html (lower case)

http://www.momes.net/education/ecriture/graphismes.html (the main section of the site which contains the exercises they do).

Is this the script I should be teaching them to use?

[Mistral]

It looks close. If anything it looks a bit less "loopy" than what I usually see (especially the capitals- sometimes you feel like you are going to get illuminated script)

In answer to your questions, yes it does seem that the same thing is taught in schools all over france. And yes, all primary schools do seem to be strict about it. Maybe strict isn't the word. This is just what is expected. The strictness is more at the lower levels, less at the end of primaire and in collège/lycée.

 

[Mistral]

It looks close. If anything it looks a bit less "loopy" than what I usually see (especially the capitals- sometimes you feel like you are going to get illuminated script)

In answer to your questions, yes it does seem that the same thing is taught in schools all over france. And yes, all primary schools do seem to be strict about it. Maybe strict isn't the word. This is just what is expected. The strictness is more at the lower levels, less at the end of primaire and in collège/lycée.

having learnt to write in the UK (and I admit that I have very bad handwriting) I can't (won't) do all the loops etc. This means that my pupils sometimes have difficulty understanding what I write on the board. The main problems are "n" "m" and "r". Two bars touching the line is 'r' three bars is 'n' and four bars is 'm' for French people and i don't do it that way

 

 

[Teamedup]

Just think of what your grandparents or maybe great grandparents would have written and that is it. I don't like it. I don't think it even looks nice, if I did, maybe I would think better of it, but I don't. And I think it is a big waste of time.

 

TU, who had to learn italics at school but forgives them as that does look nice.

[chicfille]

My daughter arrived in France aged nearly 7, with neat, printed UK-style handwriting (they had just started joining up when she left), and had to re-learn to write in loopy (in both senses of the word) cursive style. I agree with TU, it's a waste of time and tends to eradicate all traces of individualism from handwriting. It's also very hard to read when written by a 5-year-old beginner as they don't learn to print lower case letters at all - they are launched headlong into joined-up loops right from the start.

That said, it's taken very seriously here, they spend months learning it and they frown upon anything less flouncy.

[opas]

I too learnt Italics and had an italic ink pen, so lots of joined up writing. My mum was a great letter writer and wrote `old fashioned` which I always thought looked realy fancy. My dad who is nearly 80 had lovely cursive handwriting untill recently and now prints everything (shakey hand).

I agree that on a 5 year old it is difficult to read the `fancy`writing,but ,If you can write that way yourself it is easier to read! Mr O cannot read our 7 year old with ease(even though It is quite neat) ,though he is a scruffy writer himself...he was a left hander and had it knocked out of him at school!  As France seems to be years behind in everything else , do they still stop children writing left handed here?

DebraA64 start them off now ! as you say things are hard enough anyway without having to start with a new way of writing as well as a new language.

Mrs O

[Mistral]

As France seems to be years behind in everything else , do they still stop children writing left handed here?

No, lefties are allowed now. Not even teachers comment on it anymore.

I have to agree about loopy handwriting seeming like a lot of time and effort for not much result. I'm horrified when my daughter wastes time going through her book looking for how to write a capital 'H' (or whatever) because she can't remember how and it has to be written the correct way. And I can't help because I never learnt it  (and refuse to) Even my husband can't remember how to do all the capitals correctly.

I find the extra loops make writing harder to read. Especially if it's written with an ink pen instead of a biro.

I used to think that all French writing looked the same but I can actually recognise about half of my pupils' work, just on their handwriting, you get quite a range of size, roundness, "loopiness"... My husband once told me that as far as he's concerned, all British people have the same handwriting. It all looks very round (and easy to read) to him

 

[Viv]

Sorry can't agree, my daughter is left handed and had very untidy writing until she came to France. The teachers' did not make a big fuss about it at all but gave her help and her writing had really improved and to be honest she is a lot happier about it too.

 

[KathyC]

Grandparents and greatgrandparents indeed! I'm only in my early fifties and this was the way we were taught to write at an ordinary local primary school at the age of 7. It is basically a modernised form of copperplate and can look very attractive when mastered. Like everything else, it takes time and effort. If you had seen the number of young people I saw when I taught at an English college, holding their pen between their second and third fingers, or even worst, holding it in a fist grip, you might be glad that the French believe in teaching proper handwriting, even if you don't like the style they choose to teach.

[Debra]

We've had the two eldest practicing it this morning and our 7 yr old son actually seems to find it easier so far than the equivalent cursive they had been learning at school. The English version he was being taught was sloping and was too much of a change from the upright manuscript they already knew, whereas the French version is still upright, just with loops added. The other big difference in the French version is that the capital letters are much more fancy, but since he's quite artistic he will probably enjoy that. He seems to be enjoying it so far.

Our 8 year old daughter was more advanced in the English cursive so she's finding the change in some of the letters more of a challenge, but has been practicing diligently today and hasn't been cribbing, so there's hope!

The youngest carried on practicing his manuscript today (before we introduce this) as after a few weeks holiday we thought he might find that tiring enough to get back into - but he's starting French script this week. He shouldn't have any more problems than he would have had with the English cursive and overall, should find it easier than the other two since he'll only learn the one method from scratch.  I do think its easier for them to learn the basic shapes of the letters by learning manuscript first, get this neat and legible and then move onto cursive and adding loops etc.  If we have any more children while in France perhaps I'll just have to teach them to write before they go to school!

I didn't learn this sort of writing at school (I was moved to a more 'modern' school just before I started to learn script) but other schools in our area did and I can remember a new teacher at our school being horrified at all our different handwriting - she showed us examples of writing from her previous pupils and we couldn't believe how neat and perfect and exactly the same it looked!  Surely this only lasts through a certain amount of childhood though, and eventually, as they get faster and more fluent and more grown up, individual styles will develop?

My parents recognise most of this as similar to the writing they were taught too, and although their writing of their letters is similar, you can still see whose writing is whose.

[Tourangelle]

I've been to university here, and although for some people their handwriting does seem to change, or they make it slightly less "flowery", or it is just a mess, others do seem to continue to do it and and indeed manage to write it at high speed!

[Debra]

Maybe some people just have better control!  My writing is neat but rather small but when I write at high speed it gets bigger and a lot less neat!

[Missy]

[quote]My six year old is at the stage where his manuscript handwriting is quite neat and I feel he is ready to move onto cursive handwriting. I've read on this forum that in French schools they are quite p...[/quote]

That handwriting took me right back to my Ecole Communale in Dept 79! right back to my instituteur telling me that the top bit of the f must be taller than the bottom bit because I always did it upside down!! how many lines of 'Françoise fait des froufrous avec des chiffons et Francis fait des flonflons'  !!  Absolutely non sensical but it had very many f for me to practice!

Indeed that is how I had to learn to write. At least the hand-writing was legible until my BEPC time (equivalent to O-level) then it just went woopsy... and now I find it faster and easier to typewrite on a key board than holding a pen!!

It makes somewhat easier reading on the examinor who has to correct all these exam-papers if the hand-writing is somekind of uniform.

My sister wrote like Leonardo de Vinci! as she is a left hander. Poor thing she would start at the right side edge of the paper and struggle to the left side! My Mother made her practice in the evening by having a mirror in front of her. So it looked like Mother was writing left handed but my Sister was at last getting the hang of it and wrote, still with her left hand, but 'the proper way' from left to right. Poor thing she hated it!

 

[Jo53]

It's awful. Instead of being enthusiastic about writing things down or, heaven forbid, expressing himself, my 7 y-o is in a constant tizzy because he has done a letter wrong, or can't remember how to do a loopy capital. A waste of time. Incidentally, by the end of the CP they had never once written anything that they had not either copied or been told word for word what to write. English cousins of the same age are writing diaries and stories, in plain but perfectly acceptable handwriting. I will be interested to see what happens in CE1.

Jo

[Debra]

Don't they do that sort of thing at home though?  (writing diaries and stories etc)  Also, can't he just do a rough draft to get the ideas down, not thinking about neatness, and then do a neat copy afterwards when he has the content right?  This is what mine always do (and did when they were at school and brought homework home).  In fact, when my daughter had a really bad spelling patch (it all just suddenly went out of the window with her for a while, for various reasons), I had her do her homework on the pc and explained how to use the spellchecker, so that she could get it all down and then copy it out neatly and with correct spellings afterwards!  Otherwise, she would have just rubbed through the paper with the amount of corrections she was making during that period!

[Teamedup]

I'm sure some kids make a diary at home or write stories, but usually the pupils here already have homework to do that is not self expression and mine would have had enough after a long school day and the homework to actually use their own imaginations on anything other than simple play.

[Debra]

Fair enough (the school day is long, I understand) but what about on non-school days?  Don't your kids do a rough draft, TU, rather than struggle for perfection on a first draft if they have to think about content?

[opas]

We always do a draught first, youngest is now in CE2 and had to write a story this weekend. To my knowledge she hasn`t been asked to do this before in school. I have tried hard to keep her English reading and writing up and have encouraged her to do little stories for that.....heaven knows how the other kids got on with their homework , unless their parents have been doing a bit of forward planning too!

I was realy impressed by the way of her use of tenses, it was only the spelling of them that needed help....and for that we used the tableau in the dictionary.

Mrs O

[Jo53]

[quote]Don't they do that sort of thing at home though? (writing diaries and stories etc) Also, can't he just do a rough draft to get the ideas down, not thinking about neatness, and then do a neat copy af...[/quote]

Er, writing stories and diaries in their free time would be quite unusual for 7-year-old boys, I think. We did encourage him to try and write a diary when we were on holiday, but 1) the concept of free writing was just so alien to him and 2) the hang-ups about forming the joined up letters meant that he quickly got discouraged and wouldn't have any more to do with it. I don't believe in pushing extra work on children if they don't want to do it, as I think it just turns them off even more.

As for doing a draft first, well, so far content has never been an issue because it's just copying. My attitude is concentrate on the content and the neatness will come later. In France it seems to be neatness first and content later. My worry is that by that time, children will have it set in their minds that writing is difficult and a boring chore.  What is stimulating about copying down phrases, where is the sense of achievement in that?

Jo

[chicfille]

Quite agree, Jo, but it's not just a boy thing - my daughters don't go in for spontaneous creative writing at home either, the prefer pretend games, drawing and rushing around the garden!

The form-before-content thing seems to be part of the system here unfortunately... I'll be watching like a hawk to see what happens as my children move through it, all the while encouraging them to question silly rules and write however they like provided it is legible!

[Teamedup]

I can safely say that my children never ever were asked to write a story from their own imagination in primary school. So no drafts to do. Anything they were asked to do was always copying or working on things that were already there. Rather like comprehension excersizes really. And ofcourse do lines of handwriting.

[KathyC]

Chicfille

I'm sure that your children's teachers will be really thrilled to know that they can look to you for full support in the work they are doing! I'm also convinced of the positive contribution you will be making to anglo-french relationships and your children's ability to fit into their new culture.

[SaligoBay]

I'm also convinced of the positive contribution you will be making to anglo-french relationships

LOL, I think chicfille's already made huge strides in the area of Anglo-French relationships!   

[chicfille]

Thanks SB!

For the record, my husband is French and my children are bi-lingual, bi-cultural and have dual nationality. We have lived in France for 8 of the past 11 years and the children have attended schools in both countries. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, so my point was simply that I hope to fill the gaps an in area where, in my opinion, the French system is weak, and gently encourage my children's individuality in areas where schools can be over-zealous (eg handwriting!).

[KathyC]

OK,apologies. That didn't sound like what you were saying before. I agree in filling gaps in what an education system offers. In England,if you want a child to have good handwriting and accurate spelling you will often have to teach this yourself of pay for a tutor. In France you would need to provide opportunities outside school for creative writing (which was the original suggestion) if you feel that's important. Personally I would prefer to be supplementing the French system as you are adding in more "fun" things and working on areas where you are less likely to need specific teaching skills. Undermining teachers in either system is likely to be counterproductive.